Exactly Ian....good post and so true.
If anyone thinks Yamaha aint doing their homework you are very mistaken.....little changes are common when it remains in the "Tyros family" line each release.
When we see a "Totally new series Model" comes out in years to come only then we will see major changes if at all.I feel at this time we are in an Arranger KB "LULL"....& if you look back a few years of releases with all models big strides have been made. Amazing things are being done with arrangers so dont regress or forget how far we've come to this point & enjoy what we have as more will follow in the near future.

DP the Optimist

Once again, the assumption that ONLY Yamaha could POSSIBLY be right, and a dizzying spin to justify it...

Do Korg or Roland 'pro' arrangers get their WS divisions in a tizzy? Do either of them forbid a 76, and force them to build 'home' quality arrangers?

The Big 3 go pretty much head to head in WS sales and competition for features the users of WS's want. But, apparently, Yamaha are the only ones SO insecure about their WS sales that they forbid the arranger division to make something that might offer a choice to a potential customer?

I doubt that...

I just believe Yamaha have chosen to only compete in one market after their ONE attempt to penetrate the 'pro' market the first time was such an abject failure. This was a failure to build the correct product for the market, NOT a failure in the market itself... IMO

It still exists... other companies base their entire strategy around this market, rather than the toy market (which is where you find the majority of Yamaha arrangers sold - toy departments in Wal-Marts and department stores). The truth is that none of the other arranger makers in the Big 3 make toys as well as arrangers (or, at least, a LOT less). Yamaha have their 'comfort zone', and straying outside it makes them very uncomfortable.

That's their decision, but it certainly, as Roland and Korg PROVE, does not disprove the existence of the market, nor it's profitability. Of course, it's a shrinking profitability, but with the global economy the way it is, I doubt Yamaha themselves will equal the sales of the T2 with the T3... Especially as how close the S900 comes to it's capabilities, at over $2000 less in price.

But anyway, whatever happened to good old fashioned capitalism? Whatever happened to 'kill the competition, and winner take all'? Whatever happened to the days when a company would make a product at a small loss, even, just to make a competitor go out of business?

As little as Yamaha would need to do to tool up a low production run of 76 S900's (that would put the Roland E60 under serious stress) and 76 T2/3's (which would give the G70 and PA2XPro some tight times), it just strikes me they are losing an opportunity to corner the ENTIRE arranger market, not just the 'home' one...

(Radio plays Sonny and Cher's "I Got You, Babe")

Okay, campers, rise and shine,
and don't forget your booties
because it's COOOLD out there
today!

It's cold out there everyday.
What is this— Miami Beach?

Diki... right on!
It's political... meanwhile we don't get what we want...
Lee

Could be a bit of divisional rivalry going on Lee...I think in a company as large and diverse as Yamaha, that would be expected.

Roland make a killer 76 note arranger, the G70, that many here on SZ consider a "pro" instrument, but it's sales are very slow in comparison to their Fantom series, at least according to my dealer contacts.

Korg arrangers aren't doing much better against their synth/workstaion counterparts...although the jury is still out on the PA2XPRO.

It's a strange market.

Only one that seems to pull it off with aplomb is Yamaha...why?

They sell a lot of arrangers because they are marketed to home users...there's no confusion about the intended buyer...unlike Korg and Roland who seem to be trying to convince the pros that their arrangers are "pro" and the home users that the instruments are for "home"...they are trying to please both, and are creating a sense of doubt about to whom (and for what) these instruments are really intended.

I don’t know what the key to success is, but the key to failure is trying to please everyone.

Ian

How do we know that Yamaha is not planning a 76 note arranger based on the S900?

Perhaps the next S-series will include a 76 note instrument?

OR...maybe the T4 will have a 76 note FSX keybed?

It's all possible, and highly probable if the marketing mavens feel it will be in the company's best interest.

IF they do...I believe they will continue to be marketed as "home" keyboards...not "pro".

As I said in my previous post...there will be no confusion about the intended buyer.


Ian

Because you told us, Ian! With great authority, and hints of 'insider knowledge'

I think we are making FAR too much out of the 'home' and 'pro' market issue. The majority of people that buy WS's are not 'pros' either. And the vast majority of OMB's that use arrangers ARE 'pros', no matter WHAT arranger they use.

The main difference, IMO, is that the WS market does not go as far downscale as the arranger market. Yamaha, Casio, even Roland arrangers have models that are little more than 'toys'. Consequently, these divisions get run by people that are comfortable in that market (maybe differently in Roland's case) but despite the fact that they make very 'pro' keyboards in certain aspects, especially at the high end of the line, those divisions are being run by managers that think 'toy' first, and have little knowledge or respect for the high end of their own product line.

WS lines, OTOH, don't go down NEARLY that far... Your bottom of the line WS is still quite a complex beast, not that far removed from it's MOTL cousins. And the divisions get run by managers that think about the TOTL first, BOTL second... (IMO)

I simply feel Yamaha have the tragedy of matching a high end 'pro' arranger OS with a low-end 'home' sound and build/size, and Roland have the tragedy of matching a 'pro' high end build/size and sound with a VERY 'home' OS.

BOTH companies have serious identity problems, but at least Yamaha's problem does NOT get in the way of sales! I don't think the 'divisional rivalry' theory works, because, if it were true, you would see Yamaha's arranger division holding on MUCH tighter to their SA technology and arranger aspects, both of which have been purloined by the MotifXS line.

My prediction? We probably WON'T see the fabled 76 S900. But we WILL see the arranger paradigm make more and more inroads to the Motif line, as these loop-station WSs need more friendly control systems than they do now...

Sonically, they are already what most T2 users are asking for (at least the OMB 'pro' ones), better in most sound categories than the T2, and they only have to add the ability to set the loops up in an Intro/Var/Fill/Ending structure, rather than the DJ-like 'cue up the next loop' system they have now, and the Tyros market (and S900, if a lower end model is produced, a sort of super MM6 thing) will be under serious stress.

When this happens, I see a radical move towards the BOTL, as MOTL and TOTL users head over to the WS line... If Yamaha Arranger won't give them what they want, they'll get it SOMEWHERE...

The Amazing Kreskin predicts

Oh come on, Diki...you know what I meant...the next S-series, not this one...gee, I gotta explain everything.

I can't predict what Yamaha will do in two or three years time...I'm not THAT good.

I really feel Korg and Roland are using the wrong approach, but that already looks to be substantiated with the dismal G70 sales....maybe the PA2XPRO will do better, but I can't see it happening.

They are trying to convince two different types of buyers...and failing.

Too bad...so sad.

Ian

PS...I feel the T3 will do very well...lots of T1 owners that resisted the T2 will move up, as well as some S900 owners and perhaps some Roland users wanting a more portable and better sounding arranger.



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-29-2008).]

Hate to say it BUT we could be headed for a ARRANGOKE KB in the near future

Anything with an MP3 player and vocal canceler already IS, Donny

The trick is, just like One Finger Chords, you don't HAVE to use it...

And Ian, sorry! But I catch so much flack for ASSuming things, I guess I just try to reply to EXACTLY what is written

What I want to know is, Ian, why is the market any different now from ten years ago? Basically, the same people are using arrangers now, that used them back in the G1000's day, and NO-ONE is accusing that of being a failure...

The only thing I see much different is the appalling jump in prices, as dubiously useful features get tacked onto what used to be a thriving market. NONE of us needed a vocal harmonizer ten years ago, none of us needed MP3 players, samplers, motorized screens (what's up with that? - just one more thing to go wrong!), dual mike inputs...

But all of these things have added considerably to the cost of modern TOTL arrangers, and their complexity, and in all fairness, aren't generally the things the 'home' user uses, anyway. Most of them buy an arranger to PLAY, not have it play FOR them!

Maybe we are just pricing the TOTLs out of many's reach?

Well, my friend, I did write, "Perhaps the next S-series will include a 76 note instrument?"

But that's okay...apology accepted.

Anyway, the "pro" arranger market is competing against other things...especially the DJ...and Karaoke to name only two...even I-pod dances are becoming popular.

But this is not an issue if it's a home keyboard.

A home keyboard is a hobby.

Yep, some arranger prices are up, but actually the S900 is less expensive than the 3K when it was new and has more features...perhaps the Tyros3 will be less...surely it should be around the same price as the T2.

I don't like the tacked on stuff any more than you, but the competition sets the bar...and if it's a home keyboard...it's probably going to be stuff that will be liked and even used.

C'est la vie.

Ian







[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 04-29-2008).]