'Cause it's populated by 'arranger-players' with feelings of inadequacy playing 'home' keyboards. Many in this population think that 'technology' is needed to free us from the discipline and training needed to master one-finger chords. I couldn't agree more.

chas

PS: for those unfamiliar with the expression, tongue-in-cheek........

But seriously, Ian, which of the other forums has the activity, volatility, loyalty, and plain ol' entertainment value, of SZ. Which one do you personally spend more time at? See what I mean?

Well Chas, this place is like a great big dysfunctional family...how can we not feel at home?

It's the first place I log in and the last one I visit.

AND...I've actually learned a few things about those "computers with a keybed attached".

Fun? Entertainment? Somewhere between getting a new train set and watching someone with clown shoes and a spinning bow-tie.

Ian





[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-20-2008).]

Chas maybe your right. Whats the use?
If you cant beat em, Join em! Maybe I take things too serious, I always have been this way in my life. Its just that I feel very seriously about playing music & I'm trying to be a better player & learn as much as I can from players better then me so that maybe one day soon I can try playing for others maybe at Nursing Homes & small parties in my community...you have to start somewhere right? My biggest accomplishment was to ween myself of One Finger chords & play in fingered mode. That took almost 2 years....now I'm more confident & my songs sound more interesting.
I even took Dnj's advice to play blind-folded as much as possible so I would learn to play effortlessly, not look at my hands as much & concentrate more on Audience Eye Contact....it really helps. I'm getting better every day.

One two cha cha cha

I don't see any reason that John DiLeo needs to apologize for his recent messages. Out of all the near-hokum on this board for the last few days, he and a few others are the only ones that sounded cognizant and "in touch" with reality.

Chas and Dickie....most times I agree and welcome your postings but this time I think you did John a disservice, he being a newer member. All he did was try and express his love of music and “playing” music. He doesn't seem to be caught up in this arranger wars situation.


What did he say here that was so offensive (or as some said "defensive")?

".....all this negativity toward Arrangers doesnt help anyone. Its really not needed. I wish the energy was put to help people who use arrangers so they may become more productive in their ability.
We should be helping each other NOT bashing or demeaning the very thing we love mainly Arranger KB's. I want to get to be a better player & learn from people better then me who have traveled the same road. Is that asking too much?"

"But it just seems we're always defending our playing & our purchases & what's right & wrong. When I would rather just discuss playing techniques, tips & tricks, etc wouldn't you?.. & also how we can help each other play better no matter what level people think they're at or what type music they enjoy performing."

I wish more of the members in SZ would talk like this. Instead John was labeled as "defensive" when in reality most everyone else caught up in this discussion was in "defense" mode. I would like to have seen all the energy dispensed in this thread used to trade musical ideas or just "practicing" their instruments. Are any of us any smarter now than when this topic first appeared? No...nothing accomplished but ruffled feathers. The smarter members used it as pure entertainment.

In one of his postings, John talks about how we'll be producing music in the future. I thought that was very poignant. Maybe it wasn't relevant to that particular topic, but wasn't he putting us in touch with something very real that would be more productive to discuss in another thread?

Now I'm not John's personal trainer and I don't know him at all, but he certainly speaks for me and a few (very few) others on these boards. Whether he's a rank beginner or a seasoned pro impersonating a novice player, the important thing is he's in love with the music and NOT the music machine. I put into question form what he has already stated. WHY is no one on these boards discussing making music? I don't expect anything to change, but I'm really curious about the reason for each of you, WHY you're not trading musical ideas instead of bickering over equipment?

(not sure how to end this with a "smilie!")

I believe Ketron never designed instruments for home use. The first product I knew of was the
mid-70's Auto Orchestra.

R.

Every "Profession" has it's entry point

For doctors its a Degree and a test score
For lawyers its a bar exam (with or without a degree)

For Cosmologists its a state board
For musicians..it's a paycheck.

IF you ger paid and make a living for what you do you are a professional. The argument here seems to be who is the BETTER professional?

SOmeone who can read every note or someone who is blind. Someone who can play the classics or someone who can play Rock......

WE are talking ART here where subjectivity rules. No one ever asked me for a degree when hiring me. No one ever checked my credentials. My credentials were obvious as soon as I sat down. Either i could cut what they wanted or not. Does not matter if I have a Doctorate in Music. IF I cannot play what they want NOW Im not getting the gig.

You cannot equate the definition of "professional" on the same scale with other non subjective trades no matter how much those who spent years with a teacher and rote excersizes were accomplished.

Yeah it can be diheartening for some to see someone with no training get work on a plastic keyboard with few knobs. But thats life..

My wife has had professional training and can sight read. She has played in shows where she had to read and does singles. Her keyboard is a Roland RD-700 and a 61 key Casio. LOL She has never been out of work in 30 years.

It does not matter what one plays oon. It only matters whether the listener is pleased.

THIS is where the thread went south. Go re-read it. There wasn't ANY arranger-bashing, or mention of it up to that point. Unless you consider being informed that there ARE some musical things you CAN'T do on an arranger 'bashing'. You don't really feel THAT defensive, do you?

There are things you can do on an arranger that a WS can't do... Are YOU 'bashing' workstations? Or are you just pointing out differences in workflow and techniques?

If you are not 'bashing' them, why do you assume that everyone is 'bashing' you? Talk about a thin skin!

Or is this just spilling over from other threads, where the only documented 'arranger bashing' is the tirade by Simon Cowell of all people. As if anyone cares, for a starter. He's the one who thinks Clay Aiken was 'talented', for Pete's sake! But take that awful 'Star Wars' clip into consideration, and you can see he has a point...!

OF COURSE, you aren't who he is talking about, are you? But have you watched the clip? Remind you of anyone you ever heard? Sure it did... Let's face it folks. An arranger, in fact the exact same arranger, can simultaneously be either a 'pro' instrument, a 'home' keyboard, or a 'toy' for a non-musician to muck around with. It all depends on who is sitting at the bench.

And just because this forum is populated by primarily the first two, that doesn't mean a LOT of the third type don't exist. And THOSE are the kind of players that Simon (so far, the only person that anyone has actually QUOTED 'bashing' arrangers) is railing about, and to be honest (let's try a little of that rather than knee-jerk outrage ), haven't YOU felt the same way on occasion, when you hear someone truly awful play the arranger?

Or is it ALL music to your ears, no critical faculties whatsoever, if it is simply being played on your personal favorite instrument? Me, I don't care what it is played on. If it bad, I don't care if it's a piano, a WS or an arranger. It's JUST PLAIN BAD.

The trouble is, it's easier to be bad on an arranger, and still have the semblance of music, at least enough to fool yourself. But the impressions of Simon, and apparently all these legions of arranger 'bashers' that mysteriously, I have never heard from (that DonM wishes would go away - hard to make something go away you can't hardly find!), sure didn't come from NOWHERE...

Where do YOU think they got this impression? Come on, I want to hear this one... What makes them think this way in the first place?

Or are they ALL secret WS players, who are mad at all the WS 'bashing' they hear over here?!

Look, I'm not looking down on, making fun of, being mean to, or doing a disservice to, John and I apologize if I came across that way. However, when someone, by their own admission, is "just starting to transition from one-finger chords" and then in the next breath is asking about the appropriateness of wearing a tuxedo to the gig (yes, GIG) in order to appear more "professional", it's bound to uh, raise some questions. Also, on most any board such as this, with old, opinionated, battle-hardened, veterans, any 'newbie' that comes in on day one and proceeds to give us all a morality lecture, is likely to come under some fire. It would not be unheard of for someone to suggest that they "get a feel for the board first". One aspect of that is to realize that there are all levels of players here with varying temperaments, playing a wide variety of instruments. What is common among us is that we all own and play arranger keyboards. This equates to a vast amount of knowledge with a huge potential for learning and gathering information and opinion.......but probably not if you walk in the door on day one and proceed to lecture this wonderfully dysfunctional family on how it should act. I can just about guarantee that someone will rise up and find a nice way to tell you to 'go smack it'.

By and large, this group is as accepting as most special interest groups, and most are willing and eager to help neophytes get up to speed. The secret, I think, is that if you're a neophyte, stay out of the little 'side wars' and by all means, don't precipitate one (unless you've REALLY got the stomach for it ). Some will disagree with me on this, but that's ok; I'm confident that truth will prevail .

chas

Chas I'm sorry if I offended you in anyway. Thank you for the info on SZ tolerance & tips, I appreciate it. As for me I guess I just read about all the great veteran players here doing so well, Zuki 56 NH in a month, Beakybird 500 jobs a year, etc. WOW! & quite frankly I'm a little jealous & envious of them all. Maybe I'm trying to move too quickly absorbing most of what is needed to perform for the public, but with some determination, & all the help received from the SZ I am sure I will in time be able to fulfill my dream in the near future.