AS Jim Nabors said..In Gomer Pyle USMC..


Here it is 16 months after buying my G70..I finally spent time listening and editing (yes editing) synth tones on the G70..

The G70 has a load of great synth tones..that will compete with the Big 3 workstations..20 some pages of tones..

Now the surprise....although the edit tools are slightly different to what I am use too..with workstations....The G70 is really deep with sound design..

I knew there were no LFO controls, but soon found out..I could get the same results as I can on workstations...The way the simple page of edit parameters work together is ..well...surprising..

The vibrato debt , rate and delay along with the cut off and Reso controls ..allow you to come up with rhythmic, pulsing type of effects...and what is really nice on the G70...you have immediate access to the sliders to experiment quickly..
And don't forget the tuning of each part for those 5ths, 7ths and 19ths..

You guys/gals that own a G70 and E-80...Check out the large supply of synth tones on the preset pages...find the unusual tones..then go into tone edit...and experiment to see how the sound designer came up with the interesting movement of the synth tones....

And I didn't even mention the insert effects ..at our finger tips..

When it comes to sound editing ..I and many other folks (although I always gave the edits more credit then most G70 owners)..have sold the G70 short...way short...

Its amazing when you read that people dont like the G70 sounds/Styles OS, & all that it can do, etc, .....it's a super powerful Arranger KB...the ONLY reason I sold mine was the weight & size factor just wasn't practical for my gig needs in that respect alone.... I'm still not over it and miss many of its attributes to this day.

WTG Fran

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-23-2008).]

There are even more on the SRX-07 "Ultimate Keys" expansion board which I recently installed on my E-80 (of all the SRX cards, it's the must have one, IMO.)

Could be one of the reasons retail sales of the G70 have been short...way short...

Ian

Yes,because the arranger majority favorites very simple functions.
Greetings
Peter

Correctomundo...perhaps Roland will address this situation with the next G?

Ian

I don't think so, Roland knows: Oil products like plastics will become very expensive in the near future.
Regards
Peter

Perhaps the next G will be made of balsa wood...would certainly correct the weight issue.

Somebody told me that Wersi was making their cabinets from melted down and recycled prophylactics...I guess it's a safety issue.

Good idea, plenty of us must learn how to swim not only in the bathroom. Keyboards too.
Regards
Peter

I believe the original intention of Roland's G70 was to keep it at home & in studio, not on the road.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-24-2008).]

From day one the G series {starting with the G800) was considered (and called) a Professional arranger...To me that means ..to use in any "professional" manner seen fit...and in my case....that includes on the road besides in the studio...

They were built durable..not to just sit in the studio..

If the rumor is true that Wersi is making their cabinets from melted down and recycled prophylactics...they would surely be more flexible than the Roland.

BTW...the G70 is a well built (heavy) home keyboard (hence the single finger chord mode) that is sometimes used by professionals.

I wonder how many sales Roland lost due to the weight & size of the G70?

For a minute there Ian, I thought you were actually saying,
"Hence the single finger chord mode that is sometimes used by professionals."


John

Although I dont.......many professionals use the ONE FINGER MODE.......

Is it looked down upon?

Actually Ian..Roland uses an "intelligent" mode..not a one finger mode...
I hope I don't have to explain the difference to you..

For you guys that drop a note with in a chord while trying to play in arranger mode..

Look at it as a forgiving mode for lazy players..

Now Yamaha is definitely a one finger play unit..and not very well..

I'm sure Roland didn't even consider using a sub par build quality in order to sell more G70's. You can't expect a product to withstand the rigors of daily use on and off the road if its made like a plastic toy. I've yet to see Roland build their professional products with materials most children's toys are made of. Yamaha has the monopoly on that Market. Yamaha's theory... "If you build it with cheap plastic, garish and cheap lighted buttons, and a flimsy feeling 61 note keybed, they will come". So far the sheep have followed wherever Yamaha has herded them.

AMEN!!!!...

Being a synthesizer manufacturer who actually made some of the finest synths ever produced, Roland (unlike Yamaha), saw fit to have extensive synthesis features within their arrangers and workstations. If one delves into the inner workings of their arranger as Fran found out, there's often far more under the hood than you ever expected.

Roland's keyboards and modules also make great use of Expansion cards, unlike Yamaha who often produce a product that can use expansion cards although heavily gilded. For example... on my Yamaha 9000 Pro it had expansion slots which Yamaha heavily touted but they were mere afterthoughts. Most of the editing for the expansion cards wasn't implemented within the 9000 Pro's software and in fact the real time hardware itself couldn't be utilized to control the feature set of the expansion card. That's like saying we're going to give you a Superbird Hemi 440 but you can only drive it on 2 cylinders. What the hell!

Leave it to Yamaha to tout a product as professional, expandable, and future proof, only to knowingly sell a product that was outdated before it ever hit the market. The 9000 Pro didn't fail because it wasn't built well, actually it was the only Yamaha arranger that was well made as far as construction went and one of the primary reasons I purchased a 9000 Pro. It failed because what Yamaha claimed it could do it couldn't deliver on and it's software was so bug ridden and its CPU so underpowered, it couldn't perform the tasks Yamaha claimed. Their only option.... discontinue the 9000 Pro and try not to lay claim to it like a redheaded stepchild.

Yamaha manufactured the CS80, the holy grail of analog synthesizers and a personal favorite of mine. Why then can't they make an arranger or workstation that has extensive synthesis features that are easy to use, sound fantastic, and aren't packaged in a manner akin to Playskool? Actually that's disrespecting Playskool because they build their products well to withstand the rigors of small children.

I realize the bulk of users buying Yamaha PSR and arranger products are home users but for the few professionals that do use these products, Yamaha's build quality is laughable. I'd never even have considered buying the 9000 Pro if it were built in the same manner a Tyros 2 is. From the specs it looks like the Tyros 3 will be the same build of the Tyros 2 yet it costs a ridiculous amount of money. For me that just means one less purchase consideration.

Nope...no need to explain...I guess if you need to use it, and you're a professional (by your own admission), then it is serving it's purpose.

It is still basically a home keyboard IMO, but it's okay if you disagree...it's not that important.

Ian

You can call his G-70 a "Home Keyboard" all you want, but NOTHING Yamaha makes in the arranger department compares to the PRO BUILD QUALITY of the Roland G-70. At least Roland has the sense that when they make a pro arranger..., they at least BUILD it like a pro arranger... Sorry, but the same can't be said for the so called PRO arranger Tyros 2...

You can call it a home keyboard, but at least Roland builds it so it CAN be taken out of the home and truely stand up to road use... Can you say the same thing about your cardboard S-900 and that very delicate shell on the Tyros 2...?????

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-24-2008).]

Certainly I can...I've toured with a Tyros 2 and S900 and they were both problem free...and a real joy to transport because of their much lighter weight.

Weight does not always translate into quality...or we'd all be using the old style cell phones...remember them?

Stay in the dark ages if you wish...but most of us enlightened players have moved on to better and lighter instruments.

Ian

You keep falling for that one Ian. Lighter doesn't mean better built. Lighter 99.99% of the time translates to cheap and shotty construction and lower quality parts. Perhaps you're stuck in the dark ages as it's so often funny that again 99.99% of the time the whiners in regards to keyboard weight come from arranger players.

So many people lug around pro synths EVERY FREAKIN DAY TO MULTIPLE GIGS. Why is it always the arranger performers crying about a keyboard weighing more than 25 lbs? Geez, a company builds a pro quality instrument (one that truely compares to the pro workstations), and look at all the boo hooing about the weight.

I think the Tyros 2 sounded great, enjoyed the styles, loved the key action so much I wanted to make love to the keybed, BUT MY GOODNESS...., Jesus standing there himself couldn't have convinced me I was playing a so called PRO instrument. How cheaply built that thing was compared to other pro keyboards.

No Squeak...it is you who keeps falling for that one...enlighten yourself...live in the "now' use a Yamaha and be one with the universe.

Ian

Ian, I am one of the players that use at least 4 fingers to play the arranger recognition... sometimes I will even add the thumb..

I was taught chords..both theory and how to play them...with both hands.....

what happened to my topic...

Sorry Fran...my mistake...I was just going by the demos I heard you play.

Forgive me.

Ian

Ian, if you are allowed in the USA..stop by and maybe we can trade 4's as Russ says...Then ..just maybe we can separate the skilled from the bull..

So are you still touring with that light keyboard?
Where do you tour? From one side of town to the other?

Maybe a coffee shop?......

Probably no more that the almost as equally weighty (four pounds lighter) G1000 lost.

Roland's big problem was adding almost a grand to the price compared with the G1000.

As to build quality, perhaps Roland build them that way because their customers are usually SO happy with them, they keep them for decades, unlike the apparently dissatisfied Yamaha customers, who can't WAIT to trade over to whatever new model Yamaha come out with, rendering LONG-term reliability moot...

I expect at least ten years or more of constant gigging out of anything I use. I see a lot of bad button and keyboard problems from those that try to push a Yamaha that hard. Maybe this is why they always seem so desperate fro the NEXT Yamaha to come out? I am certainly in no rush for a new Roland....

From what I've read here, it seems to me that so many bailed on the G70 at first because they were usually Yamaha users (it's a COMPLETELY different OS and mode of operation) who just never put enough time into it to actually learn even basic operation, yet alone the in-depth aspects of the OS that Fran is talking about here. And some passed on it in it's early days, before the OS upgrades fixed most of the niggles.

But hey! Keep passing up on it, guys! Sooner or later I'm going to pick me up a nice cheap backup G70, from someone too impatient to understand what they are letting slip out their hands Thank God for Yamaha players! There wouldn't be nearly as many good condition used G70's running around if it wasn't for them

And for those that their health is such that they CAN'T carry a G70 (or even roll it!), just exactly how many of you have even tried an E60? Most of the G70's strengths, and sounds (and style compatibility) at 28 lb. From what I've read, barely a handful have even played one. A 76, at 28 lb.! What are you waiting for? A Yamaha 76?

I have already done that Fran...that's why I mentioned your demos.

Ian

Ian.., your problem is you've been in bed with Yamaha too long. Myself..., and those here on the Zone who know me... know well that I am not a ONE brand guy. I do like Yamaha, but NEVER in a million years would I buy one of Yamaha's top arrangers (especially when I can get one of their pro synths for much less and one built 10 times better). If I didn't like Yamaha I wouldn't have a Yamaha Motif ES6... Sure I've owned their lower end stuff, but for the price they ask on the high end arrangers and how they're built.., there's absolutely NO WAY.

AND DIKI IS DEAD ON RIGHT ABOUT SOMETHING... All the bitchin about the G-70's weight.., when there's a baby G-70 called the E-60. 76 good keys, good styles, good sounds, and did I mention 76 FREAKIN keys.... with built in speakers and all that coming in at like 28lbs....

Fran on your topic... Kudo's for exploring the G's synth capabilities. I've said for years on this forum that (from what I've seen over the years about presets) that if some of the arranger owners here took the time to look.., they'd realize that the tools to make their sounds better are onboard. Complaints about this piano too bright, this one too dark, blah blah.., when the solution is a simple filter adustment (and not using an insert EQ effect). I'm glad you're enjoying the synth power of your G. Keep twistin up those sounds..., as it's a lot of fun. I still say however.., that it would be nice to find dedicated real-time control of synth parameters on the panel of pro arrangers. Could you imagine the modern music you could make if your arranger had a rotary knob that let you do filter sweeps in real-time! Slider just don't cut it IMO..., ya need to grab a knob.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-24-2008).]

No,Squeak...I don't have a problem.

I just happen to love the product.

That's why I sleep where I do.

Ian

There's quite a few fans of the ARP's that might disagree, there, squeak. Plus all the Roland Jupiter's, Juno 106's, Kurzweil K2500's etc., etc..

It's not so much HOW you adjust a parameter, it's that the parameter HAS a controller, no matter what kind it is

But preset styles, preset sounds, preset songs... That's what drives the arranger industry. Sad, ain't it?

Yeah.., too much preset.., and not enough YOUsets I guess that's a fine line between arranger players and WS players. It seems the average arranger want's that out of box preset, and the WS players want the ability to take that same preset and make it a YOUSet.

Sliders and knobs are a matter of personal taste I guess. I like sliders, but for some things I prefer the knobs.

I prefer sliders...

Slider positions are easier to read at a glance, and sliders have the advantage of letting the player move more than one at a time.

Ian

Personally, I'm VERY pleased with the 9 sliders under the display of my new E-80. Especially for adjusting volume-levels "on the fly" while playing along with a song or style. Great!


------------------
- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl

True that, Ian!

squeak, you'd be amazed at the number of WS players I've seen that barely touch the presets, either!

I think it is far more to do with the player than the capability of the keyboard itself. Most arrangers have reasonably powerful voice editing if you WANT to use it.

Finding that desire is the trick...

It is by me.......except that I would never classify that individual a professional in the first place.

chas

I'm suprised too, Fran. Most true geeks wouldn't have a keyboard five minutes, much less 16 months, before getting under the hood to "see what she'll do". So what were you too busy collecting SMF's? Glad you were able to shed some light on that one-finger-chord thing, though. It's good to be an expert in at least one area.

On the whole busines of sound design, there seems to be a divergence between the super techy and the super player. There are always exceptions, of course (Wendy Carlos), but in my experience, their interests and goals are usually completely different. There is the supergeek/tweaker who is always looking for the 'perfect' piano but when they finally find it, it rarely inspires them to produce a great piece of music with it. Just getting the sound is what turns them on.

There are so many variables in every thing related to music that it's impossible to say ANYTHING with any certainty. That's why all opinions are equally valid (except mine, which is usually somewhat superior).

chas

I know many Keyboard arranger players that use the one finger chord option & sound great because they have a strong right hand & super vocals, but are weak in the left hand chord dept... its just another playing technique that is offered on the unit, so who is to say whats good & bad if its acually there to be used by the player just like any other of the features to make music.....I used fingered, the next guy full keyboard mode...who cares.....it's what the music produced sounds like that is what I'm concerned with always when I hear it.

I also agree with you Chas on many things you said in the other post regarding "Super Geek Tweakers" who don't play well but are always in search of the "perfect sound".....good post which makes alot of sense..

Donny, I have to admit that I don't know much about the one-finger-chord method of arranger playing (I have honestly never tried it) but I have to believe that it is just there as an aid to a total non-playing beginner but never intended as a way to trigger sophisticated style loops which depend upon chord recognition. Also, how good could a guys right hand be if he can only manage a one finger chord with his left hand (unless he's Bob Dole). You may be right about knowing 'pro's' like that but I have to admit, I'm skeptical. I don't think that because that feature is there on an arranger, is any excuse for a 'pro' not to play it at the highest level it's capable of. JMO, of course.

chas

My main problem with the One Finger systems is that it stymies growth, repertoire and musical development.

It's actually a superior system for controlling an arranger, in some senses, because the limited choice makes it MUCH easier for the arranger to divine the chord you want (or are playing, at least ) and to serve it up without ambiguity and the resultant glitches as you try to play a four or more note chord fast enough that the arranger doesn't have time to figure something out from the first two or three notes you play fractionally before the other one or two notes get played...

But it's major drawback comes from the tiny handful of chords that it recognizes, especially when you want to do inversions extensions and 'slash' chords. It makes you 'dumb down' the changes, whether you need to (from inexperience) or not. Especially in the case of the elderly player, who looks for a shortcut, but sadly usually wants to play music that has FAR more chordal complexity (jazz and swing, ballroom and latin) than most pop and R&B musics, yet alone today's three chord slacker cr@p!

It's all well and good to learn a system, but if that system you learn doesn't translate to ANY other keyboard (one finger systems tend to be slightly different across manufacturers), it puts you in a technological dead end, AND frustrates you when faced with any other keyboard than the one you learned on...

And, in all fairness, once you DO try to do more complex chords and extensions on a OFS, you end up playing nearly as much as if you had simply learned the correct way to voice things! But, of course, try to play that rubbish with a left hand sound WHILE you are triggering the chords, and you get mush and nonsense..

I think I also agree with chas on the fact that I don't think that anyone that CAN'T play decently with their LH could ever be described as being 'strong' in the right. Adequate... maybe (barely), but strong? Please I'm sorry, but being able to play a melody without much in the way of embellishment hardly qualifies as 'adequate', yet alone strong, and the interminable number of user demos that seem quite ecstatic in their own ability to simply get through the piece without screwing up the melody or basic chords (forget even playing in the pocket!) simply point to just how low the bar gets, sometimes, around here...

Blowing a decent solo, and reharmonizing on the fly are NOT the sole province of the technical jazz player. Darn near every pop tune out there has a solo of some kind or another in it. Are THEY content to repeat the stupid melody with maybe a different sound? Hell no!

If you want to grow musically, if you want to play older tunes with the CORRECT chords (not the big print bullsh!t), if you want to NOT tie yourself down to one manufacturer, one type of keyboard, if you EVER want to play in a live band, even for fun, you HAVE to learn to play chords correctly. And the sad fact is, it's no more difficult than learning the complexities of a OFS once you get past the baby steps of simple minor and major and sevenths.

So pull that One Finger out your asses, and spend a few weeks (if that) learning the proper way to voice chords! You'll thank me for it later...

I give the One Finger salute to the One Finger Chord system

Chas just take a person with an accordion background where buttons vs keys is the norm....then the switch to and arranger KB.....here in lies the weakness....there are other scenarios also. Its also a very easy way for people to get started playing who might be up in the years and don't have the time or desire to go though extensive training, One Finger mode makes it a bit easier.

As far Strong right hands....
PLLLLLEEEEAAASSEEEE look at some of the rock band KB players with all their high C organ runs all the time & nothing to do with their left hands....lets start with maybe Paul Shaffer & countless others....

There is a difference & there is strong Right hands my friends....weak left ones combined.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-24-2008).]

Ok, I now HAVE to do this. I know English is not my first language and I don't mean to lecture anyone here, but every time I see you write "yet alone" I think to myself "no Diki, it's "let alone", not "yet alone" :-) Sorry. Had to say it.

And on topic: My grandfather grumbled something about "three chord cr@p" when Bill Haley came along. Nothing new there

------------------
- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl

All this pent up frustration. I guess it's OK to have a little pissing contest now and then. It HAS been quiet over the summer. I will simply say that I have one of the very few E60's around and I love it. If it had the vocal processor it would rival the G70, IMO.

As for Fran's original post, I agree that I rarely get past the first few levels of ANY machine. I have never been one to tinker too much with editing. That's way the Hammond drawbars are/were so great - you had immediate sound gratification. And you could save it if you really needed to OR you could simply recreate it live.

The last keyboard I tinkered with was the Juno 106 - made a great B3 patch - by accident - and saved it as two patches, fast and slow Leslie.

Jeez... it's hard enough to even think this stuff up, LET ALONE get criticized for my grammar by a Dutch guy, of all people! You can tell I've been over here in the United States of Amnesia a bit too long! Starting to talk like the President... Just weighing my 'nucular' options, here. What kind of retaliatory capability DOES Holland have, anyway..?

Nice catch, Burkels!

I guess I'll just have to return to the monosyllabic grunts and emoticon punctuation that mostly populate this forum.

I have never seen too many piano players who play a 5 finger chord on the left hand, particularly below C3 or C4, gets way muddy down that end.

And I suspect that those who use "Full Keyboard Mode" are possibly mostly playing a max of about 3 notes with the left hand and in most cases 2..

You certainly don't need to be playing the root using the arranger bassline, and even less if you are playing the bassline yourself with the left hand and the rest with the right. I know thats the way I play.

One finger two finger, three finger, doesn't much matter if you are expressing your art in a way that connects with others and gives them a glimpse of you.

Dennis

That's possibly the strongest point (well, OK, ONE of the strongest points!) of the G70 over the E60, Cassp... Hit one button, and all the sliders are IMMEDIATELY active as voice editing sliders. So the 'instant gratification' thing is just as high as a Juno106, ARP, etc..

Me, I'd want this LONG before I gave a hoot about the stupid harmonizer....

In the meantime, all those editing possibilities have MIDI CC controls, so a nice cheap MIDI fader/knob controller would give you the tactile 'instant gratification' you look for, without ponying up for a G70.

Gotta watch out for high flying clogs..floating Edams and those windmill blades did poor ole Don in as well don't forget...yep, EU is gonna have to have words with em no doubt, gotta tone down da retrik orl right!!!

What's the One Finger equivalent of a C+7(b9), Dennis?

That's what I'm talking about. If you can learn to get this with a OFS, you can learn how to voice a basic Maj or Min with more than one finger, too. And if you CAN'T play this with a OFS, what do you do if the song needs it?

If you only learn the shortcut, not the real chord, how do you learn what is an acceptable substitute? Most people that use the One Finger system haven't the slightest clue about what the chord IS, and what it DOES. It's just a rote system they learn, which generally obstructs any learning about what chords do what, and what can and can't be used as substitutes.

But the main thing they screw up is the ability to sit at anything other than an arranger, and be able to play. Don't get me wrong... I know some people aren't the slightest bit interested in learning anything. And we've ALL heard what those guys (and gals!) sound like. The same desire for a shortcut for the LH usually equates to a lazy RH, too...

But some people MIGHT want to consider what a dead end this is, and how badly learning some of these stupid systems will screw it up for them when they finally DO decide to try and progress and learn how to voice chords correctly. I know several people that have confessed it was MUCH harder for them to learn real chords, once they had learned a OFS. They all said they wished they'd never learned it, now...

I think we ALL have music going on in our heads that is JUST a bit harder to play than maybe our ability is right now... The trick is to not get locked into a system that will NEVER allow you to progress without going back and unlearning the whole thing.

JMO...

Diki, I do agree with what you are saying, totally..

What I was meaning was that as long as the person knows how to voice the rest of the chord, ie with the right hand, you can create those chords by using a one finger chord system.. Press C and you get the cmaj chord left side, add the augmented 5 and 7 and flat 9 with the right hand, and there you have the C+7b9, it can be done, I don't do it that way and you certainly don't, BUT others may want to.

HOWEVER and the big BIG BUT is....as you said, they would need to have the knowledge of how to construct the embellishments with the right hand and in what context they can then be applied..

A lot of the time when I am in pure arranger mode,(which is rare), I will deliberately only play a simple triad as I really cannot stand some of the crappy embellishments the arrangers throw in, so I add these myself.

Although I must admit that even though they are only triads, I still HAVE to play them with three fingers, even if its not necessary with the Korg Expert recognition mode. It just doesn't feel right otherwise.

But I do understand why other players, ESPECIALLY those with an accordion background would prefer a 1 or 2 finger chord system for the left hand.

Mind you, these players would put even the best current keyboard players a bit in the shade with their superb right hand technique and dexterity. Not to mention a fundamental mastery of chord structures.

Just gotta listen to some of the jazz accordionists to see that.

I figure its just one of those, "everything in its place and a place for everything" type situaions when it comes to how users choose to get to chordal results.

Dennis

OMG ... I can't wait to get back to school to see the maturity of my TEENAGERS. You guys need a new hobby or something to amuse yourselves. This post has gotten horribly abusive. Lighten up, please.

Harmonizer...........one of the best, if not the very best feature on an arranger for the OMB who utilizes every tool to polish an act. I would NEVER go back to a board without a first class harmonizer (like the 800). It is just too cool and really separates a lot of performers.

I only wish I could find more than a tiny number of demos where it doesn't sound like a bad kazoo. And those are ones where it sounds like a GOOD kazoo!

This effect, IMO, sounds gimmicky at it's BEST, and distractingly terrible at it's average. Don't ask me what I think of it at it's worse!

We've got an Eventide Orville in the studio. And I don't even like that much! And it cost more than my whole G70 The day someone plays a demo that the harmonizer in an arranger can make you sound like more than one person actually singing (not vocoding one voice), I'll re-evaluate the feature. But with a total lack of any convincing examples (and I HAVE heard 'A Nightingale Sang'!) in the real world, I just have to pass on this one.

I'd rather PLAY a harmony on a sax sound, or something like that... At least there you can get contrapuntal and dissonant, if you want to.

LMAO, m8, some of the performers I have heard using a harmoniser get PLENTY of dissonance!!!

Seriously though used sparingly and in the right place, they are not too bad, particularly the Helicons..They some pretty good algorithms and have invested heavily in R+D to get good sounding boxes.

Dennis

'Not too bad' is just not good enough, IMO...

'Not too bad' drums don't cut it, 'not too bad' pianos don't cut it, and 'not too bad' Hammond's don't cut it, either

At these inflated prices, 'not too bad' IS too bad, in my book!

I'm still waiting to hear anything from the real world that ISN'T 'too bad' for me...

Outstanding! That means I might be one of few that makes it sound like the real deal There is the occasional onlooker who knows and comments on its authenticity - good enough for me and for what I hear. No more paying band members who can't carry a tune in a basket.

Hmmmmmm?....At least Uncle Dave showed us what a Voc Harmonizer can do in the hands of a Pro KB player on a "Nightingale Sang" .....
http://www.boydsongs.com/A%20Nightingale%20Sang.html

using it VERY sparingly at most is the key.
most of them really stink.

I agree........I said a "few", which would (in my ears) certainly include UD.

Donny, I have to say it again...you were the inspiration that lead me to check out the PA800 and I will be eternally grateful Your initial assessment was right on!

In time, I will let my work out of the bag. I'm about done with my studio setup and will offer tunes after that.

Yep... it's great what he has done with this, but it utterly fails to convince me that those are real singers.

If this is the BEST the feature can do, that doesn't bode well, IMO.

Anyone point me somewhere with a different approach?

Diki,

You probably think too much/hard. Nothing wrong with perfection I suppose, but even the purist live harmony singers can be flat and crappy. Everyone has different ears, thank God. Give me a TC and a great/on key voice to lead it. Sometimes close enough is VERY good enough and some stuff we've all heard is downright amazing. How about that Roland harmonizing keyboard? Please don't tell me that isn't incredible. The best part is not having to pay my TC hardware after each performance.

Zuki.....Thanks I really glad you gave it another look....its a fine arranger, with some great features.......good luck with your studio work.....Hope to hear some tunes soon also for sure!! keep us posted!

Diki your the 1%...I'm sure Dave's audiences love his harmony work on stag for years.99.9% dont know the difference....as a OMB act you have to do it all.

Sorry, Zuki, but my G70's harmonizer impresses me no more than any other (except maybe the Yamaha's, but that's just the DEGREE of 'bad', not 'good' and 'bad' )

You will never find me to be a 'my keyboard, right or wrong' guy. When it's bad, I speak my mind

Have you ever heard an Orville? It's an over $3000 harmonizer, basically the industry's best. I don't even like IT much, for these exposed harmony things... Bury it in the mix, and it's OK, I guess, but it just seems everyone that uses a harmonizer on an arranger puts it front and center, warts and all.

The strange thing is, with MP3 players on most arrangers these days, you'd think if the harmonies were THAT important, you could make an MP3 of the song, and have REAL harmonies in there, courtesy of your DAW... But no! Cheezy fake vocoder quasi-harmonies abound!

And yes, I know they are good enough for the audience. But they don't have to hear it EVERY night! I've got to be happy before they are happy... I bet you get a few people come up to you and tell you the sax sounds like a REAL sax player, too. But do you honestly think it does? Like a 'good' sax player, that is (anyone can play like a high school marching band sax player!)? No, of course not. It sounds 'good', but nothing like the real thing.

Same with harmonizers, IMO...

Diki

If you feel that way about Voc harmonizers in general...then I would assume all arrangers in general will never convince you either with their sounds because none of them sound like the real thing judging by your code....but your playing one!

But I'm playing it with live bands as much as I can

Now, I've heard arranger pieces that I thought got VERY close to a live band sound. I've heard acoustic pianos that can fool even the pickiest of ears. I've heard brass section work, organ playing, flute solos, guitar solos, all of which get me to within a hair's breadth of thinking I AM listening to the real thing.

But I've never heard an arranger harmonizer that got within a country MILE of convincing me I was listening to a real singer.

Which is why I don't use it. I'm not saying the rest of you shouldn't, it's up to you and your style, and your audience. But I am saying that, IMO, of all the areas of an arranger's sound, it is the most hideously obviously fake.

But, who knows? There's a new generation of harmonizers out there that sound (to my ears) far better than any of the built-ins. In fact, a couple of things I've heard got close to the Orville So, who knows? Maybe this newer technology might trickle down into our new arrangers and make the effect less vocoder-ish, in the future.

But for now... Sorry, but I'll take a pass

Just a quick sidenote:
"Nightengale" was recorded on a Digitech VR. The TC unit in the PA800 is even better than that. I'll try to update that song one day soon, so you can hear the improvement.

No one really believes that a OMB is playing everything they hear, not do they believe that the harmonies are real, but they ar very convincing in the context in which they are intended. The harmony on the PA800 is on par with the ryhthm styles etc that "add to" the live arrangement. Sure, a ral, live vocal group would sound better IF ( big IF ) they were 100% in sync and in tune ... my singers ALWAYS are!

I've said before that I'd rather play a good arranger than a bad piano anyday .... same goes for the backing voices. If I can't have Manhattan Transfer with me, then the PA800 is my next best option. I'd much rather have the fullness and the added pizzazzzzz, then sing alone all night.o
I'd SOooo miss doing my:
Mills Bros
Beach Boys
Andrews Sisters
4 Aces
Dave mason (We Just Disagree!)

I'll never give up the vocals. Never !

Some people buy the luxury car for the heated seats, while others buy the less expensive model because the get the same seating capacity.

Whatever...

Chas, you missed my surprise!!!..It was not a case of me not getting under the hood....

As I mentioned in the past...I usually find out more about a keyboard in 3 days ..than most folks do..in 3 months...

The point that I was illustrating....was the way the synth tones were designed...via the G70's simple but effective tools...and how well they worked together....Not something that most folks would even consider looking at....

I gave careful listening to some of the synth tones..and thought ..to myself.. ..How is Roland getting this sweep..or pulse...So I searched to see if I missed any hidden parameters...nope...didn't miss anything...So I looked at the simple tone edit page...started to experiment using the vibrato and filters together...and Surprise...I was able to duplicate the effects that brought the synth tones to life...namely the movement of the tones...

Chas, I hope this helps you understand this tech geek a little more...

I do understand, Fran. Actually, I was just funnin' with you.

the fourth amigo (yeah, right),

chas

4th Amigo? ........Chas there is always room at our breakfast table common up sometime? Or, we could lounge around Dave's estate poolside listen to Jazz on a BOSE L1 with a Ice Cold Margarita also & talk about Diki !!

Yes..you can share grits with Donny..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 08-25-2008).]

Oh Fran, Fran, Fran. You came soooooo close. You ALmost made it to the end of this thread without showing your true colors (no pun intended). Oh well.

Anyway, I can only make it to breakfast if I can bring my own personal food taster (Ian).

D'artagnan

Now get out there in your neighborhood and start putting up some of those Obama/Biden posters.

Chas...you got it all wrong!!!!

Donny loves grits...and I can't stand them....


Surely ..you love grits too...

Had to add a little zinger...since you thought that was my intention...


Chas, when I think of you..I don't think of white, black, red or green...or Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, ..atheists....


I only picture an "arrogant, old man"...

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 08-25-2008).]

Lots of butter on MY Grits oh yeah!!!

Arrogant? :EEK:


Nigel get the lock ready

I'm not arrogant....... .

Actually when you think of me, it's ok to think green ($$$ and conservation) and Atheist (I don't dislike anyone........except 'true believers').

On my one encounter with grits, there was a disgusting-looking skim that had formed on the top and now, just the mention of them makes me nauseous.

Actually, Fran, just conversing with you makes me nostalgic and homesick. Sometimes, I will have to share with you some stories about gigs we did in certain 'ethnic' clubs in South Philly back in the day. They were usually booked by our drummer, Al Martino, a second cousin of the 'real' Al Martino. Our guitarist was 'Boogaloo' Joe Jones, a fine funk/jazz guitarist who should have made it much further than he did. We did okay but found it prudent to add a few Sinatra tunes to our playlist. One memorable gig: finished the gig at 2:00am, finished loading up by 2:30am, bar demolished by a bomb @ 4:00am. We relieved Al of his booking duties.

Ciao,

chas

Say Goodnight Gracie ...