chas ... I'm with you on the split definition of 'standards' vs 'jazz standards', with the latter being tunes written BY jazz writers and/or performers for jazz players (primarily at least) ...
It is interesting how some of the standards from the "Great American Song Book" have become standards for jazz players ... If you go to hear a 'jazz group', you can pretty much count on hearing songs such as "All The Things You Are", "Teach Me Tonight", "I'll Remember April", "Summertime" etc. ...
I really enjoy hearing songs with 'simple' chord structures, such as "Sunny" played by jazz players who add the more complex chords ...

I think it's a shame that "Feelings" got the bad rap it did ... The chord structure was similar to other songs such as "A Taste of Honey", that have enjoyed popularity and been played be a wide range of players ... I think it was more the fact that it was sung by just about EVERY major pop artist at the time ...
Besides, I used to do a pretty good job on it myself !!! ...

t.

PS ... anyone else want to join in the discussion?

I think 'Feelings' eventually broke up the Fabulous Baker Brothers Ahhh...Michelle....

Tony, I think I disagree.

I think Jazz is how musicians freely interpret a composition, not how its written, ergo you could take any song, Feelings for example, throw in some interpretation and over time and refinement it could become a staple in the reps of players.

As you guys would know a LOT of the tunes in any of the Real Books, came about becausee guys were blowing over a set of chords, and someone came up with a really good melody and thought "hey, thats a good tune" and it then sort of hung around in the reps and others heard them and gradually adopted them as well.. It wasn't written specifically as a jazz song, it just evolved that way.

As is the case with many of the jazz tunes we hear and use today, they just eveolved from songs composed for other purposes.

Just my 2 cents.
Dennis

[This message has been edited by miden (edited 07-22-2008).]

No offense, but any head written over the "Feelings' changes, IF UNALTERED, is going to get gonged before the second verse!

And, if you alter the changes, it isn't 'Feelings' any more...

I guess what we have to take account of is that 'popular' music, as opposed to straight ahead jazz tunes, USED to incorporate changes that didn't have to be altered much, if at all, to provide a challenge and and interesting blow... But for quite a while now, 'popular' music has devolved to the point of utter stagnation in the chordal area.

Some of it comes from the generation of 'loop' users... Obviously, the changes are going to be as short as the loop... Most great jazz tunes, show tunes, and music from the pre-eighties had a chord structure the length of the entire verse. 32 bar loops are NOT what the kids are using (even the jazz kids!), so the whole idea of a long form solo have disappeared.

Then there was the move in jazz towards modal soloing, and modal pieces, rather than using song changes, and the combination of these two things has, I think, led to the current state we are in...

I graduated from and still live near one of the top rated jazz programs in the country and often visit with some of my friends who are now on the faculty. Most of them say the kids entering as freshman have great chops - better than in years past - but have no concept of the jazz idium. Most of these faculty frienes played with people like Stan Kenton, Woody Herman, etc during their college days. Who are the kids going to play with today? For that matter - who are they going to listen to so they can learn?

Hammer

I dunno about that one...

In all fairness, between Youtube, Sirius, all the download services, kids today have a FAR larger range of music they could easily listen to. Sure, going out and catching some of the legends live is getting harder and harder to do, but not one of them can complain that they have nothing to listen to!

If they aren't listening to the greats, it's because they are not trying to... it's easier than ever before to do it if you want to!

I love this version of "Yesterday", by Oscar Peterson.

Terrific strings arrangement.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeSpLJOxasQ

Ian

Ian, I would literally sell my soul to the devil (if he'd have it) to have his chops. Not bad, for a Canadian .

Once again, seizing upon an opportunity for another 'HiJack' (of this original HiJack), I pose this question:

What song or songs (most people have several) do you get the most sensual (ie. touches your soul) pleasure from PLAYING (regardless of what you're playing it on - piano, guitar, organ, juice harp, or kazoo). For me (today, anyway)

Feelin' good - Anthony Newly
Funny Valentine
How deep is the Ocean
'Round midnight - Monk
Any "blues in F", the 'head' doesn't matter

Note: Doesn't have to be your favorite song(s), just the one that gives you the most pleasure PLAYING.

chas

I guess the most "feeling" songs I play are some of the old standards.

"Someone to Watch Over Me" is one, as is "Smoke Gets In Your Eyes" and a jazz ballad arrangement of "Don't It Make My Brown Eyes Blue"...

Several others would be...

"As Time Goes By"

"Here There, and Everywhere" (Beatles)

"Yesterday" (Beatles again)

"Comme Au Premier Jour" by Andre Gagnon...another Canadian...fantastic composer and pianist....more in the classical vein....e-mail me and I'll send you my MP3 recording of it.(done on S900 with a style I assembled)

"All the Things you Are"

"The Nearness of You"

Just too many to mention...playing these tunes can sometimes bring a tear to my eye and they really give me a sense of warmth and elation.

See...I have feelings too.

Ian

Love the David Benoit version of "Here, There and Everywhere". Tunes listed by Chas and Ian show that, in large part, any worthwhile tune is what you, the player makes of it. Think of "Masquerade"; written by Leon Russell (possibly my favorite pop writer) and first charted by Leon and by the Carpenters in the early 70's.

Then, Benson interpreted it and the rest is history. He had lost his recording contract and was going to dig foundations in Hawaii. He took a lot of flack for "selling out", but said in an interview, with 8 million copies of the "Breezin" album sold, he was too rich to really give a damn.

The secret, I think, is to play what fulfills you, interpret fundamentally good tunes, giving them your personal imprint, and figure out how to be satisfied with the results (read that money, recognition, personal satisfaction, sense of progress/accomplishment....whatever).

What a complex/satisfying/frustrating field we work in!


Wouldn't have it any other way.

Russ

Russ, you're always stiring up good memories for me. I met David Benoit at one of the annual jazz festivals at Honokaa, Big Island, Hi. James Moody (at about age 80, was also on the bill). Fantastic concert with the crowd pleaser being Moody doing the very funny Eddie Jefferson parody of Pennies from Heaven (Bennie's from Heaven). Some may not consider David a hard core jazz player but it sure as hell isn't because he can't; the guy has monster chops. I think his wife is Hawaiian. We were living about 15 minutes down the road at the time (Papaikou). Very good memories.


chas

+1 to this, and extra to the Leon Russell comment. great songwriter.

Chas, about 5 years ago, the local Jazz Arts Foundation sponsored a series of workshops and performances by Richard Davis; as you probably know, a performer and Jazz Educator in the Ray Brown Class. We were talking about Moody, and when I asked Davis about a particular recording, he suggested that I call him! Moody listed his home phone number on his website, and answered his own phone when I called!

I had last seen him at a mid-80's WNOP Jazz Festival (outside of Cincinnati-sponsored by a small but mighty jazz station), playing with Jimmy Smith. I was playing with Cal Collins, a great guitar player, who passed away a few years ago.

I think James Moody is a national treasure.
He's funny, a great singer, in addition to being the killer horn player he's considered, and has a list of lifetime accomplishments in education listed on his site.

The 20 minute conversation I had with him is one of my fondest music related memories.


Russ

Dennis, in looking at your recent posts, I suspect that we agree on more issues than we disagree on, and I regret any past misunderstandings.

Be well,


Russ

Russ,
I think so too!

And sincerely, my apologies for things said in haste and anger.. not truly meant.

Thanks

Dennis

GROUP HUG...GROUP HUG!

Dennis, there is something to be admired about articulating your opinion. You obviously think through the issues and are firm in your beliefs.

And, it never hurts we're on the same page on many issues.

I'll always enjoy the similar opinions and respect your right to have different ones.

Thanks,

Russ

(PS. Leon's a KILLER! Saw him live about 5 years ago here in Lexington. Wasn't moving too fast, but played and sang his ass off!).

[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 07-24-2008).]

Wow, there are lot's of hot young Jazz artists today the kids can learn from, not to mention the old Jazz masters such as Pat Metheny, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Bob James, etc. How about Keiko Matsui, Joyce Cooling, Richard Elliot, Lyle Mayes, George Duke, Grover Washington, and on, and on......


------------------
Al Giordano
Visit us at ARRANGER WORLD! http://www.arrangerworld.com

Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland TD-12 Vdrums, Roland SPD-S.

Good call on all the players you mentioned, Al. George isn't in the same age group as most of them...I think he's about Herbie's age, but what a great player! Got a George Duke CD in my car right now!


Russ

Thanks for the kind words Russ, and I am envious as I would give anything to see Leon Russell live.

It's a shame his recent trip to Japan could not have included a diversion a bit further south!!

I reckon shows would be a sellout here...

Cheers
Dennis

Al ... good players, yes ... BUT ... I guess because of my age (67) I just don't put guys like Richard Elliott and the rest, even Grover, as much as I really liked his playing, in the same category as Miles, Getz, Brubeck, Desmond, Mulligan, Oscar, Jimmy Smith, etc ....

t.

I agree completely, Tony. Although great players, I don't think that even THEY would put themselves in the same class with these legends. I had the pleasure of playing a few gigs with Grover in Atlantic City very early in his career and even then he was a great, great player. A shame for someone so talented to die so young.

chas

Chas..was it early 70's....outside Atlantic City..an after hours club...?

I also remember sitting in (on accordion)..Washington was the same age as I..Drums , bass , sax and...accordion.

If I can recall the tunes were Just Friends, Bernie's Tune and Robin's Nest..

Do you guys remember those...

Washington actually sat in with the HiFiv (our group} it was late 60's
Bob Gough on upright bass, Walt Russel on drums, Walt Sedden on guitar(the best I ever seen or heard}..Our Sax player was Rob Filer...and me on accordion..
Rob and I were 30 years younger than Walt, Walt and Bob

Fran, it was probably a couple of years earlier. Grover was quite young (as were we all). I can't think of the name of the club we played in but it was definitely not an 'after-hours' joint. There were about six main clubs in the Black area of the then well-segregated AC. Grace's Little Belmont (Bill Doggett 'owned' that one during the summer, the only season I worked as I was either teaching or had started grad school at U. of P.), Club Harlem across the street and hosting the better known acts (Nipsey Russell was the MC there), the Old Cotton Club, and the two whose names escape me at the moment (old age). If we were fairly well known, we were allowed to sneak through the back door and catch (from the kitchen area) Sinatra or whatever big name was playing the 500 club. May be uncomfortable to hear now, but that was MY memory of the 'fabulous 60's'.

I played there for (AC) 4-5 summers and with the exception of Pat Martino and one or two other jazz players, I honestly don't remember any White players sitting in at any of those clubs (especially on accordion). I'm not saying I don't believe you (in fact I do), but it must have been after my time there. The reigning guys on 'our side of the track' (I've even forgotten the name of the street (Pacific Ave.?) that divided the 'two America's) were Don Paterson, Johnny 'Hammond' Smith, Qui Qui (pronounced kiki) somebody-or-other, Wild Bill Davis, Jimmy McGriff, 'Chops' Turner, and a host of other great but anonymous organ players (EVERY group then was an organ-based group). Jimmy Smith always came through once during the course of the summer (to us he was GOD). It was a great time, musically; socially, not so much. I feel very fortunate to have been able to meet and, in some cases, play with, some of the great musicians from that era. I'm sure you feel the same.

chas

Chas I made the correction..Grover was the one sitting in...and yes I remember different "sides of the track"....Besides I was Italian ..not "white"..

If we're still talking about Standards/Songs that stand the test of time, I think - "I'll be Seeing you" (music/Sammy Fain,lyrics/Irving Kahal) is one of the most moving, beautiful songs I know.

I don't know of it's "overall popularity" compared with songs like Summertime, All the Things You Are, Teach me Tonight etc etc, but I sincerely believe it deserves to be right up there....(2 cents)