Who knows..... do you?

Hi Donny

Having been in music retail for 30 years including owning a full line music store, they are from my experience saying there is a small amount of people who buy these products that would use 76 keys and that 61 keys fits the needs of the market they are going after. Space and weight may be considered, but not a real biggie I wouldn't think.

And, very possibly, they are concerned that if there is a 76 note Tyros that maybe they will loose sales of the very expensive Clavinova CVP series line.

I don't have a crystal ball or a direct line to Yamaha,but really what else could it be.

Scott I have no idea either BUT,.....I would love to be a fly on the wall in that original T3 design meeting

I don't think it's really "there's no need for one". Korg and Roland's 76's have done well. The need is there, but Yamaha (for reasons unknown) stopped after the 9000 Pro.

IMO.., Yamaha does any and everything they can to keep a very fine line between some of their keyboards. It would appear they don't want some of their models being any type of competition for another one of their models.., which is IMO why they so severely strip down some of the lower versions of particular keyboards.

I think a 76 Tyros would sell very well.., hell the case is already long enough for it. I think Yamaha is just comfortable where they are with the Tyros. They feel the fan base they currently have is doing fine I guess.

I will say that I honestly think it really boils down to a weight issue. Korg and Roland users are already used to the 76'ers and I've noticed that the issue of weight isn't brought up with them as much as it is with Yamaha arrangers. Perhaps.., Yamaha's not wanting to lose a large percentage of their customer base who are very vocal about keeping the weight down. I think that if the Tyros started as a 76'er and continued today as a 76'er.., well the fan base would already be used to the weight and would have accepted that by now.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 09-03-2008).]

I think this is the 76th thread on this topic in the last 6 months.

I think it is based more on what sells in Europe vs. what the USA market dictates.
My understanding is that 61 keys is widely acceptable in Europe. Its that cut & dry .

DITTO!

Gary

------------------
Travlin' Easy

I imagine Yamaha makes a huge profit margin on a 61 key board seeing the sheer numbers of them they sell. They probably do a huge production run and crank them out by the thousands which keeps their costs down. Why would they want to make a 76 note model that would just need a limited production run? How much more would that 76 nite board cost? How much more would you be willing to pay? I think they just stick with the tried and true! -charley

It's very simple....

Europeans have MORE fingers than Americans

What is Yamaha saying to us with a 61key T3 vs a 76 key one?

That they do not believe in the product.

If Yamaha is stating the sounds and styles of the T3 a superior to any other, then making the T3 with 76 keys would only help them to increase their sales.
As we all know, the persons who would or is going to buy the 61 key T3, would buy a 76 key T3 if that was their only option.


It is now common knowledge that a 76 key T3 can be built having the same weight as the 61 T3 (76 keys does not = heavy)..

I guess Yamaha likes to throw money away.

Yes, 61 keys is widely acceptable in the Home Hobbyist market segment, but for gigging professionals, 76 keys or better is the Axe of choice in Europe (and beyond).

Don't get me wrong. The T3 does have a few pro level features on it like two sets of MIDI I/O connections but you can find many keyboards with one MIDI I/O for the fraction of the T3's asking price of $4,000. It also has Step Recording which is a pro feature in my opinion, but the T3 will still lack pro level micro editing capability on it which will negate some of the effectiveness of using the Step Recording feature and/or the other features on the T3 that may require pro level micro editing.

Yes, the T3 will have a few PRO level features as well as some of the sounds that could be considered on a professional grade, but having only 61 keys is NOT one of them in my opinion. Unless, of course, you're mostly dedicated to playing just the Organs on the T3. Then again, the T3 doesn't have Waterfall keys unfortunately, even though Yamaha is specifically touting the T3's FSX keybed for "Organ" use. Oh well.. such is life in Yammie's arranger keyboard land I guess.

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 09-03-2008).]

With all the great editing software programs available ....who cares if step recording in onboard or not....you can anything on your pc & in many ways much easier. In this day & age of technology IMO they should put their money into what real users ARE ASKING FOR!

Donny.., PC's are fine and dandy, but since when did it become so cumbersome to edit this data within the keyboard itself? I'd like to know who in the higher powers that be decided that Step Recording is no longer needed onboard..., considering how many pros and non pros used it. There are many Motif XS owners that were pissed to see Yamaha dropped stepped recording on their top synth. They clearly did it to push the use of their software because EVERYTIME you mentioned it.., they just told you to use their software.

Features like STEP RECORDINS is something the REAL USERS are well.., USING. Step recording is used widely in techno, dance, and other styles of electronic. Most arranger players tend to stick to classic styles anyways though, but it's not uncommon for someone who has absolutely no skill in recording drums on the keys to use step recording to input this data. This is common on both arrangers and synths.

That's it in a nutshell, Scott.

Certainly would make sense to all but the most narrow of mind and short of sight.

Ian

FWIW ... the on board Step Recording in my technics kn6000 is a valuable tool that is easy to use ...

t.

If Yamaha made NO 76's or 88's, you'd have a point.

But, obviously, they DO realize there is a LARGE market for arrangers with this layout. However, their internal divisions have already got this covered, albeit with FAR inferior arrangers to the T2 and S900. But rather than shake up their little fiefdoms of internal market share, and actually give the customers what they have been screaming for for years now, they prefer to stick to their antediluvian product models, no matter HOW much the scene has changed.

Their internal politics has stripped them of an opportunity to deal a blow to their competition, and I am sure Roland and Korg and Ketron are very grateful that Yamaha is so inflexible...

Believe me, if Yamaha thought there was NO market for a 76 arranger, they wouldn't make DGX's. The trouble is, those are POS arrangers compared to an S900, yet alone a T2/3. It's not that Yamaha can't make a 76, it's that Yamaha can't make a GOOD one...

Yamaha has been making keyboards since 1962. They have not been successful by accident. They do their market research and determine which keyboards they can produce and still make a profit.

Attached is a list of past keyboards broken down into their classiffication of "professional keyboards" and "home keyboards".
http://www.yamaha.co.jp/manual/english/chron.php

Some people choose to use a home keyboard for professional use.

I use my PSR3000 for both and love it.

Before purchasing the PSR series, I played professionally for many years using 41 keys (Cordovox) and never heard a complaint that it didn't do the job.

Regards,

Jerry

[This message has been edited by Jerryghr (edited 09-04-2008).]

I'm confident that Yamaha can design and produce a high-quality 76-key arranger, but why should they? They've cornered the 61-key arranger market, and in most of the musicical instruments areas. I wish that everyone that bitched and griped that Yamaha didn't make a keyboard the way that person wanted it made would just purchase another brand. Buy that tank of a Roland, Gem, Korg, or whatever. Oh! What was that? It doesn't sound as good as the Yamaha? Then why in hell would you buy it, or any other keyboard that doesn't sound the way you want. Oh! I almost forgot--it has 76 keys and that makes you a pro performer, especially if the keyboard is black and you need a fork-lift to get it our of your van.

Lots of luck,

Gary



------------------
Travlin' Easy

The way I look at the weight issue is this... Fine..., some of you guys are at that point in your life where these keyboards are too heavy for you. However, people who choose to gig with the 76er G-70 and PA line sure to get a lot of sh*%& about giggin with a keyboard at that weight.

Just because some of you may not be be in the physical condition to pick up a heavy duty well built keyboard.., don't shi*% on those who still have the back strength to gig with them. If you're at that point in your life where a 25lb keyboard is your limit.., that's fine.., I say keep giggin until your fingers fall off, but don't snub those (some here who are even in their seasoned years) who can still gig with these things... The Korg weighs what.., 39-40lbs, and the G-70 is like 45lbs. A case with wheels is a very logical choice..., that clearly will take much of the work out of it..., now if you can't pick one of these keyboards up from your case to the stand.., then that's fine, but again people need to stop sh*%ing on those who can.

Sorry if I offend anyone, but that's just my take on it. Even an old fart like Fran can handle daily giggin with the G-70




[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 09-04-2008).]

Ditto. Well said, Gary.

Ian

Has anyone lifted a Clavinova lately? Or a Motif XS7 or 8?

Once again, you fail to recognize that Yamaha DO make heavier keyboards, they are played by 'home' users as well as pros, and somehow they still make a profit on them.

It's amazing what some people will ignore, just to make a point....

Personally, I don't care one bit what the model designation is. Call it a CVP, call it a DGX, call it a PSR... Who gives a damn? All I'm talking about is a GOOD arranger with a 76. Yamaha already make BAD ones. Why not a good? Or is it already decided that there is no market for a good arranger? The only people that need anything bigger than a 61 are those that need a crappy arranger?

Presumably, those decent pianist chops exclude them from needing a decent arranger section, eh? It's almost as if Yamaha are saying that the greater your technical skill, the LESS you need a decent arranger!

Are you SURE Simon Cowell isn't on their board of directors?

Yamaha certainly knows the music business and does have a responsibily to the stock holders to make a profit.

The Bean counters probally have it figured that 76 key Tyros won't return their investment well enough.

An interesting point is that making that 76 key tyros probably wouldn't make the profit desired but having the product could be very good overall for the company. All benifits cannot be counted in dollars & cents.

Jerry

Yamaha has made several 76 note keyboards in the past. None of them were tremendously successful for Yamaha. I know you guys think I have some kind of hotline to the design and engineering staff at Yamaha, but the truth is, I don't. I don't know what reseach they do before they launch a product, and I don't know exactly how they qualify a failure. But I'm sure, it always comes down to the bottom line. If, in your work you find a formula for success, you stick with it. When you try something new and it doesn't pan out, you shy away. Even if that same formula works for someone else, if it doesn't work for you, you go back to doing the tried and true.

I'm sure these guys (designers) are under tremendous pressure to deliver products to the market that result in profits for the company.

They design musical instruments. A tool designed to fit the hand of the musician. They are not trying to ignore your requests. They are not careless about pissing you off. They are trying to design instruments that please the greatest possible number of customers. They are trying to do their jobs the best they can.

It's a good thing if Roland and Korg are doing well with their 76 note arrangers. If the trend continues, Yamaha won't ingore it. But Yamaha has found that being first doesn't always bring profit. Be patient. I'm not the only one from Yamaha who lurks at this site, not by a long shot.

Yamaha is interested in what you have to say. But the message here is quite fragmented. Pretend you're a marketing guru in Japan, exploring this site for the first time. What message would you take away from the General Arranger Keyboard Forum?

What is Yamaha saying to you? Yamaha isn't saying anything, Yamaha is listening.

Breath of Fresh Air YamahaUS1.
Like your style.

John

If I were a marketing guru at Yamaha, I would look here and see that, for those whose existing needs are covered by existing products, they are doing a bang-up job.

And for those whose needs are NOT covered by existing products - and a poll here showed a convincing (to all but those who didn't need/want the product in the first place!) a significant demand for the keyboard that Yamaha seem incapable of making.

Nothing fragmented about that issue, IMO....

And, once again, we are tired even from those regulars on this forum of the ill-fated 9000pro being tossed out as some kind of excuse, yet alone from those at Yamaha itself, who should realize better... The reason it failed had NOTHING to do with the number of keys. If it was released as a 61, THAT would have failed too, for exactly the same reasons... It was underpowered, experimental and buggy as hell. Are you trying to tell us that if the 9000pro had been released as a 61 and failed, Yamaha would have given up making 61's, too?

Rubbish!

All most of us are asking for is an S900 or T2/3 with a 76 attached. NOT a brand-new, ground-up 'pro' design (whatever that means!). How hard could it be for Yamaha to place ALL the S900 electronics with NO modification into a case with a cheap 76 action? Or the action from the XS7 for the T2/3 76? Too difficult?

One would HOPE that any lurkers from Yamaha here would recognize that fans of existing products are NOT either the market, nor a place to gather opinion from. Why listen to ANYONE that doesn't even WANT the product? It's not like anyone wants Yamaha to STOP making 61's. But they are adamant that Yamaha don't need to produce a product they don't want...

You should listen to the people who DO want the product. And from our own research (it was noted that in recent Yamaha customer satisfaction surveys, nobody even ASKED the question of whether a 76 would be popular IF Yamaha made it) it appears quite a significant percentage WOULD use one if it were made. Including me.

If you want to GROW a brand, you don't listen to those who are already satisfied. You've already got THEM. You listen to those you haven't YET satisfied...

Here's an opportunity to grow the brand, capture market share from your competition, with negligible R&D costs...

What are you waiting for?

YamahaUS1, thank you for taking the time to answer the post. I sure Yamaha has reasons for not producing a 76 key arranger. I'm not personally sure if Korg & Roland 76 key arrangers are flying out the door, but I know that PA80 was one of the best selling keyboard, not the PA1X pro and I'm sure if the SD1 was 61 keys it would have sold just as well if not better. You have a handfull of people that would like 76 tyros, but I don't believe that will warrant yamaha to make that product. This is just like doing a gig, you can't please everyone!!

OK, mc, here's an easy question for you...

Do you think that Yamaha arrangers are the best made at the moment? That's an easy one, isn't it..? Of course you do.

So, if they made a 76 T3/S900, what possible reason do you think it could have for failing? Why would it not dominate sales like apparently they dominate sales of 61's?

Three or four other arranger companies make 76's, without apparently going bankrupt. Roland, Korg, Ketron and Lionstracs (OK, Wersi and Boehm, too. Casio as well?) In fact, Yamaha make a 76 arranger... In fact, two. Jeez, how many times do I have to point this out...

YAMAHA MAKE TWO 76 NOTE ARRANGERS.

Everybody got that now?

So why won't they make just one of two MORE...

You know.... GOOD ONES

Apparently, despite YamahaUS's protests, there IS a market. And not every Yamaha 76 is a failure. OK, cross off those two objections. What's left? Nothing, as far as I can see.

I simply find it amazing the number of people that rush to Yamaha's defense, when they have absolutely no stake whatsoever in the outcome of this debate. They don't WANT a 76, they don't need a 76, they wouldn't buy a 76 if there were one (although I have my doubts on that one), but they remain adamant that Yamaha do NOT satisfy a well documented need for other musicians, even if it had NO impact on their own needs and wants. Talk about a dog in a manger!

But when it comes to something THEY need (like for instance a better harmonizer), well, what is Yamaha waiting for? To all those dogs in the manger, I have but this to say...

Yamaha have absolutely no more need to improve their harmonizer that they do to make a 76 S900. After all, they apparently can do no wrong when it comes to things you DON'T want. Why should it be any different for things you DO?

I personally encourage Yamaha to hold the line DO NOT improve the harmonizer. Those that DO want it are merely whiners with no appreciation for the fact that whatever Yamaha does is, of course, perfectly understandable. You wouldn't BE the market leader if you ever got even the tiniest thing wrong, would you?

Can I pull my tongue out of my cheek now?

Diki,

You see what you want to see. I didn't mention the 9000PRO. We've made numerous other 76 note instruments over the years. We currently have 2 models. Granted, neither are high end arranger workstations, but there is plenty of relevent data.

Back in May of last year you said: "Yamaha would be amazed at the number of Motif7's in the hands of 'home' users, not to mention the huge sales of 88 key, heavy 'home' digital pianos. Somehow, the thought of 76 or more keys, with the weight penalty that implies, doesn't seem to bother THOSE divisions...

Plus, obviously, their 'market research' doesn't involve visiting SZ where they can find countless posts by players wanting a 76 note Tyros. This stinks of laziness, rather than responsiveness to customers' actual NEEDS...."

Diki, you are wrong on both counts. We know far better than you how many Motif7 we've sold, how many "heavy" instruments we've. Obviously somebody is paying attention to the numbers. Plus, SZ is one of many forums we are watching every day."

As you can tell I pay very close attention to what goes on here. Quiet and lazy are not the same thing. Yamaha takes all this very seriously. Yamaha is being careful. If you truly would be the first in line to buy a 76 note Tyros, I hope you get your chance.

Regards,

Steve Deming

50% of arranger players is quite a big handful I would say... I realize that the poll was taken on the SZ general arranger Forum but just like a Gallup or some other respected national poll, the poll(s) only consist of a certain limited number of people who take them. But the results (even though taken from a limited amount of public input) will generally substantiate and reveal the same type of public opinion nationwide. In other words, if we, the arranger keyboard musicians on SZ, produce a poll result of 50% of us that would like a 76 key high-end totl arranger for our playing needs, then it is basically most likely indicative of arranger keyboard players nationwide and I would guess well beyond the U.S. national border as well. And when you realize that the vast majority of Eastern and Western European keyboardists who gig professionally do it on a keyboard with at least 73 keys (76 or 88 keys preferably) you don't even need to take a poll across the pond. It is already a well established fact and preference for gigging keyboardists in Europe. >> PS: I'm not talking about playing 'synthesizers' i.e. Moog Phatty, Access Virus TI, V-Synth, etc. >> I'm talking about 'workstations' and 'arranger' keyboardists who prefer more than 61 keys for their gigging needs.

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 09-04-2008).]

There you have it folks. Steve Deming of Yamaha U.S has confirmed to us and the world (although very subtly mind you) that the Tyros4 will be a 76 noter. LONG LIVE YAMAHA!!! HALLELUJAH!

Best,
Mike

PS: Steve, if you'd like to correct my assessment of reading between your lines, go ahead... make my DAY.

Great News!! Next Year or?

Diki,

I don't beleive that yamaha is the "best" or no other company. Each company suites everyone needs. I currently own a s900. This was my first yamaha ever, I've always owned a Ketron, with a korg or roland here and there, but it was always a ketron. I gave yamaha a try, the s900 was a nice packaged keyboard, it was different. I liked the sounds, styles it had voice effect, usb and I got it onsale. My dad always used yamaha until the mid to late 90's, then he switched to solton/ketron. I remember all of the psr's with the exception of one, were 76 keys. so there were plenty of 76's before 9000pro.

I don't believe a company will go bankrupt if they don't sell 76's that they manufactured. But from what I hear and see yamaha is probably has the best selling arranger division then any other company. The visit the samash in times square, nyc the rep told me that they can't give the g70 away, but the tyros has sold. Either way it does not matter to me, if the next keyboard has what I want i'll buy it, if not, I won't. As you stated there are other companies that make 76, so purchase one of those or a s900 midi to a 76 controller will also way work also. If your that upset that Yamaha does not make a 76 tyros/s900 keyboard obviously your hooked on them also.

I would adore a 6 octave S900, 700 or 500.

Had I not read bad stories about the 9000Pro's processing problems I might well have picked up a second hand one rather than my PSR3000.

To my mind [not] creating such a keyboard looks like a market deliniation issue, I agree with the theory that making a 6 octave mid-range arranger could well impact other sales.

Lets face it, Yamaha already make 88 key arrangers in the CVP range, seemingly based very heavily on PSR 1500 and later hardware. They make bearable (to some of us anyway) lightweight 6 and 7 octave keybeds used in the DGX range and the NP30 piano. Putting a 6 octave keybed onto a CVP eletronics board is damn near just a case of getting around the "some keyboard matrix connections aren't in use" issue, so I don't think it would cost Yamaha that much time, effort and investment to put S900 electronics into a DGX 6 octave shell.

Therefore it's a marketing issue!

Yamaha of course know EXACTLY how many XS7's they've sold. And I agree (shock, horror!) that the sales figures for that size may indeed be the lowest of all three. BUT....

IT DOESN'T STOP YAMAHA FROM MAKING IT...

And, I predict pretty confidently (because Yamaha has been making all three sizes of WS's for decades, now) that, although it is the lowest selling size, they will continue to keep making it....

Yamaha are quite content to make keyboards that sell in lesser numbers than 61 versions in other divisions. What is it about the arranger division that prevents them from doing the same? A spine, perhaps?

Hi Steve,
since we're doing a bit of a wish list,
has Yamaha ever considered an arranger module??

With all the free 3rd party style editing/creation software available,
the module possibly wouldn't even need style creation functions onboard.

Something basic with good quality sounds & styles.

Suppose we can only dream.

best wishes
Rikki

What a lot of persons seem to be doing when discussing Yamaha making a 76 key TOTL arranger is comparing the requested Yamaha 76 key arranger (lets call it the “Nirvana” for this discussion) to the G70 PA 2x and the 9000 pro. That IMO is an incorrect comparisons. That is mixing apples and oranges.

The “Nirvana” would not be anything like the other 76 key arrangers. For one it would be light. It would have every thing the T3 has except it will be 76 keys. And most importantly, it will be a Yamaha.

After all, it is the sounds and styles that people are wanting to get the T3.

The “Nirvana” would not have to be 5LBS more than the T2. It would not have to be more than 4 inches that the T2.

And best of all, the “Nirvana” would have the supreme Yamaha styles and sounds and that would be the compelling reason for persons to buy the “Nirvana”. So those who had a T1 T2 or a PSR would not mind if it has 76 keys because it does not subtract anything that they had already but it only ads. They can choose to use or not use the extra keys.


Every time there is a discussion about Yamaha making a 76 key arranger, you must ask the question:

When Yamaha upgrades their TOTL arranger (T1-T2 or T2-T3), would there sales decrease and would their profit decrease if the keyboard was 76 keys, lightweight, compact in size, has the great Yamaha sounds and styles and is reasonably priced?

If their TOTL was only 76 keys, not only would the sales not decrease, but Yamaha would also get a new market (people who want the 76 keys). They would do that without loosing any of their current customers.

When they don’t make a 76 key arranger (when the evidence shows that there will be no harm to Yamaha and there is no reasonable explanation as to why Yamaha does not make a 76 key TOTL arranger), they demonstrate to their market that they just do not care. Its almost like giving the finger to persons who want a Yamaha TOTL 76 key arranger.

Come on Yamaha, give us “Nirvana”. A 76 key TOTL lightweight great sounding arranger.

I think this is raising a red flag to T2/3 and S900 users.

Why would Yamaha STOP making a 61 arranger that is SO successful? It wouldn't be in their best interest at all...

And, again, a brand new 'pro' arranger with a 76 and totally new features and sounds, styles, etc., is simply a risky move for a company already gun-shy about the idea. No... simply a Tyros and/or an S900 with absolutely NOTHING added or taken away other than the keybed is all we are asking for. No R&D, no new styles, no new OS, no new features, no new sounds, nothing nada zip....

Just a 76 tacked onto the same internal parts, sounds and OS. Pretty simple, eh?
----------------------------------------------

Look, Steve, if you are still lurking, I've got one other suggestion. Perhaps a way we can BOTH win. A simple OS modification that would allow a 76 to control the 61 arranger....

The problem using an external controller on an arranger is that the arranger's Registration takes it's internal keyboard, and divides it up into the ranges for each Part, allows velocity curves to be different for each, routes aftertouch to the correct destination, changes split points, assigns the correct, range for arranger control, etc., etc., but to do all that from an external keyboard requires some pretty fancy programming, none of which is, of course, controllable from the arranger's Registrations. You have to do double the programming, and even then there is a lot that just doesn't work right....

BUT... what if there was an "Arranger Mirror' channel? In other words, send the arranger ONE MIDI channel, from top to bottom of the source keyboard, and have the arranger itself map those ranges, controls, destinations, all that other stuff, JUST AS IF IT WERE LOOKING AT IT'S OWN KEYBOARD.

There is a very similar function on my K2500. No matter how complicated the Setup, eight zones, multiple destinations, controller mapping, velocity cross-splits, you name it, if you send the K2500 ONE 'dumb' MIDI channel from another keyboard, the Kurzweil maps all those splits and everything to it. It basically just treats it as if it were the raw input from it's own keyboard.

Now this, I imagine, is probably VERY easy to do. The arranger already is doing this to it's own keyboard, all the code has to do is do exactly the same to a MIDI input of ONE channel only. Simple, no?

Now, you could hook up ANY 61, 76, 88, MIDI guitar, you name it, and the controller will have the same functions as if it were the REAL arranger keyboard. Maybe an NP-30. Maybe an XK8, maybe a Motif XS7/8, maybe anything the customer wants...

If Yamaha Japan are adamant about nixing the 76 PSR and Tyros, perhaps they might consider adding this to the OS. Who knows, this could result in the sale of TWO Yamaha keyboards (an arranger AND a 76/88 controller) to someone who at present is unable to buy any... That's good business sense, isn't it? Even if we were to use our existing 76's, you'll still get a 61 sale out of someone who wouldn't buy one under any other circumstances.

A simple OS addition to get MANY additional sales of existing products... Sounds like win/win to me

Quoting Diki,
"BUT... what if there was an "Arranger Mirror' channel? In other words, send the arranger ONE MIDI channel, from top to bottom of the source keyboard, and have the arranger itself map those ranges, controls, destinations, all that other stuff, JUST AS IF IT WERE LOOKING AT IT'S OWN KEYBOARD.

There is a very similar function on my K2500. No matter how complicated the Setup, eight zones, multiple destinations, controller mapping, velocity cross-splits, you name it, if you send the K2500 ONE 'dumb' MIDI channel from another keyboard, the Kurzweil maps all those splits and everything to it. It basically just treats it as if it were the raw input from it's own keyboard.

Now this, I imagine, is probably VERY easy to do. The arranger already is doing this to it's own keyboard, all the code has to do is do exactly the same to a MIDI input of ONE channel only. Simple, no?"


That can be done already(talking Ty2).
There are default midi templates that are setup for Ext. KB control or if you want something more special you can edit them yourself.
In fact even using the OOTB default "All Parts" template, if you connect a controller KB set up to transmit on ch1 to the midi-IN B port of Ty2 that's what you get.


You can also play a single midi track into Ty2 (setup in Keyboard mode) and it will treat it in the same way as if a pair of hands were playing the keyboard directly.
Which has all sorts of implications- if we can think of a good use for it!

John

John is exactly right. This feature of remote keyboard operation emulating the usage of its own keyboard is already presesnt in all Yamaha arranger workstations for many years now. Some of the lower models can do it too.

Rikki,

Thanks for the input.

Steve

Can an S900 do this?

What about codes for triggering the different variations and fills..? Can you do that too?

The need for 76-keys is mentioned every time a new arranger is released, but it is not clear why you would want that.
First of all: if you bought an arranger to play piano or organ, you bought the wrong instrument. If you love the Yamaha sound like I do, then you buy a Motif. If you want an orchestra at your fingertips, then you buy an arranger.

I must admit that I sometimes run out of keys on my PSR3000 - mostly this happens around the splitpoint for left and right side of the keyboard. You have about 1.5 octaves for the chords, so there remains 3.5 octaves for melody - 3.5 to 4 octaves is the limit for most wind- and brass instruments anyway.
Even the 1.5 octave for the chords are sometimes not sufficient and - depends what key I am playing in - I have to find other ways to play certain chords if I run out of keys. And then you are left with 3.5 octaves to play around with. True, if you use organ and piano voices it is just not enough, but for most voices it is enough - for some voices it is even too many.

So why not hook up a 76-key controller to your arranger? Maybe Yamaha should give demos where the demonstrators just do that.

What would the advantage be with 76 keys?
Well, with 61 keys I have to search for other ways to play a chord, or I should shift the splitnotes, but then I run out of low notes for my melodies and or improvs. Espescially organs, accordions, pianos and other voices like that, 3.5 octaves is not much. So for those voices you might want an extra octave.
It is not even necessary to go from C to C, on the left side you could start with a F or G and you could end on the right with a F or G as well.


[This message has been edited by drdalet (edited 09-06-2008).]

If you use chord inversions you can play most of the chords within 1 octave.
There is no reason to fix your split point even in a song, just store it in the preset(s) that you use for the song. (Split points can be put on any key and stored in the preset)
An arranger is designed to cover all types of music, including Piano and Organ.
Just because one person finds 61 notes sufficient, another person may not. (And vice versa)
Here are the ranges of instruments. http://www.4shared.com/file/61948604/2539e70a/Instrument_Range.html

Bill

76 keys is a compromise that I agree with you. But as you stated yourself you have run out of keys on your 61 noter, and probably more times than wish to remember. But for Yamaha to make a 'portable' 88 key "totl" arranger, would be something that is most likely years (if not light years) away. 76 keys is a compromise, granted, yet in my opinon a "good" compromise. There would be only occasional and very rare instances where you would actually need those 12 extra keys for a song, etc., that an 88 noter brings to the table. Now, when you turn that figure around, you now have 95% or more of the songs that you play that a 76 key will do just fine for. Yes, they are semi-weighted keys and that is a compromise too. But just getting a 76 "semi-weighted" totl arranger out of Yamaha is like pulling teeth or actually "much" worse than pulling teeth , so semi-weighted is the next best thing and the only thing we COULD hope for from Yamaha I dare say. FWIW, Kurzweil has made a new name for itself by making fully weighted keys on a few of their 76 key workstations/stage pianos.

Truthfully, if Yamaha attempted an 88 key totl arranger that weighed around what the T2 weighs (or even a few lbs. more) my preference would be to buy the 88 key totl arranger from Yamaha. But since that will most likely never happen for eons to come, if ever - 76 keys is a good starting point.




The idea is to have ONE piece of equipment to lug around NOT two..



I suppose it's a case of the individual seeing the glass as being half-empty or whether one perceives it to be "three quarters" full. My opinions of course, but there are 50% of arranger players out in keyboard land that feel similar to the way I do.

Best,
Mike



[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 09-06-2008).]

Originally posted by drdalet:
What would the advantage be with 76 keys?
not much.

I think 76 keys is ideal...
88 keys..I have some keys I never ..ever..play..as with most folks...maybe glissando's...

76 is perfect...low E handles the lowest note on the bass (for playing left hand bass)..and enough range for splits (even multi splits)..

As for buying an arranger to play piano....Why not?

As previously mentioned..we want one board to cover all the bases..

In fact there are some 76 key arrangers with pianos that are as good as can be found on any workstation...

An astounding question...

Why would you want to buy several different keyboards to do several different things, if ONE keyboard could do it all?

Oh, that's right... YOU'VE got money to throw away!

You see, there are SOME people who like to use their arrangers for more than simple LH chords, RH melody. I know, you may find this hard to believe, but it's true! For instance, on just about every arranger out there, there is an SMF player. Now, why on earth would that be there, if you were only supposed to play in arranger mode, LH chords, RH solo melody?

And, once you use SMF's, well, look! Your left hand just got freed up! Maybe now you might consider playing a real piano part, or Rhodes. You know, those pesky keyboards with more than 61 notes (damn them!). Hold on a second... you CAN play a real piano part? Well, what about that Piano Mode on your arranger, the one that lets you play just like a pianist, and it STILL follows your input well...? Not much point in that if you haven't got a keyboard big enough to play a real piano part on in the first place!

What about the few of us that occasionally (or more than occasionally!) like to play with REAL musicians? You know, you might like to play a piano part with those guys... What's that you say? I ought to go and buy another instrument altogether for those occasions? Should I also buy a B3 and a clavinet and an Oberheim and a stack of keyboards ten feet tall for that as well?

Modern TOTL arrangers have ALL the sounds you could ever want, to cover every kind of musical need you could ever want (short of a techno/trance hardcore gig) from playing simple LH chords, RH melody, all the way up to first call studio work and everything in between. BUT.... if it is tied to a keyboard that severely restricts what and HOW you play by providing insufficient notes to play full piano and E. Piano parts, and restricting the available range for splits, it is arbitrarily limiting you for no other reason that saving costs with a cheap, short keyboard.

The thing you have to do is look past your own, extremely limited requirements, and understand that there are many, many players who appreciate the advantages of an arranger, but would like to be able to play other styles, other modes AS WELL. And we SURE don't feel like having to go out and buy multiple keyboards, when a 76 on the one we already HAVE would do the job just as good, if not better than a WS....

Great post Diki......no problem you just cant do it with a Yamaha arranger....

Roland, Korg, Ketron, MS is the way to go for the 76'er affectionado

Back to the question at the top of this page...

Can the S900 do the 'one channel MIDI input, treat as if it were the built-in keyboard' trick?

That's a seriously handy feature. ALL arrangers should have it, even the low and mid-line ones, IMO...

Combine that with customizable codes for triggering variations and fills (because there is NO cross-manufacturer standard, yet) and you have a pretty easy to set up two arranger über-arranger

My G70, plus the S900's Mega guitars and SA voices = possibly the best arranger in the world! (OK, T3 if I had the budget!)

Diki:
Looking at the manual the editable midi templates on the S900 are almost identical to Ty2 meaning a controller keyboard can be set up to work- even if not immediately by default as you can on Ty2 (I'm not sure, S900 does not have a 2nd (midiB) port) then by selection and/or editing.

With regard to what can further be done via midi:
If I drive my Ty2 in Keyboard mode with a single "pair of hands" midi track I can try out different style and voice arrangements, tempos, pitch bend etc. etc. as "it" plays the song.
If I record the sysex as I change style variations/fills/endings then feed it back in the next time at playback, whatever style is loaded on the keyboard responds. You sometimes get unexpected effects using sysex so debugging (of the setup used, not the keyboard!)would be necessary to get it reliable but it shows feasibility.

John

[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 09-08-2008).]

Hi Steve,
I'd luv to add a module to my CLP170.

Didn't want to take the risk of buying a CVP as digital piano's are pretty difficult to resell over here in Aust. and most dealers don't want trade ins.

And since keyboards keep improving with each new model, I would have grown dissatisfied with the old model.

Anyway, just a thought.

Thanks for your answers.
Of course a 76-key Tyros is welcome, but I meant only for the voices that uses that range. I hardly use those voices so personally I am reasonably happy with the upper range I have now ... untill I play the "organ" of course. I used to play "the Cat" (Jimmy Smith) but I need more keys for that, so I scratched it from my repertoire.

If you want to play piano (not just the voice with accomp. but as an instrument) 61 keys is totally insufficient. 76-keys is just OK. I seldom use the piano voice so for me that is no problem. I am not a pianist anyway.

But I did forget about splitting the upper range in two separate regions, which on a Tyros is more interesting than on my PSR3000 (Right 1-2), because the Tyros has an extra voice (Right 1-3). You DO need more than 61 keys to fully make use of that. I often play voices that sound terrible in the upper region anyway, and a split wouldn't leave enough keys for another voice. But (as 'abacus' suggested for the keysplit) you can use presets for that.

BTW thanks for that instrument range. But it is not just the range of the instrument, because Yamaha didn't sample every note of that range for every instrument, that is an important thing to consider when playing a voice.

As for the left side of the board: I could never use all the chords I play in one octave, fi when I play in Bb. Even if it is possible it is not always logical. It is very strange when you hear a chord go up, while you go down on the keyboard.
Chord inversions sometimes use a different bass-note which I don't want. Sometimes I use inversions just to have the bass react differently, sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. Chord inversions are necessary anyway, also when using C - f# as the left key range.

I agree that everyone has his own style of playing and therefore different needs. But 76-keys seems on the top of the list for some people.
For me the Multipads are on the top of the list. It is really hard to program them and I think few people do use them as a sequencer like I do.
On this webpage of my site
some examples what I do with multipads and a few of my songs.
Greetz
drdalet

[This message has been edited by drdalet (edited 09-08-2008).]

DR.......Bravo, really nice work enjoyed listening! We all have our own niche & I can see you found yours in music.

Thanx for sharing your work...its refreshing to hear someone acually play something instead of just reading posts.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-08-2008).]

Diki,

On the S900, when the MIDI template is set so that Ch.1 is KEYBOARD, the MIDI input emulates the local keyboard 100%. Changes to styles or anything else is still accomplished from the S900 control panel.

Steve

Kudos to Dr. Dalet. I really like "Completion", "Simple Tune", and "Think it Over Now". Kinda gives me a Syd Barrett meets Nick Drake feel.

That's about the highest form of compliment coming from me. Drake and Barrett are two of my all time favorites.

Sorry for going off topic here, but it isn't often I hear something out of this forum that I can connect with so readily.

As far as the original idea, I must say that I haven't given very much thought to what Yamaha is saying, since I'm not interested in the T3 anyway.

AJ

Oh wow. I have just finished reading your history, can't believe I just stumbled upon the website of the creator of the Muzikollage

Great site, and that last page "At home now" is really literally just the "tip of the iceberg". Thanks for sharing!

------------------
- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl

Oh, thank you, guys - I didn't expect those remarks. The site was a celebration for my 50 years in music, so I made it for myself, really.
I was tired of programming my music on the computer and wanted to PLAY. So after many years of not playing at all I picked it up with the PSR3000, and very happy with it.
My aim is to be able to play everything live. So the songs you hear (on the page about the PSR3K) I can play live exactly the same. I am planning to make a video with me playing Allo Allo on the keyboard to show how I use the multipads. And I had a request to do the same with 'Funky Pads' to convince someone I did that in one take.
Thanks again for your remarks.
Herco

If yamaha were "SO" concerned,it would have a playing phase of say 2-3months to work out all their bugs before letting their customers do it for them.LCD screens anyone,under powered 9000's,crapy drums,low supply of customs voice banks..ya ok.."being very careful".Why don't YOU guys work with it for a few months first and be the slightly disappointed ones first.

Just make the damn "Tyros Pro" already. I don't care what it costs, I'll buy it. I want a Yamaha keyboard to use on 1-man gigs (arranger), but also in a band (backing), and combinations of those.

76 keys, XLR connectors, the works. I don't want many boards, I want one, and I'll pay for it! So make it.

(Before anyone suggests some other make of kb, forget about it. I want the Yamaha sound and technology. So for now it's gotta be the Tyros3. But if a "pro" model comes out in a year, they got my cash.)

The thing that kills me about the Tyros, other than not having 76 keys, is that there is no Octave button dedicated for the LEFT HAND voices?????

If you want to play left hand bass, sometimes that extra Octave comes in handy. If you want to play songs like I WILL SURVIVE that has the arpeggio in the beginning, you need 76 keys.

But if your going to sell a FLAGSHIP keyboard with only 61 keys, why for crying out loud can't you put a OCTAVE button on the LEFT HAND voice??????

------------------
Al Giordano
Visit us at ARRANGER WORLD! http://www.arrangerworld.com

Korg Pa2xpro, Roland VK8-M, DW Collectors Series Drums, Roland TD-12 Vdrums, Roland SPD-S.

Here's a quote from this link:
http://www.yamahapkowner.com/forum/index.php?topic=15384.0


"The Intro's and endings etc have been changed in many cases also and so this is where the bulk of effort went into. There is also a Piano 'Octave' button [by the modulation wheel] so that you can now play the lower octave Piano Bass notes. The Organ 'Leslie' is operated by the mod wheel also in Drawbar mode- sweet!"

Does that address the issue?

John

OK, BUT, I wander if it works in split mode? Or just full keyboard mode?

Lee

Controlling the leslie with the mod wheel isn't by any means a new feature. Many other keyboards have been doing this for years..., unless there's some new way that the T3 is doing this..,, I can't see anything "shock and awe" worthy of that feature.

I knew it was a mistake leaving the extra sentence or 2 in rather than sticking to just anwering the original question.
Not everything has to be shock and awe, sometimes it's just "information/ observation" FWIW
Keep cool

John

My response wasn't to be a smart ass man... It was more out of curiousity. The way you stated it made it sound like this was a newly added feature..., which I honestly thought the Tyros was already capable of doing because this is a pretty common feature on keyboards. I'm not an organ player.., all the time I've spent on the Tyros I focused on other areas, but still played a bit with the drawbars too, but I can't say that I did anything with mod wheel while running through the organ voices--which by the way were pretty impressive.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 09-12-2008).]

Newer Roland's have a 'floating split point' feature (sadly, not my G70 ) that kind of makes this stuff moot.

Maybe Yamaha could incorporate this? (Heck, a free software update could do it - oops! I forgot, Yamaha don't do those much, do they )

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 09-12-2008).]

No freebies from Yamaha Diki. The software update for a Tyros 2 costs $4,000! Its called a Tyros 3 or in my opinion should have been named a Tyros 2.1.

Pick up a Casio Previa and you will have a very inexpensive and light 88 note weighted keyboard controller that more than makes up for 61 keys. (or the P-85)

Yamaha does not need to make an Arranger with 76 keys, They will sell everyone they make with 61 keys becasue of the SUPPORT available for their line. We don;t sell a whole lot of Tyros but we sell a ton of S900 and package them with the P-85 for those who don't want to pay for the Clavinovas and those who play out professionally.

In the Home Studio we use a Roland RD700 for the controller but that's a beast to carry around and the Yamahas and Korgs have just as good if not better Piano sounds depending on what you like..

The additional sliders makes it more than a software upgrade as well as a host of other physical features including the Hard drive and the movement of the pads to the left side where they should have been all along.
% effects per style is nice as well as the articulation buttons. The PSR900 is far closer to the Tyros 2 then the Tyros 3.

There's where you can really see what Yamaha has improved upon. They did a good job and I'm looking forward it.
Its all about Styles or why not just buy a Fantom, or M3,or Motif. If you cannot get thousands of styles and a huge base of support in that regard. having an Arranger with great sounds is just another very very expensive 61 or 76 unweighted key synth