Diki,
You wrote.

“I guess, though, that once you decide to perform in public, playing to your OWN satisfaction is no longer enough...
You HAVE to satisfy the listener, as well! Whether it's your relatives, or Simon Cowell...
That's one of the problems with arrangers. It can lead those with NO musical ability whatsoever to assume they DO, inflict it on the public, and then we all stand around and wonder WHY arrangers have such a poor rap. They certainly didn't get it for no reason whatsoever!
To be honest, I think the 'arrogance' comes from deciding for YOURSELF that you have 'talent', no matter what other people say...!”

I replied, using your terminology,

“If a person is making a living, playing an arranger to his own satisfaction, without any musical ability whatsoever, and not satisfying his listening public, perhaps he did the right thing to ignore what other people had to say about his talent.”

Your posts, with the point your making, seems to hold a contradiction.

1.“That's one of the problems with arrangers. It can lead those with NO musical ability whatsoever to assume they DO, inflict it on the public, and then we all stand around and wonder WHY arrangers have such a poor rap. They certainly didn't get it for no reason
whatsoever!”

2.“The arranger's bad rep comes from folks with NO ability still inflicting their playing on the public. It sure as heck didn't come from GOOD players, now did it?”

3.“to pull off a paid gig, you HAVE to have some musical ability”

I feel your problem, if there is one, with arranger players, with no musical ability whatsoever, not satisfying the listener, and getting paid gigs; could resolve it’s self.
Fred Wren.

Actually, Fred, I don't know ANY arranger players with NO ability holding down a gig. Never have. Do you?

My response is to all these posts from players that seem bent out of shape when their instrument of choice gets a bad reputation precisely BECAUSE really terrible players try to perform in public (although I doubt any of them hold a payed position for more than one gig!) under the impression that, just because they THINK they sound good, they actually are!

The whole reason arrangers are SO popular with 'home' players is the instant gratification thing. Got one finger? You too can sound like a pro (or so you think!). And it's THESE players that give the arranger it's reputation. Got a problem with that? What can you do? You can't stop non-players from buying them!

I just don't get it... A piano in the hands of a great player is a wonderful thing. But in the hands of a non-player it is a horror. But somehow, piano players don't run around moaning about how their precious piano gets no respect..! I wonder why that is?

Maybe it's just because they are less concerned about the instrument getting the respect, and more concerned about themselves getting it...

I have NEVER railed about non-musicians holding down a gig. If you can keep the job, good for you! There are some EXCELLENT musicians using arrangers full time. There are some excellent singers and entertainers using arrangers to get themselves a polished accompaniment that they might NEVER be able to play real time. But it doesn't make the show any less entertaining. Or 'legitimate'. If you can keep a crowd happy, then by definition, you HAVE talent...

And then there's your Uncle Bob, who is tone deaf, can't count, and has never read a manual. But he has a PSR...

Be afraid... Be VERY afraid.

And get mad at HIM, not the messenger...

Finally, Uncle Bob...the arranger can add new dimension to your sound by giving you the advantage of sounding like a full band, all to your audiences delight.



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-20-2008).]

Diki
“And then there's your Uncle Bob, who is tone deaf, can't count, and has never read a manual. But he has a PSR...

Be afraid... Be VERY afraid. And get mad at HIM, not the messenger…”


That seems like incitement towards some one musically retarded,
What are you afraid of ?
Fred Wren

So what if someone playing is not that good right now....its a never ending learning process.....if all the ego driven so called "pros" here were so good they would be making millions of dollars, concert tours, selling thousands of CD's, etc etc ......but I I doubt it,... yet they continually put down people only trying to enjoy making music for themselves or others.
If you play good or not so good who cares....you can get better, you can still enjoy, & you can look forward to playing every day also.

Ye God's...! It's like a Three Stooges episode...

YOU guys are the ones bitching about the poor reputation of the arranger (not me, or anyone I know). I'm merely trying to point out where it comes from.

If that hits a little close to the bone, sorry...

But trying to use the public's (or other musicians') 'ignorance' or 'intimidation' or 'jealousy' as the reason is absurd..! There's only ONE reason why anyone could POSSIBLY dislike an arranger. A BAD PLAYER.

So, if you AREN'T one of these, you've got nothing to worry about, do you? And if you ARE, well, you've already bought the best possible tool to help you improve, haven't you?

Why ARE you so defensive..? Me, I could care less...

And I would have thought that only someone musically retarded would get upset about it...

That's not YOU, is it...? Didn't think so. So why the outrage?

Those types of players ARE where the rep comes from, like it or not.

You don't blame the gun, you blame the shooter...

Wow, this IS a depressing thread. You're all going around in circles saying the same NOTHING over and over. No need to bad-mouth each other since we all are great playing pros. And for those who don't read the SZ, they'll never know...



Go Red Wings!!!

Fred
“In any subject if you want to excel then you need to learn the rules from the most competent teacher possible.
In most disciplines there are those who are highly qualified, those who have learnt to the best of their ability, and those who are self taught, with varying degrees of competence.
I’m sure that each person could justify to their own satisfaction, their level of competence in their chosen subject, which may or may not be accepted by another person, depending on that person’s level of arrogance.”

Thank you Diki for your contribution to my post, you have helped to confirm for me, what I thought.

Good-bye,
Fred Wren