Has anyone lifted a Clavinova lately? Or a Motif XS7 or 8?

Once again, you fail to recognize that Yamaha DO make heavier keyboards, they are played by 'home' users as well as pros, and somehow they still make a profit on them.

It's amazing what some people will ignore, just to make a point....

Personally, I don't care one bit what the model designation is. Call it a CVP, call it a DGX, call it a PSR... Who gives a damn? All I'm talking about is a GOOD arranger with a 76. Yamaha already make BAD ones. Why not a good? Or is it already decided that there is no market for a good arranger? The only people that need anything bigger than a 61 are those that need a crappy arranger?

Presumably, those decent pianist chops exclude them from needing a decent arranger section, eh? It's almost as if Yamaha are saying that the greater your technical skill, the LESS you need a decent arranger!

Are you SURE Simon Cowell isn't on their board of directors?

Yamaha certainly knows the music business and does have a responsibily to the stock holders to make a profit.

The Bean counters probally have it figured that 76 key Tyros won't return their investment well enough.

An interesting point is that making that 76 key tyros probably wouldn't make the profit desired but having the product could be very good overall for the company. All benifits cannot be counted in dollars & cents.

Jerry

Yamaha has made several 76 note keyboards in the past. None of them were tremendously successful for Yamaha. I know you guys think I have some kind of hotline to the design and engineering staff at Yamaha, but the truth is, I don't. I don't know what reseach they do before they launch a product, and I don't know exactly how they qualify a failure. But I'm sure, it always comes down to the bottom line. If, in your work you find a formula for success, you stick with it. When you try something new and it doesn't pan out, you shy away. Even if that same formula works for someone else, if it doesn't work for you, you go back to doing the tried and true.

I'm sure these guys (designers) are under tremendous pressure to deliver products to the market that result in profits for the company.

They design musical instruments. A tool designed to fit the hand of the musician. They are not trying to ignore your requests. They are not careless about pissing you off. They are trying to design instruments that please the greatest possible number of customers. They are trying to do their jobs the best they can.

It's a good thing if Roland and Korg are doing well with their 76 note arrangers. If the trend continues, Yamaha won't ingore it. But Yamaha has found that being first doesn't always bring profit. Be patient. I'm not the only one from Yamaha who lurks at this site, not by a long shot.

Yamaha is interested in what you have to say. But the message here is quite fragmented. Pretend you're a marketing guru in Japan, exploring this site for the first time. What message would you take away from the General Arranger Keyboard Forum?

What is Yamaha saying to you? Yamaha isn't saying anything, Yamaha is listening.

Breath of Fresh Air YamahaUS1.
Like your style.

John

If I were a marketing guru at Yamaha, I would look here and see that, for those whose existing needs are covered by existing products, they are doing a bang-up job.

And for those whose needs are NOT covered by existing products - and a poll here showed a convincing (to all but those who didn't need/want the product in the first place!) a significant demand for the keyboard that Yamaha seem incapable of making.

Nothing fragmented about that issue, IMO....

And, once again, we are tired even from those regulars on this forum of the ill-fated 9000pro being tossed out as some kind of excuse, yet alone from those at Yamaha itself, who should realize better... The reason it failed had NOTHING to do with the number of keys. If it was released as a 61, THAT would have failed too, for exactly the same reasons... It was underpowered, experimental and buggy as hell. Are you trying to tell us that if the 9000pro had been released as a 61 and failed, Yamaha would have given up making 61's, too?

Rubbish!

All most of us are asking for is an S900 or T2/3 with a 76 attached. NOT a brand-new, ground-up 'pro' design (whatever that means!). How hard could it be for Yamaha to place ALL the S900 electronics with NO modification into a case with a cheap 76 action? Or the action from the XS7 for the T2/3 76? Too difficult?

One would HOPE that any lurkers from Yamaha here would recognize that fans of existing products are NOT either the market, nor a place to gather opinion from. Why listen to ANYONE that doesn't even WANT the product? It's not like anyone wants Yamaha to STOP making 61's. But they are adamant that Yamaha don't need to produce a product they don't want...

You should listen to the people who DO want the product. And from our own research (it was noted that in recent Yamaha customer satisfaction surveys, nobody even ASKED the question of whether a 76 would be popular IF Yamaha made it) it appears quite a significant percentage WOULD use one if it were made. Including me.

If you want to GROW a brand, you don't listen to those who are already satisfied. You've already got THEM. You listen to those you haven't YET satisfied...

Here's an opportunity to grow the brand, capture market share from your competition, with negligible R&D costs...

What are you waiting for?

YamahaUS1, thank you for taking the time to answer the post. I sure Yamaha has reasons for not producing a 76 key arranger. I'm not personally sure if Korg & Roland 76 key arrangers are flying out the door, but I know that PA80 was one of the best selling keyboard, not the PA1X pro and I'm sure if the SD1 was 61 keys it would have sold just as well if not better. You have a handfull of people that would like 76 tyros, but I don't believe that will warrant yamaha to make that product. This is just like doing a gig, you can't please everyone!!

OK, mc, here's an easy question for you...

Do you think that Yamaha arrangers are the best made at the moment? That's an easy one, isn't it..? Of course you do.

So, if they made a 76 T3/S900, what possible reason do you think it could have for failing? Why would it not dominate sales like apparently they dominate sales of 61's?

Three or four other arranger companies make 76's, without apparently going bankrupt. Roland, Korg, Ketron and Lionstracs (OK, Wersi and Boehm, too. Casio as well?) In fact, Yamaha make a 76 arranger... In fact, two. Jeez, how many times do I have to point this out...

YAMAHA MAKE TWO 76 NOTE ARRANGERS.

Everybody got that now?

So why won't they make just one of two MORE...

You know.... GOOD ONES

Apparently, despite YamahaUS's protests, there IS a market. And not every Yamaha 76 is a failure. OK, cross off those two objections. What's left? Nothing, as far as I can see.

I simply find it amazing the number of people that rush to Yamaha's defense, when they have absolutely no stake whatsoever in the outcome of this debate. They don't WANT a 76, they don't need a 76, they wouldn't buy a 76 if there were one (although I have my doubts on that one), but they remain adamant that Yamaha do NOT satisfy a well documented need for other musicians, even if it had NO impact on their own needs and wants. Talk about a dog in a manger!

But when it comes to something THEY need (like for instance a better harmonizer), well, what is Yamaha waiting for? To all those dogs in the manger, I have but this to say...

Yamaha have absolutely no more need to improve their harmonizer that they do to make a 76 S900. After all, they apparently can do no wrong when it comes to things you DON'T want. Why should it be any different for things you DO?

I personally encourage Yamaha to hold the line DO NOT improve the harmonizer. Those that DO want it are merely whiners with no appreciation for the fact that whatever Yamaha does is, of course, perfectly understandable. You wouldn't BE the market leader if you ever got even the tiniest thing wrong, would you?

Can I pull my tongue out of my cheek now?

Diki,

You see what you want to see. I didn't mention the 9000PRO. We've made numerous other 76 note instruments over the years. We currently have 2 models. Granted, neither are high end arranger workstations, but there is plenty of relevent data.

Back in May of last year you said: "Yamaha would be amazed at the number of Motif7's in the hands of 'home' users, not to mention the huge sales of 88 key, heavy 'home' digital pianos. Somehow, the thought of 76 or more keys, with the weight penalty that implies, doesn't seem to bother THOSE divisions...

Plus, obviously, their 'market research' doesn't involve visiting SZ where they can find countless posts by players wanting a 76 note Tyros. This stinks of laziness, rather than responsiveness to customers' actual NEEDS...."

Diki, you are wrong on both counts. We know far better than you how many Motif7 we've sold, how many "heavy" instruments we've. Obviously somebody is paying attention to the numbers. Plus, SZ is one of many forums we are watching every day."

As you can tell I pay very close attention to what goes on here. Quiet and lazy are not the same thing. Yamaha takes all this very seriously. Yamaha is being careful. If you truly would be the first in line to buy a 76 note Tyros, I hope you get your chance.

Regards,

Steve Deming

50% of arranger players is quite a big handful I would say... I realize that the poll was taken on the SZ general arranger Forum but just like a Gallup or some other respected national poll, the poll(s) only consist of a certain limited number of people who take them. But the results (even though taken from a limited amount of public input) will generally substantiate and reveal the same type of public opinion nationwide. In other words, if we, the arranger keyboard musicians on SZ, produce a poll result of 50% of us that would like a 76 key high-end totl arranger for our playing needs, then it is basically most likely indicative of arranger keyboard players nationwide and I would guess well beyond the U.S. national border as well. And when you realize that the vast majority of Eastern and Western European keyboardists who gig professionally do it on a keyboard with at least 73 keys (76 or 88 keys preferably) you don't even need to take a poll across the pond. It is already a well established fact and preference for gigging keyboardists in Europe. >> PS: I'm not talking about playing 'synthesizers' i.e. Moog Phatty, Access Virus TI, V-Synth, etc. >> I'm talking about 'workstations' and 'arranger' keyboardists who prefer more than 61 keys for their gigging needs.

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 09-04-2008).]

There you have it folks. Steve Deming of Yamaha U.S has confirmed to us and the world (although very subtly mind you) that the Tyros4 will be a 76 noter. LONG LIVE YAMAHA!!! HALLELUJAH!

Best,
Mike

PS: Steve, if you'd like to correct my assessment of reading between your lines, go ahead... make my DAY.