Don't get us confused, John... He's the smart one, I'm the good looking one!

John, to be honest, that's exactly the point I am trying to make... Techniques, tips and tricks, trying to help us play better!

Rediscovering what your LH can do, if you already knew, is one of the things I bring up a LOT... There ARE workarounds that can let you play primarily in arranger mode, but for styles and songs that WOULD benefit from these two handed techniques, still allow you to use them. Rather than just give up and say 'I GOT to play the chords, no matter WHAT'.

You're a Yamaha user, aren't you? You have the benefit of synced style and SMF sections. Use the arranger for most of the song, and for the section you want to do the two hand thing, prepare up a sequence, start it while you are playing, it takes over seamlessly, do your thing, and go back to the arranger mode when you are done.

Of course, you HAVE to prepare up the sequence in advance... THAT'S the benefit of the Chord Sequencer or the looper. You do it on the fly, every night a bit different if you choose, without any preparation. Best of BOTH worlds!

You play sax, huh? Wouldn't it be nice to blow a solo whenever you felt like it, rather than just over sequences? Looper or CS would allow you to do this...

The whole point is I am trying to encourage some here to try to reinvestigate their band roots, and some of the techniques that are VERY effective, but close to impossible to pull off in regular arranger play. But rather than do what so many HAVE to, I am investigating equipment and software that allows us to COMBINE these things, not REPLACE the very things we all love! I am not advocating you STOP using LH chords, RH solos. I am merely suggesting you ADD to it...

Sounds like a 'playing technique tip and trick' to ME, anyway...

AMEN to that AMEN.

I consider the top of the line arranger keyboards to be "Pro" keyboards..not because they they do all the work for us...but they give us choices ...the way we want to use them...

To me ..the arranger is the finest keyboard available..I do not want another work station keyboard [the name implies all we need to know...you have to work at getting a finish product..let alone pulling off something "live"]..For me, and especially my board of choice, allows me every possible method to choose..be it for performing, writing, or just having fun...

These "pro" keyboards can be played as stand a lone instruments..and work in any band situation [without lacking quality sound]..and are great as left hand bass, drums and piano for our trio "Jazz " feel...
Instruments as the unit I play, also gives me a great drawbar organ [with draw bars]..

These "Pro" arrangers give us all the benefits..MP3/wav playback and record[Korg and Yamaha]..SMF playback and record with "super " editing {Roland}
Mic inputs/ and harmonizers that have no equal [Roland, Korg}..

How can any one with hands on experience not agree with us...They are great "pro" keyboards..that allow us to produce at any level..

Don , you have my AMEN too!!!

Don I concure with you & Fran & others here.
Arrangers are here to stay, home or pro its all good.

Yep, I agree...especially regarding the "work" part...I hate work...that's why I "play" for a living.

Hard work never killed anybody, but why take a chance?

Ian

Your most creative work to date - LMAO

I think this has much more to do with how some people are perceived than whether some keyboard is 'pro' or not. For instance, some of us choose not to use arrangers in live performance. I'm one of those. I don't think a jazz club is the right venue for an arranger keyboard and at the moment, that's the only venue I play. That doesn't mean that I look down on arrangers or arranger players. It's just a question of the right tool for the venue. I also wouldn't take an organ trio into a C & W venue. I've invested over 6 grand in arranger keyboards over the last couple of years, and play one of them almost daily. I use voices from both in recording although I have at least several TOTL workstations (I like some of the arranger voices better). I also use one (PA1x) as the handiest of handy drum machines (traded my DR880 to Dan01 2 yrs. ago) for putting together a rough track. It's easier than the average drum machine. Working with singer/songwriters, I can flesh out a new/original tune in less than an hour. The arranger is a great tool, no doubt about it.

When I see some or most rational, reasonable, diplomatic, members, who themselves are seasoned pros, starting to get defensive and viewing alternative points-of-view about arranger usage, as being anti-arranger, then I know it's about time to stop having this discussion. Like I said before, who cares how someone else classifies your instrument of choice. JMO.

chas

When I bought my casio MT-30 mini-keyboard 30 yrs ago, I never considered it a toy. It cost me a whopping $100. To this day I still don't consider it a toy. I have used it on gigs with my trio and played accompaniment with it for my choir and done some comping with it at parties. It doesn't have any rhythms or styles, just a few different sounds, sustain and vibrato. Nobody who ever heard me play it called it a toy.
Mt-30

Today I play an E-60 that costs more than $ 1500 and does just about everything but wipe my ***, yet I have to defend myself against buying a toy?? Who cares. As long as it does the job I need it to do, it becomes a PRO piece as soon as I use it as such and say it is.

[This message has been edited by cassp (edited 04-19-2008).]

What's there to defend?

I believe there are those who have played many years struggling with Hanon and developing playing skills that are or seem to be equaled by those who can now earn a living with limited training and arranger keyboards.

I understand the frustration. But also appreciate more the idea that those who did not have years of study and just a pair of ears can enjoy making music just the same that is appreciated by the general public.

People don;t realize that accomplished songwriters write the song....the melody and words. They HIRE producers,Great players and Arrangers to turn their song into ear candy.

With these arrangers we have those producers,players and Arrangers at our finger tips. That canot ever be a bad thing.

Its the same as the whole Home recording studio argument. Many engineers in major studios won't give home studios respect even though they all record in a digital format that can and does rival any pro studio's output to the common man. Their lively hoods are and have been at risk.

We can now produce movies with professional results, music, and many other creative endeavors reserved for the few not so very long ago with limited equipment and training thanks to technology.

That's not a bad thing.

------ Quote Wikipedia:

Equipment
"Professional-grade" equipment is built to higher standards than "consumer grade" equipment. Copyright laws that require copy protection in consumer equipment sometimes contain exemptions for professional grade audio (audio tape, CD) and video (VHS, DVD players) equipment ( see Digital Millennium Copyright Act http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Millennium_Copyright_Act ).
This equipment is usually more expensive and sometimes unavailable to the general public. The term may however also be used as a simple marketing ploy, as it is normally not protected or legally defined.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional

About Work

Definition
A professional is a worker required to possess a large body of knowledge derived from extensive academic study (usually tertiary), with the training almost always formalized.

Professionals are at least to a degree self-regulating, in that they control the training and evaluation processes that admit new persons to the field, and in judging whether the work done by their members is up to standard. This differs from other kinds of work where regulation (if considered necessary) is imposed by the state, or where official quality standards are often lacking. Professions have some historical links to guilds in these regards.

Professionals usually have autonomy in the workplace—they are expected to utilize their independent judgement and professional ethics in carrying out their responsibilities.[4] This holds true even if they are employees instead of working on their own. Typically a professional provides a service (in exchange for payment or salary), in accordance with established protocols for licensing, ethics, procedures, standards of service and training / certification.

The above definitions were echoed by economist and sociologist Max Weber, who noted that professions are defined by the power to exclude and control admission to the profession, as well as by the development of a particular vocabulary specific to the occupation, and at least somewhat incomprehensible to outsiders.[citation needed]

Therefore it would be appropriate to state that a 'true' professional must be proficient in all criteria for the field of work they are practising professionally in. Criteria include following:

1. The highest academic qualifications - i.e., university college/institute
2. Expert and specialised knowledge in field which one is practising Professionally
3. Excellent manual/practical & literary skills in relation to profession
4. High quality work in (examples): creations, products, services, presentations, consultancy,
primary/other research, administrative, marketing or other work endeavours
5. A high standard of professional ethics, behaviour and work activities while carrying out one's
profession (as an employee, self-employed person, enterprise, business, company, or partnership/associate/colleague, etc.)

----- End Quote.

Well,
I'm happy that I'm a pro amateur having a lot of fun playing (read: pressing buttons and keys)
on a modern "toy" called arranger keyboard, karaokemachine, midifileplayer or whatever!
Sometimes it even happens that somebody manage to guess what tune or song I'm trying to perform.

Happy Playing
GJ