With everyone( well atleast half the people) complaining about the lack of 76 key arranger versions, it got me wondering what we have seen in the past...

So what top-arrangers have we seen in the past with 76 keys

General Music SX3
General Music SK76
Yamaha PSR 9000 Pro
Roland G1000
Roland G70
Roland E60
Korg PA1X
Korg PA2x
Ketron SD1
Wersi Ikarus
Wersi abacus duo Pro
Lionstracs Mediastation (still under development)

I think i have got them all on that list? Or did i miss any?

More so Bachus...we should be wondering WHY there are hardly any 76 key arrangers available NOW or in the future? Controller KB & alternative software choices may have something to do with it also.

I think the main reason is that 50% of all keyboardplayers still doesn't realise they are so much better of with those aditional 15 keys.

Main reason is that they are used to 61 keys and the musicall instrument producers don't have the intention to change that.

I can attest to that. Although, having an organ background, I sometimes enjoy playing the piano on my G70, for the firstime, since having 76 keys. Also, in split mode, I find it a welcome addition. Having now had 76 keys, I wouldn't again trade quality and a few pounds to go back to 61.

I still find it strange to think in terms of people that DIDN'T learn to play on a piano. Definitely in my day, the overwhelming number of players at least got their start on the piano. Then, if they played professionally, a Fender Rhodes (usually 73) was their main axe for piano parts, if they didn't have a CP70 or the like.

You have to remember that, although synths often had smaller keyboards, and started the trend towards the 61, they were NOT used primarily for piano parts, but one handed soloing, or later on, polysynth chords and the like, but still not the primary piano.

But the arranger... why so resistant to the 76? I think my take on this is that the majority of arranger buyers are NOT 'taught' players. In fact, a large percentage can't play at all, and are looking for something inexpensive to learn to dabble on (the arranger's strength!) and just do simple LH chord RH solo type playing. Few that learn on an arranger ever bother with REAL piano lessons, and so end up not even realizing what you CAN do with an extended keyboard.

I am just grateful that the entire arranger industry has not abandoned those that CAN play already, and just concentrated on the beginner players that are their main market (like Yamaha have).

I personally think the smaller keyboard size comes from the home organs where you often had only 2 times 49 keys. But then you had 2 manualls to make up for the fewer keys..

The synths first where more based on the upper manuall of the old home organs then on the piano's

Korg seems to be the only company to continue to pursue the 76 note arranger market...the G70 is discontinued, and soon will be the E-60, neither of which sold very well, so maybe Roland will pass on a new TOTL 76 note arranger?

Time will tell.

Ian

I surly hope so now that T3 is a Non issue after reading about it.




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 05-31-2008).]

Donny...I meant that Roland may not make a 76 note TOTL...you know, they will "pass" on it.

They surely didn't make a whole lot of profit from the G70 or E-60, and the name of the game for every company is profit.

As I said...time will tell...maybe Korg will have the whole shebang.

Ian

Ian or maybe they'll make BOTH 61/76 & finally give the people the choice which would solve many needs.....For Me personally, I dont need to lug 76 keys on the road everyday. Studio is a different story.

The thing about Roland's is... I didn't see the 61 versions exactly creaming the 76 in sales. For whatever reason (mostly marketing and distribution, IMO), Roland arranger sales were flat across the board. If they decide to keep making arrangers at all, I see no reason why they would abandon the 76, which, in all fairness and from looking at all the Roland owner posts, is possibly the LARGER part of their sales. Most here posting as Roland owners are either G70, E60 (both 76's) and a few E80 (61).

It is hard to imagine that Roland will stop supporting us 76 users, as we are probably some of the last diehard Roland users... I can certainly say that if they go 61 only, I'm going to either be hanging on to my G70 for a LONG time, and then moving to whatever other 76 options are then available. Or just giving up on arrangers altogether, as loopstation 76's start to get a bit more arranger-like.

But I will NOT take two keyboards to a gig when one 76 does the job, and I do far too much straight ahead piano playing for a 61 to ever be an option.

My hope is that Roland abandon all the 'extras' that have jacked up the price on their TOTL arrangers that few even use (harmonizers, video output and control, mp3 players, etc.) and just come out with a basic, no frills ARRANGER with the few remaining niggles fixed from the G70, lighter weight, but same killer sound (and action!). Drop the price a grand, and you have something that real players will love (and karaoke wannabes will hate!), just like the G1000 used to be.

I don't know where Ian got his info....

But overehere in europe the E60 sold better then the E50.

And to Diki......Its the extra's that most people buy them Totl arrangers for. ... Next to that all those extra's are software based, don't cost anything as they can be copy/pasted from other moddels...

[This message has been edited by Bachus (edited 05-31-2008).]

Dealers and salespeople here in Canada, Bachus...G70, E-60, in spite of being marketed properly were not exactly a sales success...in my area there was one G70, I believe, and one or maybe two E-60...they just didn't sell.

People usually bought Yamaha DGX(YPG) instead...certainly not in the same league, but they had 88 weighted keys, and were more suited for home use...that's where the big market is...not in "pro" arrangers.

It may be different in Europe...but here in Canada, and I suppose the USA as well, there are very few pros using arrangers at all, never mind if they have 61 or 76 keys.

SZ is not representative of our arranger markets...this is a niche group to say the least.

Ian

A point that sometimes that gets lost amongst all the rhetoric!!

Dennis

Well thats the difference with europe..

I think overehere in europe we still sell more arangers (Toy stuff excluded) the pro synhts. And many of the younger people want one instrument that they can use as a piano, an arranger and even program it like a synth or sampler.

They want an arranger that lets them play midisongs or MP3 and play piano alongside it. They wanna create their own sounds. And i know many younger people that would love to see more Deejay stuff added to their favorite keyboard.

Overall they prefer light 76 key instruments (The size of the E60 fits the bill perfectly)

Overhere where i live the local Musical school advises everyone that wants to learn and play keyboards a 76 key modell.

You mean we're not the only arranger players in the world? !?!

Biggest sellers in my area are digital pianos like CP-300, and RD700...a lot of traditional stuff like Celtic and Acadian fiddle music, plenty of jazz players and classical performers means there is a big interest in piano based instruments...88 keys are, by far, the most requested.

76 note instruments, especially those with unweighted keys, aren't taken seriously.

I'm sure it's different for other cultures and countries, but that's how it is in my neck of the woods.

Ian

changed my mind.
DonM

[This message has been edited by DonM (edited 05-31-2008).]

i would love a 76 key arranger .....if it had built in speakers, sampler,fully functional sequencer, onboard sound editing and style creation facilities, could fit in the boot of my car and wont break my back.

That unfortunately limits me to ZERO choice. The best compromise i could find was a 61 key arranger.

If someone makes a 76 key arranger that meets the above spec please let me know. I will buy today.

Korg also did some extended keyboard versions of the old 61 note i3. There was a 76 note version called the i2. This was presented in a stretched version of the same casing and was otherwise identical to the i3 except for the addition of an enhanced 'piano 1' sound which employed a larger piano sample.

They also did an 88 note version called the i1. This had a full weighted 88 note keyboard. It also had on-board amps and speakers and was built into a modern centre column style cabinet, which was rather similar in appearance to the piano ranges they were making at the same time. The electronics were again essentially the same as the i2 and i3 but with expanded style memories as well as the improved 'piano 1 sound of the i2.

Having owned & gigged several 61 & 76 note arrangers over the years, my own view is that a 76 note version is mostly of benefit on instruments that allow a optional third keyboard zone ( eg, lower, upper zone 1, upper zone 2) as is the case with the Roland VA76 and G70 I used to use. This feature is excellent, allowing you to do things like play a solo line with one sound assigned to the first upper zone, then punctuate this with a riff accent using a different sound in upper zone two. Same idea would get you a 'call & answer' setup between the two zones - a bit like the first part of 'Duelling Banjos' in concept. On arrangers that do not offer this extra zone feature, I find 61 notes are enough and appreciate the better portability that this usually brings.

I would qualify the above viewpoint by saying that I am not looking for any arranger to be first & formost a piano substitute, so am not seeking an extended key range for this reason alone. Although I frequently use piano tones, I see them as having no more importance than (say) good organ, strings, brass, sax or guitar sounds within the overall scheme of things. This being so, my preference is for a good quality, not-too-heavy synth action keybed, as being a good all rounder.

Because of this preference I am probably in a minority in not being a huge fan of the Roland G-70 keybed (it also featured on the VA76). For me, I find it a little too firm for some non-piano related techniques and also find the profile and texture of the black notes are such that my fingers tend slip off the sides of them a little too readily (aided by my crap technique, no doubt!). The feel of the type of keybed that korg used on the 61 note i3, i30 and PA1X was just about perfect for my taste. However, I can appreciate that more 'piano orientated' players may well have a different view.



[This message has been edited by MikeTV (edited 06-01-2008).]