http://www.4shared.com/file/62392924/1b0ddf9b/Peter_B_on_T3_Vid.html
http://www.4shared.com/file/62394511/6c3bde6f/Peter_B_on_T3_Vid2_WMV.html


more T3 videos

"You must consider the separate division this keybard is in within Yamaha......the HOME KEYBOARD Division."

>> So why does the Home Keyboard Division give the Tyros3 SA2 voices which the PRO keyboard division doesn't even have in any of their keyboards yet? Sure, the next version that replaces the Motif series WILL get the SA2 voices too. But I consider that a trickle down effect from the Home Keyboard division to the PRO Division, not the other way around. Let's face it Kingfrog, if someone is willing to shell out $4,500 for a Home Keyboard with 61 keys, why shouldn't they expect the Drum Kits to be up to snuff to at least the Yamaha PRO division's $3,500 Motif XS8 88 key workstation? Something is not formulating correctly to my mathematical way of thinking... Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't one get comparable or better sounds (think T3 Drums) if one pays "more" for a keyboard product (think T3) - regardless of whether it's made in the Home Keyboard Division or on the Planet Mars or Pluto for that matter.. Yamaha is putting up a "rude awakening" sign saying: "Buy Me, Buy Me.. i.e. the T3 - You will be getting less with the T3 than our PRO Division Boards which in some instances cost thousands less, but no matter, Buy Me Buy Me - anyway! Huh?? But people seem to be willing to follow the Pied Piper i.e. Yamaha off a cliff if necessary, even if it's to their own detriment. Oh well, such is life in the land of Yamaha loyalists I reckon.
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"You won't see a Tyros on stage with any major act. They use the Motif from another division."

>> So far that is the case Kingfrog. There are actual PRO's using the Tyros series (mostly the T1). Maybe one of the reasons you don't see a PRO using a T1/2/3 on Stage is they don't want to embarrass themselves with the Tyros' lackluster and compressed sounding Drum Kits perhaps? I'm not talking about playing with the auto-accompaniment ON, I'm talking about having access to great sounding Drum and Percussion Kits that would be triggered manually with the keys, just like they do with the Motif XS on Stage. Or having them available to use with custom Sequences, just like they do with the Motif XS on Stage as well.

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"These are marketed to those who cannot afford a Clavinova or want a Clavinova in a portable."

>> Okay... But the Clavinova is also lacking in quality Drum Kits by the fact that you're correlating and equating the T3 to a Clavinova. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img] So the Clavinova also has lackluster Drum Kits too apparently right? [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/frown.gif[/img]
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"Arrangers are simple not considered Professional use keyboards. Those who use them in that manner are in the minority and carry little weight with Yamaha. Now the Motif owners complaining about something WILL get a lot of attention."

I see... if you pay less for a keyboard (think Motif XS) you'll actually get Yamaha to listen to you then eh? [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img]

First of all Kingfrog, anybody that plays an arranger such as a T3, Korg Pa2XPRO, G-70/E-80 etc., on Stage - will most likely NEVER use the auto-accompaniment features when playing in the context of a 'Band' with other Band members. Again, I think the reason why no Big Name artists use an Arranger on Stage like the T3, etc. is #1: There is a stigma attached to arrangers (toys for children mentality) that will take some time to overcome and get rid of - before Big Names get comfortable on a Stage before hundreds or thousands of people with the likes of a T3, etc. >> In the case of T3, who would want to showcase the T3 Drum Kits before hundreds or thousands of people anyway with them being what they are and all? [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/confused.gif[/img] And #2: Once again we're talking sounds. The sounds in many cases are still lacking when comparing them to the lesser expensive PRO workstation keyboards on the market. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] Case in point >> Drum Kits on the T3 for one. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img] Or at least I suspect that they're inferior after listening to the online Demos from Yamaha.

The Gap is narrowing though for sure, and in some cases, like the Pa2XPRO with it's 76 keys and exellent to even superb sounds, there really is no gap at all in my opinion. And maybe the ONLY thing that will still lack on the T3 regarding the sounds will be the Drum Kits, who knows?? Although as far as features go the T3 has some catching up to do e.g. 76 keys, Real Sampler, Micro Editing of the sounds and styles, REAL Harmonizer.., etc. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img]

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"IF the Motif sounds better, buy one and a laptop with Band in the Box...."

Again, the idea is to have an all in one, all included solutuion - "NOT" two or more pieces of equipment that, apart from each other, are incomplete and/or inadequate.

And to have that "All In One" solution in an Arranger form factor. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/cool.gif[/img] That is the goal anyway. Korg seems to have already arrived with the Pa2XPRO and Roland WILL have arrived with its next 76 key PRO Arranger I'm guessing. Yamaha?? They need to take a few more laps around the track as punishment for not listening long ago to consumer's requests regarding their supposed PRO Arrangers. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/frown.gif[/img] And then make the necessary and needed corrections on their next totl model coming down the pipe in 3 or so years.

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 09-15-2008).]

Mike glad you finally found happiness with your KORG Pa2xpro...good choice for an all in one for your needs.

good luck

Not so fast Donny! I was just "discussing" what I thought about the Pa2XPRO and from what others have stated about it.

I really would like to have more than 120 notes of polyphony on my next totl arranger Donny. I understand the method Korg uses for polyphony allocation is a very good one, with users having less probability for note drop-outs compared to an inferior allocation method that are perhaps used by some of the other manufacturers.

I'm thinking I may just bide my time until the next wave of totl arrangers hit the market between now and 2011 before I purchase another one. I'm really hoping my next totl arranger will have AT LEAST "256" notes of polyphony onboard. I know, I know, that's BIG hoping, but it has got to happen sooner or later right? I can wait.

Hopefully it will happen SOONER rather than later.

Best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 09-15-2008).]

I wanted to mention that if Korg indeed hits a Grand Slam with its new OS coming out for the Pa2XPRO, I may change my mind and get one. Even if it does have less polyphony than my T1 had. But that new OS better be good...

Best,
Mike

On stage...in a group you are more than likely going to want a full PRO synth.

1) In your face sound to cut through the mix
2) FULL MIDI implementation
3) more than 61 keys (usually)
4) The arranger feature would just be in the way
5) PRO build because these baby's take a lot of ause
6) Support for the PRO instuments is superb
7) Just the way a PRO synth works suits the stage environment (patches, combies ect)

That sure doesn't mean it's not done, but not often.
That also does not mean there are not some great and even better in some cases sounds on an attanger than PRO board. But that's a small exception.

So why is the T1, T2, T3 PA, G-70 ect. more expensive..they sell a lot more PRO synthes than arrangers.

It's a shame...usually you can't even hear what te keyboard player is doing beacause of all the LOUD distotion guitars!

Lee

I've been using Roland arrangers on stage with bands for ten years or more. No-one, not a single band member, and not a single member of any audience has ever come up to me and ridiculed my use of an arranger... EVER

Since I got the G70, the only thing anyone ever does is come up to me and say 'what the hell are you using? It sounds AMAZING!'

This is all with full live bands, and some pretty picky ears. I have a Triton, I have a K2500, I have some older stuff too. I won't take them out on gigs any more... They are too hard to program on the fly, edit on the fly, store the edits on the fly, and the sounds just don't quite cut it.

Why do you think no-one criticizes it? Sure, my chops are OK, but I tend to put a lot of the credit on the way it is built and voiced. For starters, I never have to apologize about my piano parts (or sound) because I am trying to shoehorn them into a 61 size keyboard. An 88 is only a fraction better (you'd be amazed, in a band situation, how little you need the extra 12 notes - as a solo pianist, sure, but in a band, 76 is more than adequate).

I never have to apologize for the organ parts. The drawbars make grabbing JUST the right registration a snap, and the Leslie and chorus/vib is fine for live use. And the keyboard, once again, doesn't get in the way by snagging my hands on smears.

The horn parts are to die for (up to three different horn sounds and layers in one patch makes for a LOT of dynamic timbral variety), the strings are lush, the synth sounds are plentiful, I've virtually never been stumped for a patch to match a song, or meet a mood.

The effects are simple to call up, simple to adjust, and as powerful as you need for live. The OS is optimized for LIVE adjustment (which my K2500 and Triton are NOT), and the ability to change patches and whole setups on the fly without ugly cutoffs in the sounds and weird glitches in the effects is smooth, smooth, smooth. To be honest, few WS's can do that!

And it is all in one keyboard, and a darn good lookin' one at that!

So, the next time someone comes up to you and pooh poohs your arranger, ask them what was it that the HEARD? Maybe that might give you a clue as to whether they simply have an axe to grind, or a real comment...

Oh, and one last thing.

DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, EVER TURN ON THE ARRANGER SECTION!

Not in a live band situation. Just as you wouldn't want the singer to plonk down an iPod, and do a number (or just a few bars) with their TOTL, fully produced, amazing sounding karaoke track, while you sat around and twiddled your thumbs, no band member wants to listen to you demonstrate how you COULD do without them, thank you very much!

Maybe THAT's why they like my arranger so much, after all... They don't KNOW it's an arranger!

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 09-15-2008).]

Well, unless the sampling function is vastly improved, it won't matter anyway. That was exactly my thought Squeak. I was going to sample some of my better software drum sounds and load my T2 up. I got as far as sampling a small but rather complete kit. Unfortunately, I probably should have read the danged manual first. It was only then I realized I could only load 8 samples per user voice or per drumkit. That's right, 8 whole drum sounds per kit.. single layered of course, no multisample function in T2. Hmmm.. I kept saying to myself.. nahhh something is wrong, it's gotta be me, I'm not getting something here, but I looked deeper into it online and that's what it is. Let's see.. hmm a bass drum, a snare, a closed hh, open hh, maybe I'll skip the pedal hat.. now I have four left.. hmm how about a crash, a ride.. that leaves me 2 toms... How useless is that ? OK OK, I'll admit it.. there is GOOD news too. At least I'll never have to hear those danged hand claps again.. hehe

Now the sampling function on the ES is a bear to work with, but at least I can load either multisamples or as many individual samples per voice as the memory will hold.

By contrast, the Korg M3 lets me load several different formats easily and effortlessly. I talk about ( and use ) samples a good bit, but really, when I feel compelled to "roll my own", I'm working in the dark ages compared to those who really have it down to an art. I do dabble with Kontakt now and then, but the reality is, any time I'm trying to create something, and I can keep it simple and still get the desired results, I still use soundfonts more often than anything else. It's really the only format that I can say I have some expertise in using asnd creating in. The good news is that my M3 loads SF2 files effortlessly and also that the good ones sound great coming out of it.

To me, the sampling capability on the T2 is the equivalent of a modern day Casio SK1, great for making an oddball noise or two, not much else.

I can't answer why the T2 has the better SA voices, ( it's been said both here and at Motifator and I tend to agree ) but in my mind, I might reason that it's because the ES and XS are geraed toward modern music. I would venture a guess that in the modern genres that acoustic instruments, other than maybe pianos and a few others aren't the primary featured sounds being used, and that even when they are featured, it is rarely the goal of those who might use workstation produced .. let's say guitar sounds, for example, to fool the listener into believing they are hearing the real thing. In simpler words, I'm guessing it just isn't all that important to the majority of workstation users, much in the same way better acoustic and electronic drum kits aren't a major concern to the majority of Yamaha's targeted arranger market.

AJ



[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 09-15-2008).]

Sample loading times are 15 – 18 times faster with T3
USB 2 as standard
New sounds will be downloadable, just like you currently do with styles
And you certainly don’t need the drums off the Motif

Bill

Sorry, Bill, but the speed of the interface has nothing to do with how fast you can get data into the RAM...

Most current arranger samplers (and several WS's) can't even load it up at USB 1 theoretical speeds. There's a data pipeline that chokes it off LONG before it reaches the interface speed.

Only the computer based arrangers have anything close to the interface speed load-up.