The trick is, the hardware and sounds don't HAVE to be upgraded for a T3/G70?PA2Xpro to already sound impressive.

The MS, in the opinion of many here (based on hearing the factory demos), DOES...

I'll take 3-400MB of world class, carefully crafted, fine tuned sample ROM over 34GB of mismatched, second-class slung together stuff any day. An arranger is the gestalt of all it's parts. Sounds and styles and OS acting as one. A weakness in any one area (yet alone two) can bring it's usefulness OOTB crashing down, and force you to spend months of work and many thousands of dollars in VSTi's to fix the problem (if you have the considerable skill needed to fix the problem which few, IMO, do).

Most of us want to buy a car, not BUILD it... We are drivers, not engineers. Future expansion is a wonderful thing, but only if it comes built on a foundation of already acceptable performance, especially at THOSE prices. When you start out costing more than a T3, one expects it to ALREADY sound better than the poor 'closed' arranger, and then you build from there. Not have to build from the ground up just to attempt to equal the 'closed' system...

"They were sounds played on the Mediastation, its not like the sounds produced and played themselves. We don't know yet if the backing was a custom style the user created or if they were sequences done on the MS. Either way the sounds, drums, and files were played on the Mediastation.

Would you question the Tyros 3 if I sequenced music on it and used some custom samples or custom voices I created myself on the Tyros 3? I'll bet you wouldn't. The advantage the Mediastation has is the ability to utilize so many different sound sources that most arrangers lack. Why knock that technology rather than embrace it?"

There are so many problems with your logic Ensnare you but here is one that i am sure you will follow using my logic

The MS is marketed here as an arranger right ?

Which part of that demo was done using the aranger ? put another way , do you think any of those instruemts in the demo were following chords or were they do you think recorded linearly like a raditional sequenced peiece of music ? If the author tried to play the piece using minor chords or diminished chords like say .........AN ARANGER...would it sound any different ? COULD HE REPLAY THIS PIECE IN SECONDS USING DIFFERENT STYLES LIKE AN ARRANGER ???

Please escuse the shouting but i dont know how to point out to you and others the major problem with the MS Arranger Keyboard.

Noone is questioning the MS ability to play a VST. Thats what its designed for, if it couldnt do this NOONE would buy it.

But if you market this instrument to arranger players , what single most importnat function do you think it must do well, over and above its ability to simply facilitate other companies expensive VST's ???

When you've worked that out , then you and Dom and the Wersi contingent will understand why i cant justify purchasing this "technically potentially " ahead of the game synth/workstation.

Actually i cant wait for you to work it out because i fear that you simply wont see it :-) ITS STYLES, STYLES, EASE OF USE, STYLES, INTUITIVENESS, STYLES , USER FRIENDLINESS , OHHH AND GRET PROFESSIONAL STYLES. AND DID I MENTION STYLES ??? (thats english humor -dont be offended)

Thats why Dom is so far off the mark with the MS. He simply does not have the first clue what the aranger community wants in an arranger keyboard and your encouragement and others for him to continue to make empty and laughable boasts about this instrument being the best arranger is just so very very misplaced and misjudged. And i say that with genuine respect for you as an individual and a fellow musician.

Let me say just one more thing. ASk Dom what updates or technological upgrades has he done in the last year to make the ARRANGER FUNCTION better and then compare that to what he has done to make he PRO SYNTH/WORKSTATION better. This wil tell you who his instrument is geared towards. He is just trying to pick up some additional wild card purchases by sucking in some unsuspecting (gullible) arranger cutomers. I cant blame him. If people are using their ears and still want an MS as an arranger after the last 3-4 years big talk from Dom and poor demos then really they deserve to have every penny taken from them.

I admire doms determination and i genuinely wish him luck. He most certainly will need it to crack the arranger market with this product in its current form.




[This message has been edited by Spalding1 (edited 09-12-2008).]

"Spalding, for that matter, I don't use a single style that came with my Tyros 2 or Pa2x. Every style I use is preprogrammed using live electric drums, and it does not sound looped."

Hi Chony. I respect anyone that has a go creating their own styles. I have done a few myself, well more than a few actually.One thing i know is that to produce a good style that does not sound repetitive takes many hours work. For examle with my PA1X i can have up to four variations within one style. Plus two intros,two, fills and one break fill and two endings. I am sure you will understand the work that it takes to produce one full style. Then with the PA1X i can program additional variations, up to six i think) within each variation of the same style based upon the type of chord i am triggering, ie, major7th minor 7th, diminished chords, 6th chords etc. So that up to six subtle variations within each of the 4 major variations. Now thats a lot of potential work ! Now think about the numbers of styles i might need to cover the genres of music that i perform regularly, thats gospel, soul, funk, blues and jazz. How long would it take to program from scratch all those tyles to an acceptable standard ??? I hope you didnt buy the T2 without any intention to use the built in preprogrammed styles because thats not great value for your money.

The Mediastation is marketed as a workstation/arranger and its arranger capabilities exceed that of all except the Wersi. What many people on Synthzone don't understand is the power the Mediastation and the Wersi have to produce styles you can't realize on the likes of Yamaha, Korg, or Roland. It's a lack of forward thinking and understanding that cause confusion as to what can and can't be done with these types of instruments.

You ask if a style that sounds like the MS demo from Chony's friend can be created on the Mediastation and played live. Absolutely! Like Chony, myself, and a few other users on this forum, we don't use canned styles for our music we custom make them. Yes my friends, we actually create our own music, our own styles, and most often our own sounds. Sure it takes more time to create a custom style or sound but what's the point of creating ones own music if you can't even create your own style? The whole point is to be unique and make you sound like you, not every other guy who has the same instrument that you do.

If more people would actually utilize their instrument to its full potential rather than just be a button presser or "knob jockey", then there wouldn't be as many people here complaining about the capabilities of their instrument or lack thereof.

Actually I did. I don't perform Western music, so I bought the T2 for its sounds and features. Once in a while I'll use a Ballad or Polka from the T2. The truth is in my studio I use everything from Jazz to country to funk. But for wedding performances, it's all my own...

Chony

Actually, yes I would... If I heard a style or sound that was outstanding, and hadn't heard any factory demo that showed off that style or sound, you bet I would be curious about where that came from!

That's the problem in a nutshell. The MS factory demos are so lackluster that when you DO hear something good, you are immediately cautious about what was used to make it. We are already painfully aware that you can use VSTi's on the MS, and the sky's the limit to what you can do with those. And so is the budget! A world class piano VSTi, about $300, a world class drum VSTi, about $400, a world class symphonic library, anywhere from $1000 up to $5000+, and so on, and so forth.

Load the MS up with sounds that hands down beat a T3 OOTB or a PA2Xpro/G70, etc., and you could easily double the price of the hardware. But from listening to the factory demos, the impression that everyone tends to get is that, without those expensive extras, you are quite hard pressed to find anything that even equals the T3 OOTB...

Look, here's an analogy for you....

Dom has a Corvette. A VERY fast, great handling, easy to drive sports car, very reasonably priced compared to most super-cars, built by a proven major manufacturer. NOT a exotic kit car from an unproven manufacturer, at three times the price that, until you put a LOT more money into it, and install everything yourself (IF you have the skill as a great mechanic), can't even perform as well as the Corvette.

Don is a practical man when it comes to sports cars (and he comes from the land of Ferrari and Lamborghini!), a man that realizes he neither has the money or the mechanic skills to put together a car himself that out-drives the Corvette.

Sadly, he doesn't understand that most of us arranger players feel exactly the same way about arrangers. We'd rather have something that was a great drive OOTB, than put together a kit car that MIGHT (with time and skill and luck and LOTS more money) go a bit faster. Especially as the Corvette's of arrangers go pretty much fast enough for us already!

Does that get through...?

Diki,

Actually your point doesn't get through because there's one thing you are missing and just seem to overlook even though I've reiterated it time and time again. OOTB the Mediastation has some fantastic sounds and it DOES NOT require the user to buy additional VST's or sample libraries for it to compete with other instruments. The VST and Sample load and play functions are but icing on the cake. Once you realize that then you'll get the point. The Wersi is the same way except Wersi's factory sounds are better than most every arrangers as they should be. With nearly 1 GB of factory sounds they'd better be good otherwise Wersi spent all that time developing sounds for nothing.

I realize that Lionstracs factory demo's are weak and only a few showcase the MS's sound capabilities. On the other hand having personally heard and played the Mediastation I know exactly what its capabilities are and they far exceed what you and others believe them to be. Perhaps in time you'll see and hear the true sound of the instrument but for now many people seem to be content bashing the Mediastation without ever having played one.

To be honest, even from user demos I can get a pretty accurate impression of the T2/G70, etc..

Trouble is, almost NONE of the MS users (just how many of them are out there by now?) seem either willing or capable of showing this apparent 'fact'. Somehow, we HAVE to take them at their word, because no-one appears willing to SHOW US....

'Perhaps in time' is entirely up to YOU (all you MS owners). We can wait forever (and, of course, the longer that wait is, the fishier it all smells), but without a solid base of user OOTB demos, it is unreasonable to expect anyone to take such an opinion based on anecdote alone.

Personally, I wouldn't trust ANYONE'S opinion about any of the main TOTL arrangers. This isn't me just ganging up on the MS. If virtually NO T2 owners were willing to provide an OOTB demo or three, without actually playing the instrument I would be unwilling to accept just their WORD, either. Especially if, firstly, the factory demos sucked, and I had to cross a continent to get to sit at one!

But that is not a problem with them... No-one seems shy about posting a plethora of user recordings. And the factory demos show that they are capable of making music close (within their skill level) to the level of the factory demos. So, when a T2 owner goes 'trust me, this thing sounds great!', truth is, I don't HAVE TO....

I may not have PLAYED an MS (who can, over here?) but I sure have listened to them a lot (just about everything out there). So far, it's not enough to engender the 'trust' you seem so desperately to need. For as little effort as it should surely take (I made and posted an OOTB demo of my G70 in fifteen minutes, one time), why not PROVE it to us instead of constantly begging for 'faith'.

Even Jesus raised the dead, once! He didn't simply say 'well, I COULD have done that IF I had wanted to', and left it at that Even faith needs a little help, now and again...

"You ask if a style that sounds like the MS demo from Chony's friend can be created on the Mediastation and played live. Absolutely! Like Chony, myself, AND A FEW OTHER USERS ON THIS FORUM, we don't use canned styles for our music we custom make them. Yes my friends, WE ACTUALLY CREATE OUR OWN MUSIC,OUR OWN STYLES, AND MOST OFTEN OUR OWN SOUNDS . Sure it takes MORE TIME TO CREATE A CUSTOM STYLE OR SOUND BUT WHAT'S THE POINT OF CREATING ONES OWN MUSIC IF YOU CANT EVEN CREATE YOUR OWN STYLE ? The whole point is to be unique and make you sound like you, not every other guy who has the same instrument that you do."

I hope you re-read your post again Ensnare you and you will see the glaring hole in your logic and apparentlY Doms. For clarity i have put in capitals the relevant sections.

but to make absolutely clear that you dont miss it

1. You and a few friends that create your own styles are NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF USERS OF ARRANGERS IN THE ARRANGER MARKET

2. Most arranger players dont have the time or the inclination to make their own sounds or styles, or the skill for that matter.(it is a greater skill than just playing a keyboard well)
3. Your last qoute is the clincher "WHAT'S THE POINT OF CREATING ONES OWN MUSIC IF YOU CANT EVEN CREATE YOUR OWN STYLE ?

Tens of thousands of units of arranger keyboards have been sold world wide to people who are not able or have no intersts or time to create heir own styles....and yet they buy arranger keyboards over a traditional synthworkstation. Here's a tip for both you and Dom.......

Why dont you ASK THEM WHY THEY BOUGHT THE ARRANGER THAT THEY BOUGHT RATHER THAN TELL THEM WHAT THEY SHOULD BUY ?

Its called marketing. Ask Dom to go look the word up.....its been fun debating with you :-)



[This message has been edited by Spalding1 (edited 09-12-2008).]

OK, now Ensnareyou will come back and say don't knock it till you try it, and Diki will say I don't have to try it to know, and Ensnareyou will say Don't knock it till you try it, and Diki will say I don't have to try it to know, and ensareyou will say don't knock it till you try it, and Diki will say I don't have to try it to know.....