We have two demo's of Mediastation here http://createsongstyles.myownsiteonline....iewCat&catid=51
Please keep in mind that these were not produced with the new "Qranger " software.

They do sound good though.

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createsongstyles.com

[This message has been edited by rphillipchuk (edited 05-31-2008).]

Aye, they sound okay, but...

..... don't let your german demo man abuse them.... I am still wayting to hear the finall results of the Q-ranger. You'll need atleast a few hundred Q-ranger styles (that outshine everything else on the market)and the abbility to import EMC converted styles to make the Mediastation an option for most arranger musicians.

I hope you'l get Q-ranger to work flawless, (which would a miracle for a piece of software that is still in its alpha stage) with smooth chord changes. Because when i have a look at the specs of the Q-ranger its way beyound everything else available on todays market.

The demos are nice. I have a lot of respect for Mr Shiflet. He has stuck with the mediastation and has produced some very decent demos. The giga piano on the second demo is nice . The other accompaniment sounds are still pretty GMish particularly the drums but that doesnt take away from the overall cumulative sound.

Well done richard.

Hi Spalding
How do you come to the conclusion that GM sounds have to be worse then standard sounds (Quote “Sounds very GMish”), when a good GM soundest can blow most Arrangers normal sounds out of the water, I ask this because the Colossus VST http://www.eastwestsamples.com/details.php?cd_index=961 is essentially a GM instrument, and it makes most conventional arranger sounds (Standard voices not GM) sound pretty lack lustre.
Curious

Bill

Most GM sounds do sound lack lustre. Point to any arranger that uses just GM sounds as its sound base and you will find in most cases an inferior sounding keyboard on every front whether we are looking at acoustic or electronic /synth sounds. I know you are not trying to tell me that most arranger instruments can/do use sound sources such as the 'Colossus'link you just posted. You and i both know thats simply not true. The link bares no relevance to the GM sounds found on most arranger keyboards to which my comment about sounding 'GMish' relates.

I'm sorry, but neither of those demos impressed me. As OOTB, well, let's just say a ton of work awaits anyone who gets one of these...

That's not to say that's not a good thing, just something the majority of 'I've never even cracked the manual, it's supposed to sound PERFECT OOTB' players here probably should be aware of

I'm STILL waiting to hear the ultimate killer demo this 'open' system continually touts it is capable of... Haven't heard it yet. Sorry, folks, but a appallingly rushed piano solo on top of a marginally useful style doesn't cut it in my book. There are FAR more impressive demos posted for ALL of our horribly crippled 'closed' arrangers. Makes you wonder why we can't get something at least as good out of something so continually flaunted as 'superior'.

Superior is as superior does, in my book... Where is the 'proof' in this pudding??

Hi Spalding
I thought you were probably speaking in that vain, and I quite agree.
However the main point is that the Mediastation could use Colossus as base GM sounds if the owner wanted to, and so it would become a totally different animal.
BTW did you ever find a suitable Akai Piano sample for your Korg, or did you take some other route, as the thread relating to it went pretty much dead.
Regards

Bill

This two demos I don't like too..
Anyway..qranger now is ready from some days, BUT how you sure saw, my web server is down.
Seem that the electric room supply ( EV1 server from Texas9 totally fired and 9000 server are totally down.
Not sure also IF my web server is fired too!

well, untill all is again Up, we are not able to uploading the new OS 2.5 with qranger and upload aslo some new video demos.

I try to make one new Qranger video demo by direct recording on Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=63S5PCbR8ro
Video recording is really bad and also is not possible setting the line IN level.Sound a little satured, but you get the idea how the Qranger is working.
Note that are only simples audio styles demo, I just simple editing on the qranger SEQ, but under the timeline session is possible load any type of audio and midi tracks and configure EACH chords with the midi and audio loops that you like.
Finally the Qranger can give you the totally open way to compose your styles and create audio styles that no another system can reproduce.
( here is all HD streaming system in realtime and NOT loops ROM based...understand what I mean..)
cheers

This didn't impress me at all, This can be a personal taste since I hate DJ-like stuff, but everyone can hear how the sounds become unnatural when you move too far away from the original loop tuning.

the original posting was a demo from a fello enthusiast like most of us here and not an official demo from Mediastation. Its just a guy sharing his music with other enthusiasts. He didnt post the demo here (and i suspect that was a deliberate decision). Perhaps when we post up other peoples music we ought to make it clear whether they are demo's of the manufacturer or just recordings that they have chosen to share. This demo is every bit as good as most of the demo's posted here by similar hobbyists/enthusiasts.

The mediastation has not fullfilled its potential yet, that much i completely agree with, but similarly most of the arrangers that we play now are never used to anywhere near their potential sonic capabilities either .

Of course with only one WAV song loop, the Elastique can not make the miracle!
If for each chord pattern we can drag multipe different instruments loops and for each you setup the Root pitch shift, this will automatically resolved.

If you hate DJ stuff, is another story.
In the qranger editor allow to record any type of styles, Audio-midi in sync.
when my webserver come up again, I will shown you hot to make one Jazz swing midistyle:
import one EMC midistyle, deleting the shitty midi Drums tracks and add the Real Audio drums brush or the all midi tracks that you hate.
maybe you never saw how to editing with the qranger: http://youtube.com/watch?v=yYM5IdJvJW4
What you record there; the Mediastation arranger will Play, no more...all depend on your composing fantasy and under qranger is really all easy to do.
If then you still like the only standard midi styles system and add in your system one standard PC paltop for play Mp3, this is another story.
Enjoy what you play..

LIONSTRACS,
Thanks for the update.

It's nice to see there will be good creation of your own styles (third party too)....
BUT, For me to even consider it, I would want at least 200-300 styles of the Yamaha, Korg, Roland, Ketron quality (musically too).

So, is that in the plan?
How in the world do you get that done?
Thanks,
Lee

I have already exported the session from about 200 G-70 roland styles.
By default I like to use the G-70 format because is more GM/GS compatible format and have the 18 patterns available (Qranger now can handle up to 32 patterns)
In other EMC format brand, the pattern are more less and also EMC can not match the right program change for the G-70 format.

A lot of styles are 1-1 compatible with the Sampler soundbank: import style, play style for test and export the session, need about 20 second of work.
In a lot of G-70 styles I get a Bass track problem: G-70 use the program change 120..?? and the midi track is also full of strange more notes.
i think this G-70sounds is a special version, with more layer and for this I can not configure on the sequencer ( the best way I think is to clone this sounds too under GIG format OR asking a new more compatible EMC convesrion map)

Anyway, do don't think to use the EMC style converter for the all brands styles, I found there a lot of bugs too.
When one style exported to SEQ format is not working, I have to quit the application, run again and try to export the same style, untill is working ( normally after 6-8 times the EMC will export correct)

Ditto.

The best hope for the mediastation is to get addopted by a few willing musicians that are willing to share the styles they created on the mediastation...

Next to that, the people at mediastation could solve the G70 bassloop problem by making a SAMPLE cd with samples that mimmick the Roland samples (They allreayd have done so for the T2)

Next to that i am still convinced that Mediastation and lionstracs are slwoly moving there where me and some others are hoping they would go.... its taking their time, but that was expected with such a small company...


I hope the next version of Q-ranger will even incorporate more features of Ableton live..... And then somehow they need to attach knobs to the thing, to really ,make it the ultimate Deejay performar instrument.


I'd also advise them to hire a part-time PR manager that speaks fluently English and German.

If you use Roland styles without permission, you will be pursued by Roland lawyers for copyright infringment... and I don't know if roland will license their styles to be used on competitors' keyboards.

Anyway, Wersi OAS can use Yamaha styles and never heard of Yamaha threatening Wersi...



[This message has been edited by mrdave (edited 06-02-2008).]

Hello...what we have now to restart again with the copyright argument?
Is already cloned the whole Yamaha Tyros, some Korg, Roland Fanthom and so on.. and?
read here: http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=25832
I still waiting...
About the styles:
In the net are awailable TON of styles, you can aslo get a 16.000 Roland styles package.
do you mean that Roland have compose 16.000 styles?
After we editing all again the styles ( because we need a midifile format) nobody can do nothing.
I believe this time finally this argument is closed.
enjoy what you play

LIONTRACS,
I don'gt think I understand your answer.

Are you saying if I buy the next Midiastation I will get 200-300 great, FINISHED working styles on-board? That represent a vast genre of music?
Similar to any/all of the other arranger manufactureres?

I don't want to have to write/edit/tweek any styles to use the board. AND I want intros, variations, fills, breaks, endings to work correctly, musically all the time.

Thanks,
Lee

Lee
i'm honest...
Right in this moment I have READY to play on mediastation 194 Midi styles.
Just to press the Patch and play.
From tomorrow I start to make another 40-60 midi styles and then a little pause..
Note:
All this midistyles are exported session, it mean that is not possible SAVE again over it. ( are like protected)
with the Qranger editor you can open it, edit again the all sounds, tracks, add audio loops and so on and SAVE AS ( or export again the session) for a new styles preset.
The Mediastation Style, is based on one Folder name.
Inside the Folder name style, you can Save unlimited variation/setup/version of this styles and then recall the desidered preset style ( session) by default Style Patch.
In the private mediastation FTP account are ready to download about 3 Gb of audio Loops library, just to hear the data and Drag&Drop in this available midi styles.
More easy like that.....

Another news...soon you wil see open a new web page for share online the all mediastation Qranger styles, midifiles and audio songs.
Anyone also can be register and resell for some dollars ( OR Free of course) the own new qstyles/songs/midifile+voice tracks too.
Enjoy what you play.

Well, I'm certainly enjoying what I'm playing...

But I sure don't hear much about other MS users enjoying what they are playing Most that post admit that the MS is a secondary keyboard, NOT their primary arranger. And NONE of them have posted even a passable user demo, compared to T2 user demos or Roland and Korg ones, which many have sounded very professional.

Now does this mean that none of these MS's are in the hands of great players, or that none of the great players that own them can get a good sound out of them? It must be one of the two

OTOH, I'm sorry, but I can't even find one GREAT demo on the Lionstracs site. Certainly nothing that compares to factory demos from Y, K & R on their websites. All right, I'll go along with the fact that MAYBE not one single MS ever got sold to someone capable of a decent demo (unlikely, but OK, I'll run with it), but the factory themselves?

Let's face it, Dom... You come here and talk to us, you are primarily addressing a western membership, who overwhelmingly use arrangers by the top three or four. If you want to sell arrangers to us, you need to show us that the MS is capable of being BETTER that what we already have.. NOT just tell us. SHOW us. It's what the big three do, they KNOW we need to hear them at their best, to give us an idea of what it is capable of, that we are not willing to just take their word.

Now, I'm sorry, but perhaps you don't think YOUR arranger needs this. After all, here you are TELLING us just how good it is, about how all our current favorites are useless in comparison, poor crippled 'closed' arrangers. OTOH, here is Y K & R, SHOWING us how good their 'closed' arrangers are.

Where are the demos of all these styles from Roland and Yamaha, so we can compare them to what we already have? You would think, if they are that much better, you would have them up at the site (or does THAT constitute copyright infringement, whereas just ripping them off not? )...

For what? Over three years now, this product's viability has been 'just around the corner'. I'm looking back, and I don't see any corner turned, just continual promises that nirvana is close by. Unfulfilled promises.

So.... if you want to sell arrangers to us (you post here, so I guess you must) you have to play the same game our current arranger makers do. SHOW us this superiority. STOP talking about it... Put up dozens of style demos that are better than T2, G70, PA2X Pro. The world will beat a path to your door (including me!) when you do, and they won't if you don't.

If you can...

Unfortunally for you, what I MUST is to produce asap another 100 MS Expanded, for the oriental area, Slovenia and Croazia: http://www.lionstracs.com/store/images/production/100grooex7.JPG

All the styles that i already made, 90% will be NOT used there, because they have a totally different music styles.
Oriental people need for the 80% only Oriental sounds, where with the other keyboard the Sampler is only a toys, RAM limited and SLOW to preload the sampler...
They gave me 2800 GIGA oriental sounds ( about 14Gb of data) that only the mediastation can load.
Finally they can also use my new Qranger system for make a totally new generation of oriental styles, ALL the other keyboard never can loading this all sounds in realtime.
( yes, T2 can load 1Gb...but after 50 minute you can start to press the first key...)

then, at the end, the mediastation Expanded cost officially only 3200 euro, MUCH less that other professional keyboard OR the last one ( xxx) with the new 9 sounds...or the new annunced for october XXXYX...

Still the MS will remain unique under this PC system and still after more 4 years, no one was able to copy nothing and IF they can copy my system, it mean that you have to waiting another 5-10 years..

This is waht I MUST, make happy people that had placed a secure orders for big quantity of MS and then of course, to try to make someone there happy too.

Diki... I still not understand you at all..
You are the last one that continue to play with the G-70, ONLY midi based system and you continue stressing the all others..
IF you don't like the MS, PAX, T2..leave the all other to play and enjoy what they like.
If you are not happy with your G-70, just buy one 300 dollars PC windows laptop, insall the all VST that you like and put it over you G-70.
Where is the problem??

Dominic.......I enjoyed playing the MS Fran has in his studio.....built super tough, great keyfeel, buttons, display nice & large, very decent sounds & styles & this was last year & very navagationaly adequate for live performance. The only thing that I would need is a much lighter unit if I would ever even consider a MS...why does it have to be so heavy?

because the MS is not made in plastic and in China.
If Fran is able to upgrade this old MS with a new mainbord 64bit, 2Gb RAM and SATA HD, will then able to enjoy the all new Qranger features on OS 2.5.
Is only a small hardware investment of about 150 US dollars ( MUCH less than upgade one keyboard)

Maybe for you, wait on beginn september the new MS 61 keys, economic version and not so havy like the 76 version.
cheers

Diki,

The Mediastation is far more advanced and much better sounding than you are portraying it to be. You are basing its sound quality on MP3 demos that don't even show off its true capabilities. Contrary to what many others write the Mediastation isn't some BETA version instrument, it works and sounds great. Sound quality is true 24 bit with amazing dynamic range, much more than anything the big three has to offer. Just because the MP3's demo's suck doesn't mean that the instrument does. You can bash the Mediastation all that you want but why not wait until you actually play the instrument in person before you do.

Wersi also gets its share of bashing and those that do bash Wersi haven't heard one first hand. Had I listened to other peoples opinions who never even touched these instruments I'd never have got a Mediastation or a Wersi. Thankfully I base my instrument decisions on first hand use, not conjecture.

Lionstracs customer support is top notch and Domenic is always available to answer questions. When I had Yamaha's top of the line arranger all I got was the runaround from Yamaha when I had issues. The same thing happened to me with Korg when I had problems with my Oasys. If all manufacturers were available to their customers and listened like Domenic does, you'd find the features you want implemented not just some rehashed instrument like the Tyros, Tyros II, and upcoming Tyros 3. What other company listens to its customers like that? Certainly not Yamaha.

Domenic please keep me informed on the new 61 version....thats great news...Thank you

Me, I don't care one jot if an arranger is open closed, slightly ajar, or locked in a coffin. I've got one criterion for whether an arranger works for me or not. How does it sound? Is the voice choice balanced, do the styles work for most western music (just how big is the Slovenian market, Dom? You REALLY want to put all your eggs in that basket?), does it work smoothly without having to completely re-do everything you have?

So far, not one demo (that I've heard) can stand up to the best of Yamaha and Roland, Korg or Ketron. NOT ONE... Unbalanced styles, too much reverb on some things, not enough on others, out of tune parts, unbalanced drum kits, you name it. Go to the Tyros2 demo page, or the PA2X Pro page (or the Roland's, whatever).... You won't find ANY of this. Why is this?

And PLEASE, stop giving me the guff about 'these are only poor MP3 demos that don't reflect the sound of the MS', Ensnare. Those are only poor MP3 demos on the T2 site (and all the others), too, magically, it doesn't stop them from sounding amazing... Simple question, Dom. If they can do it, why not you?

Lastly, if you think that it's more important to bash out at least a hundred styles for the Slovenian market, rather than a hundred GOOD styles (or two or three hundred!) for the rest of the world, you are painting yourself into a corner. Put the majority of your sound and style development into styles that only a tiny fraction of the world plays, you are restricting your mass appeal, and actually alienating potential customers. Knowing your current focus, it is hard for a western arranger user to think that he is likely to see much style development when you put so much effort into your own area's tiny user base, and so little into the rest.

I have never written off your keyboard, Dom. If it actually delivered on your promise (for more than the Adriatic part of the world), I would have got one ages ago. All I need is something that STARTS out sounding and working better than my G70. THEN, to have the potential for me to make it even better. not starting out way WORSE than my G70, and MAYBE I can get it (with unceasing work) to sound as good or better...

After all, I am just some simple beach musician If YOU can't get it to sound better than my G70 (or a T2 or PA2X Pro) across the board, what hope do I have?

I don't agree with your bashing of the media station... it really has some great sounds in there...

I agree with you that they need to concentrate on the style section, i did not even hear one really good style comming from it...


They prolly could use some vollunteer "Musicians" that create styles. because i still feel Mediastation is more of a technicall and programming project then about a musicall instrument. For me a musicall instrument needs a soul, and the soul of an arranger keyboard are its styles and controllers.


Its good to hear you'll be also making a 61 key version... Thats atleast an advantage of the MS, its all hand build and they don't need to set up an extra production line for a different version..... Keep it that way hand build and custom made...


So any western musicians picking up the glove to create some great allround styles for the MS?

And that is NOT 'bashing it'?

Here's the problem. I tell it the way I see it, and it's 'bashing'. You agree with me on some points, and it's NOT...

What's the point of an arranger without ONE good style (IYO )? Just because there are 'some' good sounds in it? At that price, me, I'd want them ALL to be good, not good after I have spent another thousand dollars or more on high quality VSTi's...

As I keep saying - when the promise of this is fulfilled, I will be first on my block to buy one. Until then, I'm just here to keep saying 'the Emperor has no clothes' until he GETS some. He can keep telling you over and over about how magnificent his costume is (and how awful ours are, too!), but if you keep looking hard, you'll see that it's still bare flesh...

Now, if you can grow cotton, and weave your own yarn, make cloth, cut it and make a suit from scratch, this may be the thing for you. Me, I kind of expect a bit more 'off the shelf', 'ready to wear' than this... It's not that I don't mind a BIT of work to get things personalized, but having to start from scratch, or do major surgery to convert non-native styles to the MS strikes me as a bit much, especially at that price.

So, as I say, I don't consider it 'bashing'... just a reality check, past the hype and on to the facts. At least to my ears (and apparently yours too), this one ain't ready for the big leagues unless you ARE capable of making your own style library for it. I've heard hundreds of 'conversion' styles, on all kinds of arrangers. NOT ONE of them ever sounded better on the new arranger than the original. There's something about the sound and the playing being as one, that playing a part on a different sound always sounds inferior to it on the original. If the playing is any good, anyway...

Dom needs to bite the bullet, and bundle the MS with a REALLY good VSTi already loaded. Colossus, something like that. THEN develop ALL the styles for a sound set that is ALREADY far superior to a T2 or the like, not develop them for the semi-good set that exists, then expect the user to chose a whole bunch of different VSTi's, and then try to convert these styles for it himself. Styles always sound best on the sound they were created with (and great sounds would inspire his style creators, too).

Yes, it would jack up the price of the MS, but let's face it, nobody in their right minds is going to get this, and then NOT spend a large chunk on VSTi's. Might as well pay upfront, and at least have styles developed specifically for it...

But what do I know...? I'm just a 'basher', apparently

There are allready some very good inhouse sounds.. (As you mentioned)


I tested the Linux sampler under Linux, and it sounds just as good as any of the other top vst sample players like kontakt or halion. This giga sampler (thats a free download under Linux) was developed espescially for the mediastation and is the base of the mediastation sound.

There are allready some free vst's bubdled with mediastation.


I'd hate it if they would "Force " people to buy one very expensive vst with the mediastation, as that takes away from the people's freedom of choice. People are free of will nad can decide for themselves what they want.

Next to that the VSt will not be used as the base of the sound, but as added solo sounds.

Somehow people seem to forget what Linux is/was all about ... You buy a piece of hardware and the software comes with it for "Free" so adding payd expensive vst's would not support that.

Dom still has got a lot of credit with me, i am in the software development buiseness myself and i know how much effort it takes, not to create things... but to get them working flawlessly.

But i would not advise anyone to buy the Mediastation right now, as we haven't heard it live yet and because the style section is still performing under par untill they have a few hundred top-styles for the new Q-ranger. Sadly Dom and Lionstracs need the money from their sale to pay for the further develoment and their own livings.

Dom would best concentrate on the musicall part of the instrument and find some really great musicians that can create some really great styles... Somehow i think Dom himself is more of a wizzkid technician then a musician. And a wise man knows what he can do himself and what others can do much better.

Dom is doing the right thing by focusing his attentions on the market that actually buys his product. There is no point in becomeing another 'me too ' arranger provider. It would appear that the oriental, croation and slovenian market is expanding and customersw are buying the MS but my guess is not for its arranger capabilities.Anyway it is much wiser to develope those markets and use the profit from that to develope the product rather than continuously trying to break the western market where our requirements are much more diverse.

'Some' good sounds (even a majority) do NOT make a 'sound-set'...

That is the whole point of an arranger, in fact, the whole point of sound modules since the Sound Canvas came out. Every sound needs to work well with every other sound. Every drum kit needs to be balanced exactly the same as every other drum kit.

You will want to change drum kits for personal taste. You might want a tighter kit, you might want brushes, you might want an ambient, 'rock' kit. The whole point of a 'sound set' rather than a collection of disparate drum kits from different places is that, if the sound set is balanced, all you have to do is change the PC#, and it still sounds great! NOT that the hi-hats are louder in one kit, or the crashes too quiet, the snare drum's frequencies interfere with the toms. etc., etc.. Which is what you find, swapping between different VSTi's. They are NOT balanced against each other. Change kits, and you have a boatload of extra work to do before it sounds decent... hence you will be less inclined to do it.

Same for basses, guitars, horns, just about every sound there is. Unless a sound set is designed and built from the ground up to be consistent, kiss goodbye to easy tweaking of your styles. Although the Sound Canvas sounds were quite poor in comparison to modern GIGA sounds, what it had going for it, and what made it the de facto standard for well over a decade, was that every sound worked with every other sound. Out of the box. Change sax sounds, and you didn't have to tweak velocities, or volumes. Change one kit for another, and you didn't have to rework your sequence.

For an arranger, this is of PRIMARY importance. If you change a sax sound in the middle of a piece, you don't want to HAVE to immediately rush to the volume slider to turn it up or down. You don't want to have to change the EQ on a pick bass because you changed from an upright. Everything works together. This is what makes using disparate VSTi's, that are ALL completely different in EQ, velocity response, sonic 'weight' and panorama, SO difficult compared to one unified sound-set.

SURE... the results, AFTER you have spent months tweaking and refining, MIGHT possibly work together as well as a cheap Sound Canvas did OOTB, and sound great. But forget about near instant karma. It took Roland years to put together something as well balanced as the Sound Canvas, especially later models like the great SC880Pro (the MT-32 was nowhere NEAR as well balanced, but it was a start). Do you think you are going to be able to cobble something as interchangeable in a few weeks?

This is why I feel that a GREAT, unified, well balanced VSTi as the basis for ALL the styles is what the MS needs as a BASIC sound set. Add all you want, later, but don't be surprised at the amount of work you are going to have to do to make it blend in with all the other sounds...

Spontaneity is the watchword for arrangers. Far more than workstations, IMO. If I am in the middle of a piece, and suddenly decide 'I would like to play this on muted trumpet instead of harpsichord' (or whatever ) all I want to do is call the harpsichord up. And play. Not futz with volume and EQ before it can fit perfectly. Same with sounds INSIDE the style parts.

And that, my friends, is a LOT of work to prepare if you 'mix and match' your own VSTi's.

Food for thought...

Diki,
Very well said.
That's most of the reason I got out of the software arranger and am back at the hardware arrangers!

The software arrangers have some nice fetures and they do work, but the built in BALANCED content is missing. I got all the MIDI controls to work fine with upper, lower and pedals, but the musical content is missing. If your willing and have the talent to put all that together and get it balanced... great. I would rather play.

Lee

There is something so pure and so satisfying to just sit down, select a style and a favorite sound and just play...nothing to stop the flow of creativity, nothing to get in the way of the joy of playing.

Ian