For those lucky enough to devote full time to their instrument, practice is the best way to go.
However arrangers are designed for home players who most likely have a day job and many other commitments, and so coming home after a hard day at work and just pressing a few buttons to sound like a symphony orchestra, is the best relaxation there is. (I wish I had a fraction of the time pros have to develop their skills)

Bill

Pros became pros because they MADE time to practice. They started out with exactly the same time everybody else has. No-one ever gave me a 25 hour day or an eight day week

Instead of mindlessly 'relaxing' with an auto-orchestra, that exact same time, used well, means that the NEXT time you 'relax' with your arranger, you might play better than last time, rather than spending countless thousands on new gear, so IT plays better next time while you still play the same old licks.

You don't become a pro until AFTER you do the work. No-one comes up to you and says 'OK, you're a pro. Now take the day off to practice so you can be good enough to be one!'

I sincerely believe the T3 will be an incredible keyboard, one that will likely show significant improvements and advancements in several areas.

I also agree with Diki when he stated "we have done more than scratched the surface of such a complex keyboard in just two years? How many of us have exhausted the possibilities of patch, style and registration creation in just two years? How many of us have even read the manual from cover to cover in two years?"

The vast majority of the world's keyboard owners have never read the owners manual--no doubt about it. That's mainly because they are the poorest written documents I've come across in my lifetime. The owner's manuals are the prime reason that a host of keyboard user forums are alive and extremely active. On most of the forums, there are thousands of technical questions posted each month, nearly all of which are answered by a handful of individuals that HAVE taken on the challenge of deciphering the manuals and putting the information into an easy to understand format.

As for Bill's statement "...arrangers are designed for home players ..." you should probably take an in-depth look at today's arranger keyboards. Sure, you can press a a few buttons and get some decent results, but as Diki said most folks have not scratched the surface. I can assure you that the vast majority of today's high-end keyboards can do more than anyone could imagine. The list of features is nearly endless, the sound quality is superb, and there are lots of of who are out there making a decent living playing arranger keyboards--THIS IS OUR DAY JOB! (It's also our nighttime job.)

For me, the PSR-3000 continues to fill the bill and keeps the paychecks coming in every day. I never get bored with my current keyboard, but that's probably because I'm constantly downloading new styles, applying finishing touches by changing voices, modifying OTS settings, tweaking EQs, changing the style characteristics, then putting them to work while performing new songs. All of this requires exploring the depths of the keyboard's features and operating system, which obviously takes a bit of time. However, the results are well worth the effort.

Diki and Chico hit the nail on the head when the both said "Far better to play well on an obsolete arranger, than to play the same obsolete stuff on a brand new one, IMO..."

Cheers,

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

[This message has been edited by travlin'easy (edited 07-30-2008).]

Gary


Last Saturday I loaned my S900 to my son Daniel and made a five hours gig with my old Psr550.
Few styles loaded in a fd and all OK.
The audience liked very much my job with my small companion and I didn't miss the 900.
By the way, my fingers was the same.
I must agree that my preference is the 900 but I can do my job in the same way with older kbds
but I cannot forget my 2/3 hours of study day by day

Chico

Advancing to a new keyboard can produce a learning curve – But if you stay with the same make keyboard you lose about 75% of the relearning curve.
I traveled from a KN1000 (did not miss a model) to the KN7000. It was not a steep learning curve, one continued learning adding their knowledge to the next keyboard.

When I got the KN7000 I applied all that I learned for the previous models, a piece of cake. Not for self-edification, but I knew 95% of every feature on the KN7000.

I am trying to do the same thing with Yamaha – Psr2000 –Psr2100 – Psr3000 – Tyros 1 – Tyros 2 and now S900.

My thoughts, John C.

I've got to be honest guys.., I can't help but often laugh at how fast people on this forum turn over their keyboards, and I agree with Diki that they're turning them over after just barely scratching the surface.

Here's my take on the the subject (this is based on the nearly 9 years I've been a member of this forum and the posts I've read over that time). In my opinion (from what I've seen), many here don't give a crap about voice editing, and creating their own styles. It would seem that the general position here on sounds is (out of box sound quality) that requires little to no user tweeking. I've also noticed through private emails that many here don't actually edit their voices because they honestly have no idea what all those parameters are and how to use them. In terms of styles..., what I've seen is the need for MORE styles...., styles that require little editing or tweeking on the users part.

So many players here IMO honestly have no idea of the power that truely lies beneath the hood of their arranger keyboards, but users don't keep them long enough to even realize it, and the ones that do keep them don't explore many of those useful features. I've read so many complaints about sounds (issues with this, issues with that), and in reality many of those issues can be addressed by the user simply tweeking the voice parameters. I've read complaints about piano patches not being to specific taste when truely all that was needed was a simple adjustment to the filter section.

From what I see is that many here have their nitch and are quite happy with it.. They play what they play, and once their line-up begins to sound old.., rather than dig deeper into the board to unleash the beast within, they just drop it and buy another one to play the same old thing (only with a different sound set) then when that gets old.., well you get my drift.

Myself I keep boards as long as I possibly can until I realize that no matter what I do.., I can't squeeze anymore juice out of the puppy. When I had arrangers, I wrote my own styles because the onboard ones just got old fast. When I had a Casio WK model, I had so many tweeked voices on that unit it wasn't even funny. When I sold the unit I included well over 100 (probably closer to 200) custom tweek sounds to the buyer.

I just think some of you guys give up way too soon. To those of you who have Korg PA's (MY GOODNESS) do you realize the synth engine you've got under your fingers? Even those of you who still have Casio MZ-2000's have an impressive synth section (odd that the Casio MZ-2000 still beats the PSR-S900 and Tyros II in terms of INTERNAL voice editing)

I just think some of you give up way too quick, and that if you took the time to learn how to edit and tweek voices and create your own styles you'd be hanging on to your arrangers much longer than you do. That's just my two cents I guess. Hope I didn't offend anyone.

As usual, Diki speaks the truth........with this caveat (IMO). For the most part, I think this applies only/mainly to 'PRO'S'. I believe that a (well-heeled) 'home player' doesn't have to justify anything in terms of wanting new keyboards, new styles, new features, great styles and sounds right out of the box, never having to crack the manual, etc., etc.

In fact, the Pro's who make their primary income from the music business, DON'T turn over their keyboards every five seconds. They are usually also the best players. Ex. - Capt. Russ has been playing his old 'B' since the late 1800's and only bought a C1 and XK3c for the convenience (not for the newer technology). Diki's G70 was probably the prototype and his G1000 before that dates back to ancient Egypt; same with Fran (who had brief flirtations with a E60?). Gary shows little inclination to update and seems quite content with the performance of his ancient (by technology standards) PSR3000. Donny seems to be the exception but that could be because (as far as I can tell) he is a 'top 10 chaser' which would require a constant supply of new sounds and new styles.

Another thing that's interesting is how we admire a certain new keyboard because it can 'almost' reproduce that DX7 rhodes, or that clavinet, or that MiniMoog, or that B3, or that (fill in the 'classic keyboard of the past').

In the final end, my advice; do what you want, it's your money.

chas

I actually disagree with Dikki on this topic (I know, sacrilege!)

I don't buy new keyboards to "Play" better, I buy new keyboards to "Sound" better.

And as yet, I have yet to find the perfect keyboard that meets my "Core" wants and needs perfectly.

And I "AM" a tweaker, I make new sounds and styles all the time, however, most of today's arrangers have some deficiency that prohibits me from using those sounds and/or styles.

For instance, I created many sounds for the Tyros2, however, it took 5 minutes to load them everytime I booted the darn thing? On a gig with a voltage spike and a re-boot that's 5 minutes of dead air time!

On the Korg it's even worse, If I create a new style that uses a new sound or sample, and save it to a user location on the Style selection buttons, then update the keyboard with the latest and greatest Operating system, I lose all of that, despite a restore from disk!!!!!

So, I keep hoping a manufacturer get's it right in terms of the specific features that I need.

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Al Giordano
Visit us at ARRANGER WORLD! http://www.arrangerworld.com

Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland TD-12 Vdrums, Roland SPD-S.

I have. I've exhausted the possibilities of patch, styles and registration creation on the T2, and I bought a Korg Pa2x last week and just finished reading the manual cover to cover.

And I'm sorry to say that these keyboards do not use a fraction of the technology available...

Here's an idea....instead of using technology to make the keyboard play better, how about using the technology to make YOU play better. Example: turn a 500+lb. organ+Leslie (B3) into a 33lb. organ+Leslie sim (C1). This improves your performance, as it is much easier to play without a hernia.

chas