I read this post with interest. Many argue about what is cheating.

Karaoke is random audience members performing to pre recorded music they select. Without inviting the audience to sing alone, it's not Karaoke. Period. Pre recorded music does not make it so.

Some of the biggest spectacular showroom shows in Vegas can be condered "Karaoke Shows" by that definition just using using pre recorded music or an Arranger and rhythm section providing the sound of 40 pieces. I do not think performers (especially those who earn a living as such) can maintain an elitists point of view with regard to what the public is buying.

Many "musicians" have been put out of work by Karaoke AND SAMPLERS/Arrangers which is pre-recorded music. Theres the resentment. However those who adapted and embrace the latest trends work forever. As long as you are playing notes with your right hand and letting the keyboard arrange chords for you in the left you are NOT considered Karaoke? But you get up and walk into the audience you are?

I know many people who see OMB performers who feel the only difference from them and Karaoke is they don't invite the audience to sing whether or not the leave the keys.....THAT'S Karaoke to them.

One could say synths put many musicians out of work. We all search for that Holy Grail perfect acoustic instrument in our keyboards. WHY not just hire a player instead of allowing someone elses' style arrangement play the part perfectly with a perfect sample?

I know you know the answer to that. I also know those who are elitists in their thinking becasue there was a time where you HAD to suffer through years of Hanon to get work as a professional and now can buy a keyboard today spend 6 months learning chords and theory and actually be paid to entertain is unsettling to many who value their skills and feel the paying public should as well over those who did not put in the work and time.

I suggest there are plenty of those steeped in the classics with extraordinary skills are upset to see the successes of the self taught collecting handsome royalties and paychecks as well while they wait for the phone to ring for a job playing BG music for shoppers in Neiman Marcus.

Anyone who dares perform with anything but live players can be considered a Karaoke act like it by the stated example. A CD is nothing but a recorded sample played back as accompaniment.

No one who posts in an Arranger forum should have anything negative to say about cheating unless you earn your living playing solely a piano with hammers and strings.

http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/015754.html

http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/000869.html
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/013894.html
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/017456.html

I always thought there were two components to karaoke....the pre-recorded music with the lead vocals removed AND the lyrics being displayed in time as a guide for the amatuer singer.

To me, it's always been a form of entertainment, nothing more, nothing less. It sure has taken a lot of heat and for what, because it was meant to provide a few laughs, a few smiles.

I say this, "If you can sing, really SING, then leave the confines of your man-made keyboard and get out there and play nature's greatest musical instrument, the human voice!"

Get out there and SING!

-mike

I think Donny makes a good point.

chas

BTW, anyone see the video of those Indian babies being bounced off a sheet from 50ft.? I think we should try that with the next SZ'er to raise this issue.......but without the sheet.

[This message has been edited by cgiles (edited 05-02-2008).]

I don't consider karaoke, utilizing midi backing tracks, or utilizing arranger styles cheating in and of itself.

The only thing I don't like about many of the commercially produced backing tracks is that typically (and often unsuccesfully) attempt to emulate the hit artist's cover version arrangement of the song.

Except for a few obligitory audience dance tunes (where I'll call upon midi/mp3 backing) that demand sounding exactly like the recording (right down to the bass line & expected instr riffs), I prefer playing & singing in arranger mode as it offers the creative freedom to improvise & add a fresh interpretation & twist to my music, yet still allows me the option to preserve the overall feel (groove) of the original song if desired.

Karaoke parties can be fun amateur entertainment, but for pro level musical performance demands, I feel arranger mode playing offers far more creative flexibility to make our music & songs stand out as our own.

The only kind of music performance cheating I detest is "audience deception" ei: tricking the audience into thinking you're playing the keys when you're merely pretending to play them (with the keys muted), and the piano/keyboard solo supplied by the backing track (MP3/Midi) instead. I feel the same way about lip syncing singers.

Scott

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/indian-baby-tossing-ritual/1763784626

What? you mean WWF Wrestling is fake also?

If you walk away from your keyboard whilst IT IS PLAYING...meaning you aren't playing it at all...and you are singing over the SMF that is playing...THAT smacks of Karaoke to me.

You are still singing over pre-recorded backing tracks...isn't that what Karaoke performers do?

What makes it different?

I fail to see that having an opinion that this is Karaoke makes a person an elitist...I think it makes them a realist.

I don't have anything against an entertainer performing this way...not at all...several SZ'ers can do this very well, and, maybe they don't do for their whole performance...but I think it should be recognized for what it is....THAT'S ALL!

Ian

First of all... Welcome to Groundhog Day - again!

Secondly, I might point out that at those Vegas shows, you don't see someone PRETENDING to play a keyboard. The backing is flown in for the singers and dancers, and when they do BOTH, the singing is often flown in - you don't think you can run around like a madman and sing accurately at the same time? But even THAT is frowned upon even in Vegas when it is a 'headliner' doing the lip-syncing.

Use an arranger for this purpose, while you sing OR dance for your audience, chicken hat or not, and there is no 'cheating'. Your audience can see what they are getting.

It is when the majority of what they are hearing LOOKS like you are playing it, but you are not. That's dishonest.. IMO. OF COURSE they know the bass and drums are tracks... there's no drummer, and no bassist. But if the large majority of what they are hearing is tracks, and you are just playing a solo (if that!), you at least ought to be upfront with them. Or at least accept your 'karaoke' tag with grace..

There's nothing wrong with karaoke at all... as long as you admit you are doing it (even if only to yourself!). Traditional karaoke needs NO admission, because it is one singer, in front of a TV screen, with no instruments anywhere. The audience knows full well what they are getting, and, in truth, are expected to join in, not sit back and accept it as traditional 'entertainment'. It is the modern day equivalent of the 'pub sing-along'. The fun comes from joining in, not just watching!

But leave the vast majority of your show to a machine, while you play a minimalist part (if anything), and where, exactly, IS the difference between you and karaoke?

Do a LOT more, play everything you possibly can, use as little of the machine backing as you can humanly get away with, and for starters, the audience will SEE you playing that, as long as you don't hide away behind a shield of equipment, stands and laptop screens! Show them it IS you, and no-one will EVER come up and say you are 'cheating'. They never have to me, at least

I think a lot of the rancor comes from players that DO use a majority of machine backing, but would still LIKE to be considered 'players', at least on a forum full of arranger players that perhaps quite a LOT of them are skilled regular 'players' also. My take on this is basically just be comfortable with what you do, be honest about it's differences with traditional playing, and don't go looking for acceptance in a field that you don't actually participate in. There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with what you are doing, NOTHING wrong with the field you ARE in, it just isn't 'player'...

It's 'entertainer', or maybe they just don't have a word for it, yet, it being so new. I don't know. But trust me, for those that CAN play without machines, for those that DO play the majority of what the audience hears, for those that DON'T pantomime the Intros (or anything at all), they are VERY aware that what you are doing is NOT what we are doing, and probably dislike it being called the same thing! I personally don't have a problem with anything you DO, but don't try to persuade me that you are doing the same thing!

That's all.

All we have in common is the TOOL we use for our particular skills, not the skill itself. You can use a screwdriver as an electrician, and you can use a screwdriver as a plumber. But if you are an electrician, DON'T try to persuade a plumber that you are one too, just because you have a screwdriver as well! You pretty much KNOW what that will get you!

One last thing... Before you rush out to hit that 'Reply' button, and start to castigate me, DON'T assume that when I say 'YOU' I am addressing YOU personally. It's the correct form of address to a 'General' forum, the plural of 'YOU' (don't you LOVE English!).

But it IS a reply to those that think that there is NO distinction between ANY form of entertainment, and everyone should be labeled the same. I don't want anyone turning up at my shows, expecting to see karaoke. They might actually WANT it, and I would hate to see them disappointed! Be proud of what you do, and don't try to label it something it is NOT. Find a label that is different (because it IS different) and be proud of that. If you don't like 'karaoke', invent one for yourselves...

Then be proud of THAT, and defend it from others that call themselves it, but are something else altogether...

You know, the 'Circle of Strife'... (thank you, Elton John)
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Now, can you see your shadow...?

Some of you guys must have a whole lot of free time on your hands to come up with BS like this. Why don't you consider spending more time performing and less time bitching about the semantics of it? I think you might find that much more fulfilling.

Joe

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Songman55
Joe Ayala