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#240858 - 08/26/08 07:01 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
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#240859 - 08/26/08 07:17 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Member
Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
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Originally posted by ianmcnll: Wow...looks impressive(especially the sliders), and, from the on-line demos, sounds impressive as well.
Can't wait to get my demo model and start exploring the great new features.
It's going to be a fun autumn for sure.
Ian the Excited Ian, Why is it that every keyboard "Yamaha" makes is great in your world? I wonder if the fact you work for Yamaha has anything to do with it? Your credibility is weak because of your failure to show any type of objectivity towards Yamaha products. This isn't Candyland and everything Yamaha makes is not "perfect", far from it! It seems you live in a world with blinders on when it comes to Yamaha products. So the Tyros 3 has 9 tiny sliders, BFD. It looks nearly identical to the Tyros 2 with the addition of some sliders and a few button changes. I almost forgot, they smoothed the corners of the case out, how impressive! I see no groundbreaking technology within the T3, its styling, or sound demo's so what's so impressive? If the Tyros 3 was made by Roland, Korg, Ketron, Wersi, or even Casio I'll bet you wouldn't be impressed at all. Without the big "Y" on the front its simply not worth touting in Ian Land. Perhaps instead of "Ian the Excited" it should be "Ian the Yamaha whore"? What you are doing is certainly pandering. I've sold high end pro audio gear and at least when my clients asked me about products I let them know the pitfalls and the positives of each product and I didn't try to hawk anything just to sell a particular brand or product. To stand up on a soapbox and proclaim everything Yamaha makes caters to everyone is simply ridiculous and shows a complete lack of integrity on your part.
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#240863 - 08/26/08 08:33 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Member
Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
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Originally posted by ianmcnll: Thanks for letting everyone know just how blatantly ignorant and coarse you are, Mr Ensnoreyou.
Your post fails to curb my enthusiasm for the Tyros3...it will be a winner for sure..
Yamaha is simply the best in my opinion...that's why I work for them.
Faults I may have...being wrong is not one of them.
Envy is a terrible curse...you should seek professional help...Fran may be kind enough to share his analyst with you...if you can get past the Roland suit and tie.
Ian
Ian, I would never try to curb your enthusiasm for any Yamaha product as that would be fruitless. I'm certain the Tyros 3 will sell well although whether that would classify it as a "winner" would be subjective. Yamaha's bean counters will determine whether or not enough profit is made to call it a winner for them. It is after all their only concern, to make money. It's clear to me you don't have any other opinions except "Yamaha is best" because the Yamaha Puppet Master won't let you say anything without it being approved first. It's the same reason other Yamaha employees who lurk on this board would never say anything contrary to what Yamaha wants them to even if their opinions differ from their employers. As I said before, your tongue and hands are tied when it comes to being objective about Yamaha and that's evident. Claim whatever you want but you can't and won't be objective about a Yamaha product, it's as simple as that. Anyone else would classify that as a major fault but you see it as a positive. Only in "Ian Land" does that work. I'm not sure why you'd think I would "Envy" anyone or anything and to imply that is ludicrous. If I wanted a Tyros 3 I could buy one. The same could be said for any other product out there. I'm fortunate enough to be able to buy whatever works best for me and price is not a consideration when it comes to my buying decisions. What matters to me are build quality, features, sounds, ease of use, a well laid out GUI, and whether or not the instrument can do what is claimed of it. Expandability and software support are important as well but not as important if the product meets my needs from the onset. I hear K-Mart is having a blue light special on balls. Perhaps you should go out and buy yourself a pair and then maybe you'll start being more objective in your opinions. All that's "Y' is not grand.
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#240867 - 08/26/08 09:10 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Ian, perhaps the reason you are often met with hostility from some members is because even though this is the "general arranger" forum..., YOU like so many in the past have turned it into a PRO YAMAHA forum. In the past this forum had a serious bias for Yamaha keyboards and there were quite a few complaints about that.
That's great you support Yamaha.., but YOU often (trying to keep it not so obvious) snub any keboard mentioned here that's not Yamaha, and you do the same thing to members as well.
If you like Yamaha.., that's great. Keep enjoying their products, but stop with the smart ass comments. You say you won't fall into being baited yet you do the same damn thing to try and bait someone else with a smart ass remark.
On the topic of the pic. WOW those slider have a very short throw on them! I still don't understand why they keep making the darn shell so big though. The Tyros started with a floppy (which we often joked about as a cup holder too), but with the Tyros 3.., why in the hell are they still wasting all that space around the USB jack? They could easily shave off an extra inch or two-AND make the board lighter, which Im sure will please many.
[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-26-2008).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#240868 - 08/26/08 09:14 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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Post from YPKO forum ......."returned to the MIAC Show today for a second look at the T3. This time I had a better Digital Camera. I am posting 7 photos….first 3 in this Post (max of 1500kb per post I understand) and the last 4 in a followup post(s) Unfortunately, today was even noisier than yesterday so it was still difficult to fully evaluate the Sound quality even with headphones on. The built-in Demo in the T3 has a Comparison of some T2 vs T3 sounds….Piano, Organ and a few more. In general the T3 sounds seem to be more dynamic and even more realistic as far as I could tell (given the surrounding noise). The improved DSP is supposed to enhance (fuller sounding) even the sounds/voices which have not been changed. The Demos sound very good but I suspect they have been heavily edited using Sequencing software…don’t think most players will be able to reproduce those results playing the T3 live. However the two new SA2 buttons should be a great help for expressive playing and Yamaha’s demonstrator Blake used them in a nice demo of the SA2 Breathy Sax despite the fact that he had not had much time to practice with the T3….I can’t wait to hear demos from people like Michel Vonken in Europe! The SA2 voices were available for Sax , Clarinet, Irish Pipe and Harmonica and they all sounded great. Some of the Piano, Organ, Guitar, Flute and Drum sounds are new/improved.. but they are not listed as SA2 voices. However they still sound very good. Re The Styles from the T2….they seem to be all there. Some(most?) of them are supposed to have been tweaked/improved a bit but I could not tell with all the surrounding noise. The on/off Power button is now on the rear panel. Re Prices…..www.zzounds.com is advertising the T3 in the US for $3900USD …they state that the List price is $4,900 USD For those who don’t already have a T2, getting a T3 for about the same price as a T2 I think is a pretty good deal….more features and improved quality for the same price(at least in North America). For those already owning a T2 and thinking of upgrading, I guess it comes down to factors such as: -Price of T3 vs T2 in your country -How much can you get for a Trade-in of your T2 -What’s your perceived value of the new features and improvements ( 80Gb HD, new improved screen, sliders, USB2, LAN port, rounded shape, SA2 , new styles, new voices etc) For many people it will come down to whether they feel the T3 sounds and plays much better than the T2 (which I feel is still a very good sounding keyboard). Because of the surrounding noise problem I am sorry I cannot yet give a confident opinion of how much better the T3 sounds over the T2. You all will soon have your chance to try the T3 (hopefully in quieter surroundings) and make up your minds. Finally some comforting comments. The production model T3 never crashed or hung up while I was there. Everything seemed to work well and hopefully this augers well for the reliability of the T3. My only complaint was the “non-intuitive” way the sliders worked sometimes when changing numerical level values (see comments in my first post). Might be faster to just use the Up/Down buttons like you already do with the T2. However for controlling the Drawbars, the sliders were reliable and worked quite well. Hope you find this Update and pics useful." Allan http://www.yamahapkowner.com/forum/index.php?topic=15125.0 [This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 08-26-2008).]
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#240869 - 08/26/08 09:17 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Originally posted by squeak_D: Ian, perhaps the reason you are often met with hostility from some members is because even though this is the "general arranger" forum..., Great analysis Squeak...perhaps Ensnoreyou should be visiting you for help? I don't bash other instruments, except perhaps in jest...read my posts...I do, however, value Yamaha above other manufacturers and will continue to do so as long as they make the best. Just be glad for me that I have found the Holy Grail...I'm sure you will someday...all the best of luck to you. Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#240872 - 08/26/08 09:30 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Ian.., I rest my case with your last post. That says it all about your ignorance. I've already seen the light my friend. You're a one brand junky, and that's fine.
However MANY of us out there are not dedicated to ONE brand, yet you act like an asshole to anyone who doesn't use Yamaha. I could care less what name is on the board. As long as it does what I need. It could say Yamaha (Which I do happen to own.. Motif ES-6..,which also happens to make your S-900 look like a cheap Casio in terms of synth power, and song creation, but I fear something like the ES is probably too indepth for ya), it could say Roland, Korg,... hell the darn thing cold even say AVON and I wouldn't care.. As long as it did what I needed.
People on this forum want to talk about all the makers Ian. You want to tote your Yamaha Hitler mentallity..., well last time I checked there was a dedicated Yamaha arranger forum for that. However.., here WE like to talk about them all, and you constantly making smart ass remarks, baiting other members, and acting like Yamaha is the only maker out there just IMO makes you look like an ass. You're even a jerk to people who DO own a Yamaha.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#240875 - 08/26/08 09:35 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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What in the hell is the matter with you people? DonM took the time to post a great photo of a new keyboard, one that 99.9 percent of you have never seen or heard. It only took a few posts to turn his initial post into another pissin' contest. How in the hell can you say you don't like a product you've never seen, heard, touched, etc..? Does everyone on this damned forum have an axe to grind? Instead of thanking DonM for posting a highly detailed photo, some individuals seem to think this is a great opportunity to write their names in the snow. I, for one, would like to thank Don for posting the photo, and DNJ for the link to the other forum. And, unlike the above posts, I'll withhold my judgement pertaining to the Tyros3 until I actually get to sit down and play one. They'll probably show up in this part of the world sometime in late October or November, at least that's what's in the rumor mill. Finally, I'm always amazed at the number of individuals that seem to believe they know more about designing arranger keyboards than the manufacturers. This isn't a brand specific thing, it pertains to all brands. There are about a dozen experts on this forum who should form a panel to determine the key size, key feel, overall weight, construction material, color, screen size, storage capacity, jack placement, and every other design feature that should be on an arranger keyboard. Then, when you have all agreed on that design, set up meetings with all the manufacturers, put your detailed, highly researched proposals on the board room tables and convince them that is what the general public wants. Who knows, you may soon see the keyboard of your dreams. It's not snowing here, and at my age you can't write your name in the snow without getting your shoes wet. Thanks again Don, Gary ------------------ Travlin' Easy
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#240878 - 08/26/08 09:49 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Originally posted by Ensnareyou: I get paid for actually making music using many brands of keyboards, synthesizers, arrangers, whatever brand I need to get the job done right.
Oh, I'm sorry, Ensnoreyou...I wasn't aware that you actually played something. Now, please, let's not keep hijacking Don's post...he was good enough to put up the great photo of Yamaha's latest and greatest. Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#240879 - 08/26/08 09:51 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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I call it as I see it Ian. Hey I'll be the first admit I too have been a JERK to some members over the years. My problem with you Ian is your attitude towards anything NOT related to Yamaha on this forum. You (trying to be snug about it) snub any and everything (and everyone) not using a Yamaha. You even down members here who own Yamaha. You talk to me like Yamaha is something I know nothing about, but due to your ignornace what you don't know is all the major Yamaha keyboards I've owned over the years. DX-7, SY series, EX Series, Motif, and several of the PSR's. I've also owned quite a few from Roland and Korg.
Gary with all do respect..., when have you NOT known this forum to fill up with the usual speculation prior to a keyboard release. EVERY SINGLE ARRANGER THAT COMES OUT.., gets drowned in speculation before its release. That's nothing new here.
Understand that some comments have good ground too. I think short throw sliders can be an issue-I don't need to play the T3 to know that.... People are always comlaining about size and weight so would it be crazy to suggest that Yamaha shave a few inches off as they don't need all that space to the right that they've kept from the original Tyros as that space originally was for the floppy drive?
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#240881 - 08/26/08 10:00 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Nigel...., please take note (just from Ian's last response) on his ignorance in how he tries to bait other forum members with his smart ass remarks. Now he throws Fran's name into it.., when Fran wasn't even involved.
He can bait me all he want's but that's pretty messed up how he throws in another members name to try and get them worked up.
[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-26-2008).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#240882 - 08/26/08 10:09 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 05/26/99
Posts: 9673
Loc: Levittown, Pa, USA
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#240884 - 08/26/08 10:13 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Ian.., I'm quite calm my friend. I didn't take all those years of martial arts and not learn to keep my cool... I'm quite content. I just don't care for your attitude that's all. You often act very childish in the way you try to verbally bully others into confrontations here. If anyone needs to calm down I thinks its you, and you need to start showing a little more respect to others here.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#240891 - 08/26/08 10:34 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Fran, you're lucking I'm not in Levit. visiting the family! That DX-7 just might come up missing That unit is in great shape too. Fran I might be out there this fall. My mother wants me to go with her (I think in October) to visit the family. Might even get my wife and daughter to come. Oh Ian...., you may not take kindly to name calling, but those smart remarks of yours are just another way of name-calling. You just try to sugarcoat it, and if the word JERK offends you and you're so sensitive to that tiny little word..., then my friend all I can say to that is do a few push ups man and toughen up a bit. There are much harsher words than that! Now I did call you an a-hole and if that hurt your feelings than I apologize, but at the moment it just seemed appropriate. [This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-26-2008).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#240899 - 08/26/08 12:34 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Member
Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
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Originally posted by Diki: I thought it was amusing to hear Ensnoreyou (our resident Wersi 'expert') describe Ian as a 'whore' for evangelizing Yamaha while actually being in their pay. So what do you call someone that whores for a company and gets NO pay for it..?
Oh, yes... a SLUT
It's also amusing to consider what the chances of Ensnoreyou becoming silent about Wersi, were he actually to get a demoist position with the company. Slim, and none would be my guess...
But it's always more fun to dish it out than think for a second about what WE would do in the other's shoes. I am still waiting for him to make that 1600 mile trip to come and play MY G70 (that sounds MUCH better than any posted demo)... Diki, You'd be seriously wrong in your conjecture. Even if Wersi were to hire me as a clinician I'd speak my mind about any flaws the product had and I'd never be stuck commenting on only one brand as if it were a panacea. If the company felt they didn't want my honest opinion in the first place, then I'd not work for them. Unlike Ian who is paid by Yamaha and only praises them, I could never take that stance. Ian's opinions are as biased as they come and his bias is heavily swayed by the fact he's being compensated by Yamaha, make no bones about that. Would you give much weight to a keyboard review if you knew the company paid the reviewer to only speak praise of their instrument? I'll bet not. Contrary to what you state I don't whore myself out for Wersi or any other company for that matter. I also don't consider myself a Wersi expert and I'm sure "Abacus aka Bill" would be a much better person to call an expert. I merely state my opinions based upon actually using a product (Wersi included), not hearing it online and professing to be an expert on it. Too many people in this forum seem to review products although they have never actually laid a hand on the product. I'm not sure how that's even possible but for some playing the instrument isn't important. I appreciate your offer but I don't need to make a 1600 mile trek to see a G70 in person, I have played with a G70 several times at both trade shows and at local music stores. Yes it does sound better in person if that matters, most instruments usually do. I already have several Roland rack modules (XV5080's, JD990's, etc) using numerous SRX expansion cards that offer me more variations in sound than the G70 can so buying one wasn't an option for me. The G70 is built in usual Roland tank like fashion which I really appreciate and I am a fan of Roland's sound and always have been. I don't much care for Roland's lower end lines because they use cheaper AD/DA's that muck up the sound but their professional products are first rate. The G70 is definitely a pro product.
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#240900 - 08/26/08 12:59 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14322
Loc: NW Florida
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Sorry, Ensnareyou, but I have NEVER seen you criticize the Abacus in any form whatsoever. And, to be fair, every now and again (I know it's seldom, but he HAS done it) Ian will post about aspects of the PSR's and Tyros's that could use improvement. So much for the 'whore'. Where is YOUR objectivity, that you so demand from others? Let's face it, were it the perfect keyboard, one would expect at least SOME music to have been recorded on it by yourself, by now.... Usually, when demoing an arranger for the first time (with a drive that far, it would have to be the last time, too ) you have little time to do anything than call up the presets, call up the factory styles, and listen to what it sounds like. Ergo, a recording of someone else doing basically the same thing should be an adequate substitute for that first impression. Tactile stuff is secondary, at least for me, to the basic SOUND of the keyboard. And, having ripped and encoded thousands of CD's into MP3's over the years, I consider myself intimately aware of what the encoding process has done to the initial sound of just about anything. This puts me in a position to extrapolate what the REAL sound of an arranger is, even from an MP3. And I NEVER use the built in speakers for anything, far preferring my HR824's for home, and my JBL SRX rig for gigs. So, tell me once again, what is the point of driving that kind of distance again? To listen to those out of date styles and sounds in person? Or to contribute to Exxon's disgusting profit margin? I already use most of the VSTi's that would go in the Wersi in the studio, and have already decided long ago that in a live situation, the difference is not enough to warrant the expense and difficulty, not to mention latency issues. And lastly, I tend to discount the opinion of anyone that can't bring themselves to offer ANY criticism of a keyboard, when employed by the company, and ESPECIALLY when they are not. As, I imagine from your remarks, you do yourself. It hurts, to find yourself in the company of those you deride, doesn't it?
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#240901 - 08/26/08 01:21 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Member
Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
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Diki,
I'm not being paid to promote an instrument or specific manufacturer nor is it my job to convince you to buy a specific brand. Also, there's a huge difference between me being "objective" and someone like Ian who can't be objective because he's on Yamaha's payroll.
I use and play my Wersi and other instruments but not as often as I'd like. Medical reasons have diminished my motor skills over the years so playing daily is no longer an option for me.
I wasn't aware I've never said anything negative about the Wersi but I can assure you if that's the case then its been because I haven't had reason to. Are there things I'd like to see on the Wersi that aren't there? Sure! But I'm being unrealistic as the things I'd want few if any people would ever use i.e. 6 upper parts, 4 lower parts, 4 bass parts, and at least 12 stereo FX that could be used at once. I like to do large textural compositions and having that many parts at once would allow me to play in real time with no tracking needed. The other thing I'd like to see is an audio expansion card that gives me at least 48 audio outputs so I could mix my music directly from the Wersi on my large format mixing console. A card that allowed multiple FX sends and returns (at least 12 stereo) so I could use my high end outboard gear in conjunction with the Wersi FX would be fantastic. Is this realistic? Hell no! I'd probably be one of only a handful that would want or use those features let alone be willing to pay for them. In this forum people cry over spending $1500 on a plastic arranger and there aren't many who'd spend $3K let alone $10K on an arranger/workstation. Abacus, I, and a few select others don't run with the masses but what we've purchased certainly allows us to do things other arrangers can't.
The Wersi does offer more than any other arranger or workstation I've owned or used, bar none. Of course you don't know that because without seeing one in person you can't understand all the possibilities it offers or its true sound.
If I were given a choice to use a laptop running numerous VST's or a Wersi, I'd take the Wersi every time. The manner in which Wersi has integrated the software and hardware is what sets the instrument apart. Lionstracs is catching up and once they increase the factory sound library on the Mediastation, it will be a serious contender for the Wersi. Until that happens I'll stick with the Wersi.
[This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 08-26-2008).]
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#240910 - 08/26/08 05:46 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14322
Loc: NW Florida
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Originally posted by Ensnareyou:
The Wersi does offer more than any other arranger or workstation I've owned or used, bar none. Of course you don't know that because without seeing one in person you can't understand all the possibilities it offers or its true sound. Actually, no, I don't know it because none of you ever post anything that you've done. Bill keeps posting a hodgepodge of stuff that sounds great, but no explanation on how it's made (I can do the same stuff at the studio on the VSTi's without ponying $10k+, and need little of it live), or stuff that sounds SO BAD, it beggars the mind that it was done on the same instrument. Hence the confusion. And, I'm sorry, but without more in the way of example, and more objectivity about design limitations (let's face it, if it WERE the perfect arranger, would you even HAVE all that other stuff listed on your Myspace page?), I can't honestly put any more stock in want you say than I can Ian... In fact less, because he HAS been critical at times, and he has sent me some examples of him on his S900, I am prepared to accept some of the things he says. He backs up his claim of objectivity... But, here's the rub. You still fail to look at the situation from any other perspective than your own (something you apparently abhor in Ian). You say you HAVE played a G70, and have made up your mind based on that. But put the shoe on the other foot... First of all, let's assume that you couldn't find a G70 within a thousand miles. And then, let's assume that you heard some simple style ONLY demos (no real playing to get in the way). Now, let's assume they sounded TERRIBLE. Time after time, after time. And only the odd decent thing, and it never came with info on whether it was done on a stock G70, or a G70 controlling a laptop or computer VSTi (which it sounds like). Would you be willing to drive 1600 miles to come and play it, even if I (and anyone else, from here) were unwilling to post anything to convince you otherwise, only to INSIST that it cannot be judged the same way we judge everything else? You HAVE to come here, or you have no right to say that those demos were terrible, leading one to reasonably infer that the G70 IS terrible. I'm sorry, but I honestly don't think so... I have read all the literature, I am reasonably up on what the Wersi's capabilities are. I can read a manual as good as most, and better than some! And I am intimate with what can, and can't be done on a computer based VSTi host. But what I can't seem to get around is just how poor a LOT of the demos for the Wersi are. Forget about just how dated the styles are, or the playing, but just the SOUND and stiffness of the styles... Either someone is deliberately muddying up the water by posting the worst stuff he can find, or some explanation of this is due, before it is reasonable to ask anyone to just blithely take you on your word, and ignore the evidence in our ears... Anyway, like I said, were you in the IDENTICAL position that the rest of us find ourselves, I believe you would be much closer to our position. I know it's not your job to sell me on the Wersi. But it's also not your job to tell me I'm wrong to judge lousy demos on their face value if you can't prove otherwise. You would expect me to back up my words if they were totally contrary to your experience (listening IS an experience) and I was so adamant that it was YOU that knew nothing. What about your Myspace music? What of that was done on the Wersi? Surely SOMETHING? I liked it very much, BTW. Had a great eighties vibe... Back to the Wersi.... Why not a generic PCI Lightpipe card for it? It's computer based. Plenty of cards with 24 or more digital outputs for breakout purposes. A $10k+ keyboard should offer this, one would have thought...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#240914 - 08/26/08 09:15 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 09/21/00
Posts: 43703
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More from the YPKO forum.....
"I agree with your comments re Updates above. This is the sensible approach that virtually all manufacturers take...doesn't matter what the product is.. Yamaha is building incrementally on the technology they developed for T1 and T2.....adding new features/capabilites as the technology improves/evolves. The Operating system and User Interface is remaining quite consistent and familiar...just extensions for the new capabilities. That makes sense..you don't want your customers to have to completely relearn a new User Interface with every product. That is the Challenge...to retain a consistent,intuitive user interface while adding new underlying technology/hardware /software. Sometimes the new technology is so radically different that the complete architecture of the OS might have to change(rewrite required) and the User Interface may have to change as well. This often results in the New Generation products being incompatible with the previous ones.
I am happy that with the T3, Yamaha has been able to add new technology SA2 (new sound engine), improved DSP and other new features while retaining the Same basic User Interface.
Most importantly, the Production Model T3 which I played never once froze or hung up unlike many other newly introduced computer products. While much more real world experience is needed to tell for sure, this augurs well for the Reliability of the T3.
By the way I've used the Korg PA800 arranger ( latest generation) quite a bit and in my humble opinion...Out of the Box , the Sounds and Preset capabilities of the T3 ( and even the T2) are far better. The T3 sounds are so much more Lively, Bright , Dynamic and the numerous styles are so immediately usable....with the PA800 a lot of tweaking/customizing has to be done to make many of the Sounds/Styles approach what you get out of the Box with the T3. Mind you, the Korg PA800 is a good arranger with nice capabilities for Pros/Live playing( Dual Sequencers, Sampling, change key/tempo of Mp3 files, Guitar mode for Style Creation, etc) but it takes a lot of tweaking to get exactly what you want. I am blown away by how good T3 (and even T2) sounds out of the Box. Much better User Group/Forum support as well. Just my two cents."
Allan
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#240917 - 08/27/08 05:52 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Yamaha's approach to "upgrade" isn't through new features added to the OS when it comes to their top arrangers. It has been clear over the years that their concept of upgrading in terms of OS is by purchasing the new model. If they gave you all those OS updates and feature additions who would buy the newest model.
It sucks that they're this way because they sure as hell don't do this for their pro synths (at least over the more recent years). Roland released the G.., then Yamaha releases an OS update to ADD features to the XS that compare to the Fantom G. Yamaha knows the uproar they'd get from customers in the pro synth area if they did the same thing to them as they do with the pro arranger owners.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#240927 - 08/27/08 05:10 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Member
Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
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Originally posted by Diki: Still amused to hear Ensnare berate Ian for not being critical of Yamaha, but when asked to come up with things that could work better on Wersi's, he can't find any (extra hardware don't count... Many of us would be happy with lots of physical outputs and insert points, but it's hardly an OS thing, or sounds and styles, is it?)...
So Ian's Yamaha is perfect for HIM, but he's a 'whore'. Lee's Wersi is perfect for him, but that is just a FACT? Uncritical analysis is only bad if it's someone ELSE doing it?
That mote in Ian's eye looks smaller every day... Diki, I'm not berating Ian I'm stating a fact. Don't you get that Ian IS paid to only praise Yamaha? If I were paid to do the same thing I'd classify myself as a whore for whatever company I was touting as well. The fact Ian spews praise for Yamaha at every turn should mean something to you if you were interested in buying a Yamaha product. An unbiased opinion from any party who isn't in the hip pocket of a company should mean a lot more to you than a biased one who is. I'm merely pointing out a fact, IAN IS PAID to promote YAMAHA products and is so biased towards Yamaha because of his employer/employee relationship that it clouds his judgment. I can assure you I don't get paid by anyone to review any product and my opinions are my own and not swayed by others or by a paycheck. Be it Wersi, Roland, Korg, Casio, I actually play the instruments in person (what a concept), then I can make an informed decision on what it can and can't do. Sure one can surmise some things from specifications, a photo, or an MP3 but that's only part of the picture and I know that. This is why I hold out my final judgment until I play the instrument in person. I think it's funny how here on this forum my opinion means little yet I have clients all over the World who have admired me for not selling myself short by promoting a product simply because I was paid to do so. I have sold high end pro audio gear and done consulting for many well known artists, producers, and engineers and they always knew that if a question was asked of me I'd give my opinion based upon actual use and comparison between other brands and models, not by venturing a guess. Clearly my opinion isn't valued by you and that's OK. If one person here values my opinion then I guess me taking the time to voice my opinion was worthwhile. Even though I think your way off base many times by posting an opinion not based by actually playing the instrument in person (Wersi, Lionstracs, etc.), I value your opinions when they are based on actual use (such as those of the G70 which I already said is a wonderful instrument). Your opinions that aren't based from real world use I simply have to shrug off. In some instances such as questioning why Yamaha put tiny sliders and increment/decrement buttons on an arranger that's a valid question even though you haven't played the product. Sometimes you don't have to play the instrument to question why they would do that. [This message has been edited by Ensnareyou (edited 08-27-2008).]
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#240929 - 08/27/08 08:08 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Ian, With all do respect I find it very hard to swallow that your opinions of Yamaha's keyboards insn't somewhat biased due to being paid by them, and I wouldn't doubt that you get some other perks as well.
I can't help but wonder if you had the same set up from Roland or Korg.., would you then be praising them just as much....
Obviously your opinions related to Yamaha keyboards are heavily biased. Be realistic now..., would Yamaha want to keep paying you or giving you extra perks if you weren't always singing praise to them....
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#240930 - 08/27/08 10:12 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14322
Loc: NW Florida
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Lee.... Trust me, Yamaha do not pay ANYONE to come here and natter with us old farts... Ian gets paid to do the odd clinic and teach some arranger lessons, etc.. He isn't what anyone would consider a full-time web shill. And, once again (because you apparently missed it), I repeat, Ian HAS been critical of some aspects of Yamaha's, and you have NOT been in the slightest critical of Wersi. Ignore it again, it's not going to go away... Where is this reputed objectivity of yours? You are honestly trying to tell us that there is not the slightest aspect of Wersi's operation that could be improved, there is not a single feature on any other arranger that it could do with, and there is no aspect of panel layout, OS, sounds and styles that could use improvement? The rest of us don't seem to have the slightest problem finding a problem with some of the sounds and styles, just for starters. And give me ten minutes on it, I GUARANTEE I can find something that could be bettered! I have a whole forum full of things posted (at Roland-arranger.com) that I think could be improved on the G70, and, as you said, it is a VERY good arranger! So, c'mon, SHOW us this independence you claim. In fact, step up to the plate and at least equal Ian's objectivity... If the 'whore' can fault his pimp, surely you've got SOMETHING about your girlfriend that could be nicer? [This message has been edited by Diki (edited 08-27-2008).]
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#240933 - 08/28/08 04:55 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Originally posted by squeak_D: Ian, With all do respect I find it very hard to swallow that your opinions of Yamaha's keyboards insn't somewhat biased due to being paid by them, and I wouldn't doubt that you get some other perks as well.
Squeak, I'm not saying this applies to you, but sometimes it's hard to believe someone is telling the truth if you would have lied in the same, or a similar situation. If it does apply to you, then you have my utmost sympathy. Questioning my integrity leads me to believe that perhaps you doubt your own...you know the saying..."you point the finger, and you have three pointing back." I have been fortunate enough to support myself with my music most of my life...but, the money was never, and I mean, NEVER, the first priority...doing what I loved was more important. It still is.... Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#240934 - 08/28/08 05:21 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Oh please..., there's no logic to someone's opinions possibly being biased on a product (whos maker) just also happens to pay that individual.
I'm well aware of the large group of supporters who DON'T GET paid, but to say one's position couldn't possibly be biased based on compenstation from said company in itself is just "illogical".
I remember a time on this forum when we brought up the topic of store owners reviews and opinions "possibly" being biased.., and I remember time when we talked about actual full time reps posting and their opinions being biased. So how illogical is it to think that someone who is a daily poster here who happens to be compensated by the company he's rejoicing about couldn't possibly be slightly biased in his opinions.... That's not illogical...., that in itself is common sense.
I think it's great Ian loves his Yamaha. There's nothing wrong with it. Some people are a one brand player and there's nothing wrong with that either, but you can't fault a person who throws caution based on a members opinion who is also known to be compensated by the company.
[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-28-2008).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#240935 - 08/28/08 06:23 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 07/27/05
Posts: 10606
Loc: Cape Breton Island, Canada
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Originally posted by squeak_D: Oh please..., there's no logic to someone's opinions possibly being biased on a product (whos maker) just also happens to pay that individual.
Oh yes there is...it's just something that you are unable to grasp. My opinions are biased because the product meets my needs. Again, Yamaha is not perfect, but it is the best, in my opinion...and, I would say that whether or not I worked for them...in fact, as I said earlier, that's why I do work for them. It's good to stick with the winners, don't you agree? Now, back to the S900...the day is still young, and I have some practicing to do. Ian
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros4, Yamaha MS-60S Powered Monitors(2), Yamaha CS-01, Yamaha TQ-5, Yamaha PSR-S775.
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#240936 - 08/28/08 06:33 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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I most certainly can grasp it Ian... I've worked in business long enough to grasp that concept. If you truely adore them as you say then that's great, but for pete's sake you can't snub someone for suggesting bias based on the reviewers position with the company itself.
It someone on this forum was going on every day about the Roland G-70 or Korg PA series, or the Wersi (who happened to be compensated by that company).., they too would be met with the same response from other members as you have. Now that's REALISTIC.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#240938 - 08/28/08 07:02 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Ian...., I never said I didn't believe you. You're not biased..., that's fine and dandy, but from reading and participating in this forum for nearly 9 years now I've seen A LOT of biased opinions.., and many of the vets here can say that as well. If you're not biased than good for you. You're a di-hard Yammie fan, and there's nothing wrong with that man.., but you can't get upset when I or others who have been on this forum for a long time (at times) may take some reviewers opinions with a grain of salt when one has to consider the reviewers position with the company itself. It's not to say your opinion doesn't count or doesn't matter..., but you have be realistic.
If I worked for Roland and was constantly promoting their keyboards here, and often snubbing other makers and those who play those models.., is it illogical to think that my position might be slightly biased? Also..., I've read your posts on things you dislike about Yamaha, but it's obvious in those posts you have shown some reservation in how you addressed those personal issues, but that's not to fault you as you have to be careful about how you express your negative views about the product if you're being compensated by the company.
My problem which has been brought up many times on this forum is how some members constantly try to make this a PRO YAMAHA forum when it's the general arranger forum. I remember a time Ian..., (before you were even a member here) when if a member said anything negative about Yamaha boy did they get a verbal lashing for it. So it does bother me to see history repeating itself here when there are many members who don't own Yamaha. I've been quite vocal over the years about my discontent about some of the things with Yamaha keyboards, and geez have I gotten hate mail for that. There was a time that just because I also like Roland..., myself, Fran, and couple others were suddenly the trouble makers.... It's just nuts really.
[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-28-2008).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#240939 - 08/28/08 11:44 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14322
Loc: NW Florida
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First things first... I believe there's a HUGE difference between a manufacturer's DEALER coming here to promote a product (or the manufacturer himself, as in Dom's case), who will personally gain from doing the said promotion, and someone who's position in the industry is tangential at best (no offense, Ian!) who will not profit from his words... Ian is a part time clinician for Yamaha in an obscure part of Nova Scotia (no offense again!). This is hardly what you think Yamaha WOULD send here to shill for them, were they the slightest bit interested in subverting our opinions (for all the good it's done!). I'm sorry squeak, but you know that Ian and I often have very different views about things Yamaha, but the one thing I am utterly convinced about is that his views and opinions about Yamaha have absolutely nothing to do with his occasional employment by a branch of the company up in Canada He is no more, and no less than simply another of the interminable 'fans' that populate this forum, one of those that rarely see past the plusses of their choice of arranger, don't like to discuss it's negatives, and prefer to dwell on the negatives of other arrangers to keep the topic away from any discussion of it's own negatives. I, at least, am utterly convinced that were he to lose his employment with Yamaha, his opinion about them wouldn't change in the slightest. Let's face it, how many of us could say that? Be honest. In the meantime, guys like zuki evangelize other brands just as rabidly without any connection to the company. Given a choice between looking at the facts and deciding that either Ian is, or is NOT a shill for Yamaha, why not look at the company he keeps, and simply give him the benefit of the doubt. Once again, I say, if he were the ONLY one acting this way, you might be in a position to say without much doubt that his employment was the main factor. But given that, to be honest, quite a large percentage of the membership has little objectivity about their choice of manufacturer, Occam's Razor decides to simply place him in with all the other zealots merely voicing their personal opinion. Why make it more complicated than it needs to be? It's not like he's George or Frank, actually marketing any of Yamaha's products.
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#240941 - 08/28/08 01:01 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Well we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one I guess. I've already stated that I know Ian has stated his opinions are not biased and so forth, but is it a sin to either ask or request clarification from the person knowing they're also paid by the product maker?
However, I still stand in my position that it's not at all uncommon for a person to throw caution when he/she reads reviews and the reviewer is on the product makers payroll.
Like I said..., it's great Ian is so thrilled with Yamaha..., however his so called "tongue and cheek" comments and the real intention behind those particular comments are still debatable IMO.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#240942 - 08/28/08 09:03 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Damned Diki, you hit the nail on the head with that last post. Either you're startin' to mellow out, or maybe I am, but I agree with every point you just made. Hmmm! Maybe I'm playing it safe for when I drive through Florida next spring--don't want to get shot at while cruising down I-95. I've never looked at Ian as a company man. Sure, he gets a few bucks for demoing the keyboards, but I'm quite confident that it's a labor of love and nothing more. I had offers like that down this way a year or two ago, but had to turn them down because of a hectic schedule, plus it didn't pay very much when you considered the amount of time involved. They didn't want me because I'm a great player, because I'm NOT! They wanted me because of my knowledge of the Yamaha OS and how to interface their keyboards with other pieces of equipment. Yep Squeak--I'm a Yamaha guy too, but I've owned lots of other brands as well. They all have a vast array of great features, and they all have a number of weaknesses. For now, I'll stick with the Yamaha brand for several reasons, the least of which is that it is the most comfortable OS for what I'm doing. Good luck, Gary ------------------ Travlin' Easy
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#240943 - 08/29/08 12:06 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 14322
Loc: NW Florida
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Originally posted by squeak_D: is it a sin to either ask or request clarification from the person knowing they're also paid by the product maker? No, it's no sin, but once the person DOES clarify his position, you are somewhat in the position of calling him a liar (first a whore, now a liar where's the love? ) if you don't take him at his word. And, if you won't take a fellow member at his word, why ask for clarification in the first place? If you've already made up your mind, why discuss it at all..? I think you know me, at least from my posts. I don't take bull lying down After a testy start, Ian and I have grown to at least tolerate, and sometimes even appreciate each other in some ways. We've corresponded privately, he's heard some of my music, I've heard some of his (you know, the thing so many here are scared sh*tless about!) and from talking to him, I get the distinct impression he cares for his arranger regardless of whether he's employed by them or not. Now, if he can persuade me (the eternal sceptic ), maybe you could give him the benefit of the doubt? Personally, I don't care if anyone is employed by a company or not. A complete lack of objectivity is a pain whether influenced or NOT, IMO...
_________________________
An arranger is just a tool. What matters is what you build with it..!
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#240944 - 08/29/08 12:29 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
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Originally posted by Ensnareyou: Ian,
Why is it that every keyboard "Yamaha" makes is great in your world? I wonder if the fact you work for Yamaha has anything to do with it? Your credibility is weak because of your failure to show any type of objectivity towards Yamaha products. This isn't Candyland and everything Yamaha makes is not "perfect", far from it! It seems you live in a world with blinders on when it comes to Yamaha products.
So the Tyros 3 has 9 tiny sliders, BFD. It looks nearly identical to the Tyros 2 with the addition of some sliders and a few button changes. I almost forgot, they smoothed the corners of the case out, how impressive! I see no groundbreaking technology within the T3, its styling, or sound demo's so what's so impressive? If the Tyros 3 was made by Roland, Korg, Ketron, Wersi, or even Casio I'll bet you wouldn't be impressed at all. Without the big "Y" on the front its simply not worth touting in Ian Land.
Perhaps instead of "Ian the Excited" it should be "Ian the Yamaha whore"? What you are doing is certainly pandering. I've sold high end pro audio gear and at least when my clients asked me about products I let them know the pitfalls and the positives of each product and I didn't try to hawk anything just to sell a particular brand or product. To stand up on a soapbox and proclaim everything Yamaha makes caters to everyone is simply ridiculous and shows a complete lack of integrity on your part. I think Thats an unfair conclusion. I sell Yamaha keyboards and can buy them at cost and chose the Korg Pa2x. I always and still believe Yamaha has the best acoustic voices and a more polished song/style sound. I ended up chosing the Korg because it had more features as a work station and the 76 keys, I was never enamored with the sounds compared to Yamaha but did like the styles.however aftermarket styles for the Yamaha are far more plentiful and support is amazing as well. But after a few months and a lot of manual digging, I decided for me in the end it was all about the sounds and since I use it for recording the polished sound helps in the mastering process. The Korg is deep and full of features and has a nice live sound. I await the T3. The T3 may give us the guitar sequencer Im sure to miss. We have a couple of very heavy Roland RDs so having 61 keys is not an issue just a minor inconvenience when performing out until a very light Casio Privia solved that issue. The Yamaha is simpler to learn and use as well for me. I mess with it at the store everyday. I was buried in the Korg manual more than the creation of music. I really wanted to love the PA2x. But even after being given some major guidance on it at NAMM in Nashville in the end its about the sounds, And Yamaha knows how to sample their own instruments and is the only company that even makes pianos and most the acoustic instruments they sample. It's entirely fair to pump up what one sells and credibility does not suffer when one believes in a product enough to be SUCCESSFUL selling it. Who can sell something they do not like themselves? I told my customers I bought a Korg and why. But I also told them with the sounds I used the most I preferred Yamaha. As far as a workstation the Korg wins hands down. I have high hopes for the T 3, I don't think I will be disappointed. While I wait I'm borrowing a PSR900 from the store. Since we have since become Korg dealers I may even pick up a PA800 to go along with the Tyros 3 to fill in some of the holes for live use, if there are any. IF the gap from the T2 to the t3 is akin to the gap between the 3000 and 900 I am sure I won't be dissapointed.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4 Yamaha Motif XS8 Roland RD700 Casio PX-330 Martin DC Aura Breedlove ATlas Solo Bose MOD II PA
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#240945 - 08/29/08 01:18 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Member
Registered: 03/31/02
Posts: 491
Loc: California
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I've often read from many users on this forum that Yamaha arrangers have "polished sounds", "CD quality", are "great for the studio" and sound "real", but I'll have to respectfully disagree. Having been a recording engineer for over 25 years I can honestly say that with the exception of a few of the Yamaha SA sounds and some of their synthesizer sounds, I have never heard a sound from a Yamaha arranger keyboard that sounds so real I'd ever mistake it for the actual real instrument. I've recorded numerous Yamaha grand pianos, Steinways, Bosendorfers and there is not a chance in hell that the Grand Piano sound on the Tyros 2 or what I've heard on the Tyros 3 demo holds a candle to the pianos I've recorded.
I've also been fortunate enough to record some amazing vintage Martin, Fender, and Les Paul guitars and while good, no SA or Megavoice is even remotely comparable.
Perhaps my standards are too high but for me real means it sounds real. The drums alone on Yamaha arrangers are pathetic, wimpy, lack punch or presence, and are and Achilles heel in my personal opinion. My AKAI sampler from the 1980's easily rivals the drum sounds on the Tyros 2 and somehow I doubt the Tyros 3 drums will be much of an improvement. It's a sad day when over the past 25 years Yamaha still can't sample better drum sounds than I have on my old AKAI sampler. Sad, very sad.
I've owned and used many Yamaha products and while I find many to be an excellent value at their respective price point, Yamaha's TOTL arrangers are not one of those products I feel represents the value you pay for them. For $4K I except a lot and I expect the product to be as good or better than anything else it competes with. Yamaha's build quality alone bears little in common with the likes of the PA2X, G70, Ketron SD1+, and other similar TOTL arrangers. I realize many people on here could care less if their $4K keyboard is made of plastic and has cheap buttons, but I do care. I want to know that the instrument I purchase is going to stand up to everyday professional use and isn't going to be outdated in a couple of years simply because the manufacturer decides software updates are no longer a priority for them.
One of the primary reasons I did buy a Wersi was because Wersi continually updates their instruments rather than orphans them. If you bought a Wersi back in 2000 you could update it to the same specifications as the one made in 2008. Can the same be said for any other arranger?
Perhaps one day Yamaha, Roland, and Korg will venture out and start making arrangers that are more future proof but they still haven't jumped on the band wagon. Korg and Roland are at least trying by offering updates to their instruments that actually ad new features, not just fixing bugs. I've yet to see Yamaha ever offer an update on their arrangers that has added new features and sounds and vastly improved the instrument. If I'm mistaken in that respect by all means feel free to clarify that for me. What Yamaha arranger product has had new sounds and features added via software or firmware that significantly improved the instrument?
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#240947 - 08/29/08 02:59 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 03/24/08
Posts: 1099
Loc: Myrtle beach SC
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Originally posted by Ensnareyou: I've often read from many users on this forum that Yamaha arrangers have "polished sounds", "CD quality", are "great for the studio" and sound "real", but I'll have to respectfully disagree. Having been a recording engineer for over 25 years I can honestly say that with the exception of a few of the Yamaha SA sounds and some of their synthesizer sounds, I have never heard a sound from a Yamaha arranger keyboard that sounds so real I'd ever mistake it for the actual real instrument. I've recorded numerous Yamaha grand pianos, Steinways, Bosendorfers and there is not a chance in hell that the Grand Piano sound on the Tyros 2 or what I've heard on the Tyros 3 demo holds a candle to the pianos I've recorded.
I've also been fortunate enough to record some amazing vintage Martin, Fender, and Les Paul guitars and while good, no SA or Megavoice is even remotely comparable.
Perhaps my standards are too high but for me real means it sounds real. The drums alone on Yamaha arrangers are pathetic, wimpy, lack punch or presence, and are and Achilles heel in my personal opinion. My AKAI sampler from the 1980's easily rivals the drum sounds on the Tyros 2 and somehow I doubt the Tyros 3 drums will be much of an improvement. It's a sad day when over the past 25 years Yamaha still can't sample better drum sounds than I have on my old AKAI sampler. Sad, very sad.
I've owned and used many Yamaha products and while I find many to be an excellent value at their respective price point, Yamaha's TOTL arrangers are not one of those products I feel represents the value you pay for them. For $4K I except a lot and I expect the product to be as good or better than anything else it competes with. Yamaha's build quality alone bears little in common with the likes of the PA2X, G70, Ketron SD1+, and other similar TOTL arrangers. I realize many people on here could care less if their $4K keyboard is made of plastic and has cheap buttons, but I do care. I want to know that the instrument I purchase is going to stand up to everyday professional use and isn't going to be outdated in a couple of years simply because the manufacturer decides software updates are no longer a priority for them.
One of the primary reasons I did buy a Wersi was because Wersi continually updates their instruments rather than orphans them. If you bought a Wersi back in 2000 you could update it to the same specifications as the one made in 2008. Can the same be said for any other arranger?
Perhaps one day Yamaha, Roland, and Korg will venture out and start making arrangers that are more future proof but they still haven't jumped on the band wagon. Korg and Roland are at least trying by offering updates to their instruments that actually ad new features, not just fixing bugs. I've yet to see Yamaha ever offer an update on their arrangers that has added new features and sounds and vastly improved the instrument. If I'm mistaken in that respect by all means feel free to clarify that for me. What Yamaha arranger product has had new sounds and features added via software or firmware that significantly improved the instrument? You want to see cheap buttons have a look at the Korg. The sliders are abysmal and the buttons on my Triton were always issue laden. The Tyros has massive buttons that are lit up in comparison. If a keyboard is good out of the box it does not need constant firmware upgrades. I am one of those rare people that does not upgrade firmware unless it solves a problem I am having or need I want. I have seen firmware upgrades create more issues than they solve. Frankly I am not sure how much more Yamaha can do to improve their sounds except more of the same. No keyboard is the end all. But the Yamaha makes a great foundation whist the Korg makes a great addition to the mix. Just like the old U220 and Proteus One complimented each other with little overlap in their day. The Wersis' and Ketrons may be all that but I won't buy a keyboard that is not readily supported technically on a local basis as the more mainstream products at least here in the US. I play back midi files and the regular Joes and Jones cannot believe they are not listening to a CD audio file. That's our audience, listeners, and purchasers. Thats who Korg, Yamaha, and Roland is marketing to.
_________________________
Yamaha Tyros 4 Yamaha Motif XS8 Roland RD700 Casio PX-330 Martin DC Aura Breedlove ATlas Solo Bose MOD II PA
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#240948 - 08/29/08 03:07 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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For one thing..., firmware upgrades aren't just to fix known bugs. When will Yamaha catch on to the concept of adding new features via an OS update..? The other's do it, but Yamaha's greedy mentallity is simply "you want an upgrade buy the new model". I like Yamaha arrangers, but I hate that they aren't adding new features to OS upgrades, and the actual upgrade will be more than $3,000!
[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-29-2008).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#240949 - 08/29/08 03:45 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Actually Squeak, they did make some dramatic changes in their firmware upgrades for the PSR-3000, T1 and T2. However, you have to own the keyboard in order to know that and how they were used. Background colors changed, fonts were modified, and several other items were improved. Keep in mind that upgrades can only be accomplished within the primary operating system. Otherwise, the entire operating system would have to be changed, and NO MANUFACTURER is willing to do this without coming out with a new keyboard. Gary ------------------ Travlin' Easy
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#240951 - 08/29/08 04:36 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Sorry I don't consider background colors and modified fonts to be a great OS update. Korg and Roland have added more than pretty new colors and modified font as upgrades via the OS updates. I could care less about all the colors they give to make the screen look all pretty, and could care less about modified font. I'd rather have changes that relate to MAKING MUSIC.
[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-29-2008).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#240953 - 08/29/08 05:53 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Why in the hell do so many keep associating OS updates ONLY with BUG FIXES? OS updates aren't just for fixing bugs.... They're also used to add NEW features. Korg and Roland not only fix bugs, but IMPROVE their keyboards for owners with OS upgrades/updates that add NEW FEATURES to the unit. USEFUL FEATURES TOO... I hardly consider screen colors, and modified fonts useful features when compared to the added features seen in Korg and Roland updates.
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#240954 - 08/29/08 06:18 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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OK Squeak--I'll bite. Enlighten us on the complete OS change and updates that Korg and Roland provided and exactly what those updates and changes did to enhance the keyboard's sound, ease of operation, etc.. I'm really interested in hearing about the specifics, mainly because this could be very beneficial to the forum membership. Who knows, Roland might lighten up the G-70s ensuring versions so old farts such as myself could handle them. Cheers, Gary ------------------ Travlin' Easy
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#240955 - 08/29/08 06:36 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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Gary..., you seriously can't think of any OS updates that added new features to a Korg or Roland arranger..??? Does Roland's G-70 version 2 sound familiar? That update was rather impressive. Last time I checked didn't Korg add a very cool feature via an OS upgrade that was a feature to compete with a guitar related feature found on Roland's G-70? Do you really need me to point these and other things out to you...? Do you only follow posts related to Yamaha? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't OS update version 1.50 or 1.51 (or something like that) that added the Guitar Mode to PA-800 owners. Wasn't this the new feature on the top PA model.... Yet Korg didn't want to leave PA-800 owners drooling, and gave this feature via an OS update. That's a pretty darn useful upgrade feature IMO. I think it's safe to say that many PA-800 owners saw that as a freakin sweet OS upgrade feature. Last time I checked Korg is set to release a new OS update that's said to be huge: http://korgpa.com/pa_root/en/news/pa800_pa2x_v2.html I don't understand why Yamaha owners get so upset when someone mentions Yamaha's lack of OS upgrades to add new features (not screen colors and modified fonts). It would seem that the general population would think OS upgrades are to fix bugs only. The problem is there are some here who are too closed minded and seem to think that every time you see an OS update for a keyboard it means something's wrong and they keep having to fix it. Perhaps if Yamaha added OS updates that included new features in the way Korg does for example.., more Yamaha owners just might understand what an OS update is all about.., and that it's not because the system is choc-ful-of-bugs. [This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 08-29-2008).]
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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#240956 - 08/29/08 08:30 PM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 12/08/02
Posts: 15576
Loc: Forest Hill, MD USA
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Squeak, I'm not impressed by press releases or hype. I can get that kind of information from the manufacturer's internet sites. I am, however, impressed with technical aspects as to how these updates improved things. That's all I was asking for--something specific. Something that someone with hands-on experience could post that would tell forum members what actually took place and specifically what the updates did. No pissin' contest stuff, or as Joe Friday said "Just the facts!" I don't spend a lot of time at the Korg site since I sold mine many years ago. Same holds true since I sold the G-800. However, I do tend to read what is posted here, even when it pertains to other keyboard manufacturers. And, I've read most of the stuff about the upgrades. Some of it was impressive, but most of the posts were somewhat subjective. When someone says their guitar sounds better since the upgrade, I really would like to know why it sounded bad to begin with, and I also would really like to know how the upgrade improved that orriginal sound. None of that seemed to be in those posts. Maybe it's a deep, dark secret that the manufacturers don't want us to know about. Ain't it amazin' how the posting of a photo has gone this far off the beaten path. I'm outa' here--going sailing for the next three days if the weather cooperates. Seems like the logical thing to do. Cheers, Gary ------------------ Travlin' Easy
_________________________
PSR-S950, TC Helicon Harmony-M, Digitech VR, Samson Q7, Sennheiser E855, Custom Console, and lots of other silly stuff!
K+E=W (Knowledge Plus Experience = Wisdom.)
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#240960 - 09/01/08 05:48 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Member
Registered: 09/07/07
Posts: 96
Loc: UK
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The last free upgrade from Korg for my PA1X was this
Korg Pa1X OS Version 3.0 Released February 15, 2007
The Korg Pa1x arranging keyboard workstation series has gotten a fresh operating system version and with it a notable expansion of capabilities. Version 3.0 is for Korg's Pa1x, Pa1x Pro and Pa1x Elite. The upgrade also ships with a new set of piano sounds and 64 new styles. Here's the main upgrade feature list:
Support for long file names. You are no longer limited to the classic format 8.3, all capitals. Now names can be as long as you like, and mix upper and lower case characters. Names of files transferred via USB or CD from a personal computer will not be cut into shorter names, and will look exactly as the original Easier way to start recording Songs from any measure. Go on recording your Song. If you want to do second-pass recording, starting from a measure different than the first one, you are no longer asked to move to that measure using the Fast Forward command. Just choose the new starting measure with the Start Measure parameter, and go on recording from there Up to 16 oscillators per Sound. Create Sounds as sophisticated as you like. In the Pa1X, each oscillator is a different sound. You can either create very rich sounds, or add as many dynamic layers as you like, for the highest degree of nuance in a single sound Smarter pre-selection of Style Elements. You can now select a different Variation just before jumping to a different Style. The Variation you choose will overtake the one memorized in the Style Performance Faster SongBook operations. Huge SongBook files are now loaded and saved much quicker Ending 3. A new, shorter ending is included. For those of you who prefer to cut short in the end Revised user interface, with bigger buttons, bigger fonts and colored sliders Enhanced Lyrics and Select pages, for better readibility Revised Musical Resources, with various improvements and the new Ending 3 for Styles Smarter Solo Mode, to be activated with Shift + Touch Tempo Lock in Song Play mode, to quickly freeze Tempo and keep it the same in subsequent Songs Contextual Help now available also in Dutch and Russian languages
I can tell to that the upgrade was like having a new keyboard but i did not have to pay for it !!!
and it was major. The pianos were a major improvement, the sequencers was even more detailed and the ability to have asound composed of up to 16 elements blew my mind.
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#240963 - 09/01/08 09:25 AM
Re: Big ol T3 photo
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Senior Member
Registered: 10/08/00
Posts: 4715
Loc: West Virginia
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-------------------------------------------- The probably reason you sold your Pa2 was because you didn't spend enough time to learn this fully customizable keyboard. --------------------------------------------
That statement sums up a lot on this forum. People on this forum so often don't hold on to the board long enough to learn what it can do. They go from brand A to brand B.., piss and moan because brand B's OS is completey different from brand A (which they've been using for the last 10 years), and rather than learn the new OS.., they dump the board.., then come up with some BS reason as to why they dumped it rather than admit they couldn't grasp the operation-and didn't want to take the time to learn it.
I can't help but laugh at comments here about this sound sucks, it could be better if it did this.., blah blah blah, yet the majority don't even bother to tweek or edit the sound to their liking. I'm not talking about adjusting the DSP or EQ either. Tweeking a sound is much more than DSP and EQ adustment, but if those here who are so quick to dump and run actually explored the synth editing on their arrangers they'd realize the tools to make those sounds the way they like are already built into the keyboard. Adjusting ADSR and Filters can breathe new life into a dull sound.
I still say you Korg owners are sitting on a beast of a synth/arranger! You got an arranger keyboard with the synth editing power of a WS.., and Korgs OS updates are through the roof at times. I've got several friends who own WS's who also wanted an arranger, but one that had the power of a synth... (THEY ALL OWN ONE OF THE KORG PA MODELS), and love them!
_________________________
GEAR: Yamaha MOXF-6, Casio MZX-500, Roland Juno-Di, M-Audio Venom, Roland RS-70, Yamaha PSR S700, M-Audio Axiom Pro-61 (Midi Controller). SOFTWARE: Mixcraft-7, PowerTracks Pro Audio 2013, Beat Thang Virtual, Dimension Le.
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