No need to apologize to me, John. I'm not offended. No need for humility, either. you won't find THAT in large supply either. I'm sorry if I sounded harsh but there are really no 'arranger wars' here, and no real arranger-bashing either. If a post gives your knee and involuntary jerk, then I suggest that you re-read it and make sure that what got a rise out of you is actually what was said. Sometimes 'buzz words' will jump out in a phrase and make us respond to something that isn't there. Happens to everyone, me included. Saying that learning a traditional keyboard instrument might give one a better foundation in music than an arranger keyboard, does not constitute arranger-bashing. It's just an opinion; not even shared by all. There has to be room for these kinds of non-confrontational opinions. You should always feel free to disagree which can easily be done without making it a moral issue. Welcome to SynthZone. There is a lot of information here from a lot of sources. You always want to position yourself so that people WANT to help you. Good luck in your future endeavors. You'll probably do very well. You seem to have the drive and the passion.

chas

Just try to remember, John, that the number of gigs you do a year is not the indicator of how good or bad a musician you are. It's the indicator of how successful a self-promoter you are, how well you tailor your presentation and repertoire to your audiences, and how good a businessman you are (and how hard you want to work at it!)...

There are studio musicians here, songwriters, composers of film music, even some who play primarily 'live'... Just because they aren't playing 500 NH gigs a year makes them no less 'good musicians'. There's a LOT more to being a good musician than just the QUANTITY of jobs you can do (this is NOT me saying those with a lot of gigs are bad musicians, just that those WITHOUT that hectic schedule may be just as good! ).

Try to take advice and help from whatever source it comes from, and don't get defensive when it might involve learning non-arranger (or PART-arranger) techniques. Every bit helps. I learn PLENTY from hanging around here, and I certainly don't get worked up about the source!

But chas is right... Especially as you are in that 'newbie' stage, lecturing us on what constitutes 'accepted' use for an arranger, or how we should use our long-learned techniques comes off as a bit brash...

Diki,

That's a big 10 - 4 !!
Appreciate the advice. I hope to grow as I go along, experience wise & equipment wise.
The SZ is a great source for learning.

Being a good musician and a professional musician are mutually exclusive terms in many examples.

Anyone here can like play circles areound Paul Mc Cartney or Ray Charles on the keyboards and not be considered great musicians. (Probably because tey have not achieved the professional LEVEL of the latter which somehow crowns them witnh great musician status...)

On the other hand someone who plays like Nicholas Angelic and has not achieved the professional level ma be considered a lesser musician.

Arrangers shine for songwriters who do not want to play the parts in the arrangement of heir music because those who can and do are better suited to it. Those of us who had workstations or years had to play all the parts and arrange all the orchestrations which although was fun was time consuming and less than it could be.

A workstation is a hand held hammer. An Arranger is a powered hammer. They both serve to build a house equally as strong. However the carpenter with the single hammer will take longer to build the same house.

Who's lecturing now?

John DiLeo,

Ref: your apology

The first thing you learn, even before your first scale run, is......

NEVER LET 'EM SEE YOU SWEAT!

As they say in the "hood"...it's all about respect! You were doing well up to the apology.

Lucky

One thing you'll find ANY real artist willing to say, whether they are 'technically' proficient or not, is that they are ALWAYS willing to grow, to learn new stuff, to not go around and say that 'this is all I need to know'...

Which, from the post of a FEW here, is EXACTLY what they are saying. 'Why should I learn any traditional techniques, if my arranger already does it for me?'

That, folks, is the path to stagnation. Sure, buy a new arranger, get a few new styles, and you can SOUND like you've learned something, but that's the arranger, not you. What YOU are doing hasn't changed an iota. That may, indeed, be good enough for you. But trust me, NONE of the artists whose songs you are playing ever felt this way, and most of the PLAYERS here feel the same way.

If your goal is to put on a show with the minimum amount of effort and the least amount of shedding, well, there's always karaoke... And if your goal is to learn as little as possible to achieve the same result on an arranger, you can't exactly blame us poor musicians for pointing that out, now can you?

RH, LH, it makes little difference. The minute you stop and say 'I don't need to learn any more', you stagnate, even if your arranger moves on.

If your goal is this mythic 'the arranger does it all so I don't have to learn to play, and I can concentrate on entertaining my audience', well, that's certainly legitimate, and you certainly can have a perfectly good career . But getting indignant when it gets the inevitable response from a forum full of musicians (and only a few 'entertainers' with minimal keyboard skills) who realize that you are NOT 'cheating', only 'cheating yourself', kind of defeats the point, doesn't it?

You've already decided you don't care (by deciding NOT to try and learn to play), so why get indignant? There's PLENTY here who'll CLAIM they want to learn and grow, but oddly, will get defensive when perfectly reasonable advice is offered. Strange...

Anyhow... Anyone who has read this post and thinks that my saying 'You' is in any way directed at them personally has got it wrong. I am using the plural 'You' and it's meant as a general comment. It's hard for me to say "we' when I am definitely NOT in the 'I don't need to learn' camp! For as long as I have been playing, I have ALWAYS considered that, even if I CAN get technology to do it for me, I STILL need to learn how to do it for myself...

It's how you grow, it's how you don't get stale, it's how you prepare for whatever technology and the changing musical tastes of the public forces you to do NEXT... Let's face it, if there ever WERE a backlash from the public about listening to machines rather than humans, those of you that invest the time in learning traditional keyboard technique will still be working, and those that rely 100% on the arranger to do it for them will have problems. I'm not saying that's likely, but who knows where technology and the public is heading? Those that use their arranger to better their general skills will have options, and those that use them so the DON'T have to learn will have fewer...

Each of us needs to make that decision for ourselves. But, if you walk into a room full of doctors, and proudly announce that you are ready to operate on any of their kids, simply because you have a laptop and WebMD, well, you are likely to get the same response as you might round here announcing you 'don't need to learn' how to play well...

We are never more discontented with others than when we are discontented with ourselves-Henri Frederic Amiel

That's it in a nutshell, Ian.

And good quote... I had to Google him!

I often feel some wander around here like an Edgar Allan Poe character, always falsely hearing OTHERS say what they are secretly saying to themselves...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 04-22-2008).]