Zuki - that is not the intention - Dnj also made a point about Hype and the use of the Demo. I am asked to make it sound as good as it can, as an inspiration not a barrier. We push the technology to the limit to show what it can do, and also discover along the way what it cannot.

When I wrote and played the S.A. Sax demo I thought "I wonder if I can make it sound like Michael Brecker" so I wrote a piece that reminded me of a performance I saw of his in 2001 at the Barbican and found that if I played the inflections and chose the right sort of notes,I could get someway there.

We A/B'd it with a recording we had to hand afterwards and it was nice to see it was not a million miles away. for a keyboard. . . .


[This message has been edited by The Insider (edited 08-06-2008).]

The Insider,

I don't know you or what your musical capabilities are but I do know one thing for certain. The demos that Yamaha uses to tout their instruments such as the Tyros 2 and upcoming Tyros 3 are not physically played and recorded on the actual instrument. These demos are done using Cubase, Logic, and only use the instrument as a sound source and nothing more. The demos are then heavily edited i.e. notes shifted, quantized, and even parts step recorded. Why? Because you can't actually play the part on the instrument itself and make it sound anywhere near as good as the demo.

I'm not knocking you for what you are doing, you are paid to make the instrument sound so good that it makes people want to buy one. The fact the customer could never actually play the instrument and sound like the demo is irrelevant to Yamaha. It's called marketing.

I'm curious if you actually had the keyboard version of the Tyros 2 that you did the demo with or did you have one of the rack mount prototype Tyros 2 units Yamaha made?

First of all, I'd like to say it is an honor for us all here to be able to converse with one of the most talented players and programmers we have ever had here. Those ARE exceptional demos, and go a long way to selling the product...

I believe there is a lot of misunderstanding here about what, exactly, a demo is supposed to be. Many here feel that they ought to be of basic arranger play, essentially a 'capture' of someone playing the arranger live. Personally, I'm not one of those, preferring to hear just how far they CAN be pushed, by the most talented players that can be obtained by the manufacturer. If I want to hear simple live play, by a moderately decent player, I can play the damn thing myself! I want to hear what it COULD do when played and programmed the very best it can. Give me something to shoot for, damnit!

At least the demos ARE being played by the arranger itself, and not audio tracks that could have all kinds of unavailable tricks put on the sounds

The thing is, at Yamaha's website, there are PLENTY of audio demos of their arrangers, being played in standard arranger mode, to give those that want to hear straightforward arranger play a listen, but the demos in the arranger itself...? Those are supposed to show just how far you CAN take the instrument, if you use all the technology that is available in it, and computer sequencing, etc... I believe the whole point is to show that, far from being simple 'home entertainment' products, modern TOTL arrangers are capable of close to TOTL workstation results, if you use them that way.

Another widely held misconception is that the demos were done by multiple players on MIDI instruments. Thank you for clearing that up, and showing that you don't need a roomful of expensive MIDI guitars, MIDI drums, etc., etc. to play amazing stuff. But you DO need to work incredibly hard at your craft, to understand how a guitarist thinks and plays, how a drummer creates grooves, how a saxophonist phrases...

Far too many assume that the instrument is supposed to do it all for you, play a simple melody, you are done! The Insider has given us all an invaluable insight that great recordings, and great playing, especially imitative playing, comes from long and hard study of how the best actually play real instruments, and tireless work at getting behind their thinking and technique, and working out how to do it on a keyboard. This is not rocket science, guys...! It's MUCH harder than that

And, for all those saying (or thinking) 'oh, it's all done by sequencing and editing', trust me here... I am positive that, was The Insider to simply PLAY something for you, your jaws would all drop! You can't edit genius into a track... You can only polish the genius that is already in it You polish a turd, you still end up with a shiny turd!

I can only hope that The Insider will stay and drop in as often as he can, and perhaps throw us a tip or two, perhaps some insight into creating good demos, and some advice about playing techniques that get the most realism out of today's incredible arrangers. I know we come off as a crusty bunch, from time to time, but trust me, there ARE some here who would be incredibly grateful for any advice and wisdom you can pass on...

And to Donny, Ensnareyou, etc., what part of



didn't you get..?

HE ACTUALLY PLAYED THEM... In realtime, no less!

What stops us from doing the same?

Talent, not technology, I'm afraid

Lee - just checked out your website and all I can say is Wow! Who would not want a set of friends like that!

To be fair, yes the demos were played on the product (it's the only way that the SA voices respond correctly) and recorded onto my laptop for manipulation of the setup bar
,Volume pan reverb send etc. The Nylon had 3 passes and I changed the velocity of 3 notes on the pass that ended in the product. The Sax I moved 2 notes and added 2(Demisemiquavers just before the high F) as I didn't think about playing those notes as I played them but felt that they just added a touch more realism for the climax, forgive me.

As far as my playing is concerned
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s?ie=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=music&field-artist=Paprika%20Soul&page=1

I played the Theme tune to the last prodction run of "Top of the Pops", I was the Deputy and Musical Director of "Blood Brothers" form 1988-1991 and arranged much of the underscore, I have been Musical Director of Joseph, Jesus Christ Superstar, A Tribute to the Blues Brothers, deputised keyboards on Damn Yankees (with Jerry Lewis in the West End), arranged and designed the (to my knowledge) first Musical rum live by sequencer (Great Expectations, Theatr Clwyd 1994)and written over 120 commercials for my friend Tony Gibber who won a D&DA Gold Award for Best Music in and advert (1991/2 I think). I also remixed Mark Morrison's Horny as part of Mindspell, Dina Carroll (Run To You) Lighthouse Family (Ocean Drive) Shola Ama (You're the One I Want) Martin Okasili (Freedom) Foxy Brown feat. Jay-Z (I'll Be) amongst others.

If you want more info checkout
www.esession.com/andyspiller

Peace

Andy

Hi Lee - love the desk!!

If money were no object it would definitely be an API Vision with ATC 200/100a's for me. . . .

Diki,

Why is it when I state that the Wersi or Medistation can utilize various software and samples to enhance the features that are actually used inside the machine and played on the keyboard you bitch and complain... and yet when "The Insider" utilizes external software and hardware to enhance the sound demos he's producing for Yamaha you're OK with that? You sure waffle about too much.

Contrary to what you think I have never recorded any music of mine any other way than playing it live in real time. Yes, I said REAL TIME. Even parts I record into a sequencer are played live and never edited. I do not edit, manipulate, or tweak any musical notes of my music. My motto is if I can't play it then I shouldn't try to fool someone that I could. Now on the other hand.... when a artist, band, or label hires me to produce their music then I will employ whatever means necessary to make their music sound as good as it possibly can. Most often that means hiring studio musicians to play any parts that the Artist or Band can't. I'm a firm believer in using live musicians and even though I am a keyboardist and can mimic many live parts with my keyboard arsenal, I prefer to hire real players. What a concept!

It's sad that in todays society many people's playing ability isn't up to snuff and they've become reliant on the computer and editing to manipulate and fix things they could never have played. The Insider is an exception as clearly his talent is one that few people have. He's the type of guy I would hire when producing an act in the event myself or the artist couldn't play the part.

I've been fortunate to work with some amazingly talented people and I don't profess to being a great musician but I can play my own music quite well and nobody has seemed to complain of my skills so far.

Andy,

API and old Neve's rock. I've never recorded on any other desk that compares in sound to these two bad boys. SSL's are great when using automation but I'll take an API or Neve desk any day over an SSL.

As you are well aware it doesn't matter what you record or mix on if you can't play it right first, it doesn't matter. You are quite talented and that's very apparent.

Hi Lee

I mixed quite a few things on SSL and to be honest I thought they were not great sounding - unfortuately I used to live directly opposite the factory in Begbroke (actually my daughter still lives about 100 yds down the road) so it was a shame that I felt that way as who knows, maybe I could've got a proper job :-).

I am sure the K series and AWS900 etc sound much better, but in the end I mainly used ORAM desks as the possibility of using Neve or API on the remix budgets we had was non-existent - either there were'nt any (API) or the record companies specified SSL.

I had the great honour of meeting John East at the original SSL factory in Stonesfield (he was the circuit designer, I believe) one weekend before he moved to Sony Oxford - he used to tweak Bass wiring circuits for a hobby and my friend Phil Mulford had a Roger Giffen(?) Bass modified by John - it was one of those truly great tones.

It's quite weird when I think about it actually, as I lived in a town (still nearby now) that makes Wal Basses and Martin Audio PA, and currently is the home to Focusrite, so maybe it was fate that got me into this business.

Either that or stupidity. . . . .:-)

[This message has been edited by The Insider (edited 08-07-2008).]

Andy,

It's good to hear you actually played the tracks from the Tyros keyboard but they were still recorded and edited in Cubase. My beef with the recording method is that most manufacturers never tell the consumer that the demos weren't actually done on the keyboard they are touting.

Roland was notorious for having highly polished demo's that were done in World Class studios with world class musicians utilizing tons of outboard gear. When Eric Persing was doing demos for Roland all the music was mixed on a custom modified Trident console using Roland outboard gear, Eventides, AMS's, EMT plates, and various other high end gear. The demos sounded awesome as they should.

Please don't think I was questioning your playing ability or skills, that wasn't even a question and your resume is impressive to say the least. As I said, you're hired to do a job and whatever means you employ to finish that job is up to you. My complaint is that Yamaha (and other manufacturers) would have the consumer believe that the demo maker played and recorded the demo on the actual instrument which is most often not the case. Some of the demo's were done with rack mount sound modules that employed the Tyros 2 soundset. It's not rare for the demos to be recorded this way since the actual product is most often nowhere near production level when the demos are made.

While you are the exception I know that many of Yamaha's demos were recorded using MIDI based instruments that were played into Cubase via live musicians. Sometimes the only way to mimic a instrument is to actually trigger and play a sample with the real instrument.