Something so few take into account when talking about drum 'punch' and the like is the vast difference between those that simply play their arranger at home (or even on a gig) relatively quietly, all by itself, and those that sing extensively on top, or have other musicians playing with them and try to rock the house!

Once you ADD in several extra musical elements to the style; a couple of singers, maybe a guitarist, and a competent, full two handed approach to actually PLAYING the arranger (rather than just letting it do it's thing and playing at most a one note melody on top), what at first seems like an adequate drum tone and timbre can rapidly disappear into this expanded mix.

One of the features I would LOVE to see on arrangers (but haven't yet) is a GLOBAL part boost. So, if your sequences and styles are nicely balanced for a polite, background level, and you get into a situation where they are starting to get swamped, especially drums (often the first thing to disappear), there is a global setting that would boost the drum part (or any other you select) and add a specified amount to it to get it back in the mix.

I know you can do this on-the-fly, but having a 'set and forget' would make life a LOT easier...

This would work the other way around, too, if your party mix styles are a bit brash for a cocktail crowd.

What do you think?

Roland already has this ....but you knew that Diki

No it doesn't... (you DIDN'T know that, Donny? )

You can change the volume of the drum part for ONE registration, or ONE SMF, but change registrations (I do the 'one song - one registration' system) and it goes to the registration settings, requiring you to re-up the drums. Or call up another SMF and it reverts to the stored volumes.

I'm talking about a GLOBAL addition, regardless of whether you change UPG's or not...

Korg pa2x has this feature. You can change the balance of the drum, bass, and accompaniment parts on the fly, and it will stay in position even through style and performance changes.

I would hope that Yamaha's T3 assignable fader could do this, but knowing Yamaha, it won't.

Chony

Don’t assign the drum volume to a preset, just set it manually for the show. (Or have different global setup presets for different venues, and select the appropriate one as required)

Bill

Maybe one generic volume for all your styles and sequences is good enough for you, Bill, but in my case, each and every song has an entire registration devoted to it, that calls up the entire state of the instrument with one screen tap.

Sounds, effects, splits, controller assignments, Part mutes, links to SMF's, links to lyrics displays, the total thing I need for each and every song (I don't believe in a bunch of button pushing while you are trying to play and entertain) are all stored in each UPG. And there is no way to add a GLOBAL offset to every UPG I call up just for one Part.

I know a lot of the old time arranger users still use the 'free panel' system, because that's what they got used to. But Roland's have always had the ability to store the entire setup per Registration, and that's what I'm comfortable with (and need, to be honest).

How does that Korg offset system work? Do you have to specify an absolute value for the drum track's volume (and how does it know which tracks are drum tracks in sequencer mode?), or can you say 'take all the drum tracks and add 15 to their value' (which is what I would need)?

Diki,

If you are doing this with registrations, and each song is different, then a global effects to the drum kits would be out of the question I would think.

Pretty easy to do, though, with any keyboard using registrations for each song. It's just a matter of setting the EQs, etc.. for the drum kit for that particular song, then save the information into the registrations. If the next song on your list uses the same drum settings, no problem. If the settings need to be modified, make the changes then save them to that registration.

I doubt that anyone would have more than a dozen or two drum settings they would utilize, nearly all of which would apply to a huge number of songs. It would be a fairly simple task to set up a series of style files with highly tuned drums, rename them by adding a number to designate the settings you use, then select from those style files when you create the registrations. Then, when global EQ changes are necessary for a particular venue configuration, they can be selected without having a dramatic impact on your tuned registrations. In doing this, you can get as much, or as little punch out of the drums that you want.

Cheers,

Gary

Not sure why this would be a problem...

A simple 'add 15 to the drum tracks after the registration loads' seems easy enough. It's how the Makeup Tools already works (offsets to existing values) but that only does it on a per style or SMF basis, and is stored with the style or preset. I would prefer it as a global option.

I know I could program alternative UPG's, styles and sounds, but I'm not anxious to have to duplicate my entire songlist, and fill up my HD with edited pumped up versions, when a simple offset command could do the job!

I'm not really talking about global EQ's (although EQ offsets WOULD be nice, as well ) but simply a volume command (my drums are already punchy enough, thank you very much!) to bring them up in the mix. Right now, when needed, I am doing this by hand, and yes, it ain't all THAT hard to do on the fly (one button push and move a slider), but I'm lazy! Usually, when this is needed, it's needed for EVERYTHING.

A global offset would make it easy to just play and perform, and let the machine do the offset...

This is what I dreamed of for years....a separate output for each of the major parts in the drum kit (bass, snare, cymbals, hi-hat, ALL latin instruments, etc). And then run each line out into a (dedicated) mixer channel. Sure there'd be 20-30 cables coming out, but look at the command you'd have on tweaking each part...tone, volume, reverb....and the best effect of all...."panning"...each part into one of a setup of multiple speakers for a great "wall of sound!"

Of course, there'd be no market for something like this (outside of me) because most players don't tweak ANYTHING on their keyboards...not even "fills."

Hmmmmmmm?.......re-look at that picture of the audience at Pakefiled 2008 & then look at what you want to do with the drums "Wall of Sound".....something tells me its not going to be embraced anytime soon.

With that audience I'd use the "onboard" speakers!

I was thinking about doing a huge stage show using one of the super-arrangers. I sing also and communicate well with an audience.

Then again.....I've been thinking about doing it for about 30 years now, so at this point I don't think it's going to happen in this lifetime.

So much for my "wall of sound" too. I'll leave that to Evel Knievel...motorcycle stunt man extroadinaire!

Roland has it. See the E80 feature:
http://www.rolandkeyboardclub.com/upload_area/os_updater/14_06/E-80_Addendum%20190407_6l.pdf

Greetings
Peter

Still not sure what you’re after here.
If you have every setting in a preset, (Most users operate like that) for each song, then all you have to do when choosing that song (Preset) is move the drum slider up/down. (Hardly any extra work as you wouldn’t be playing at the time)

Bill

As I said, I'm a bit lazy (plus I use registration changes DURING songs to change my keyboard setups, sometimes, or at least go back to the initial setup after a change during the song). I guess I would like to not HAVE to do it for every single registration, every single time I change them, for a whole evening!

It's obviously not the most pressing need, but it might be nice...

And sorry, but the E80 feature simply adds a bass boost to the kick drum and bass part. Not quite what I'm after (although it's handy as you turn down for that 'loudness button' effect), which is an overall rise of the whole drum part...

Perhaps some of you don't play with live players much, but trust me... add a guitarist or two, maybe a horn player as well, and your carefully crafted mix will rapidly disappear as the drums get swamped...

Could you have the drums come out of the 3 and 4 outputs (I can't remember what they call these on Yamahas) - that is, have the drums come out of the extra set of output jacks, then have a little mixer - and you can make the drums any volume - and leave 'em that way ... for your show?

This is something I did with my Technics KN-7000: I had drums and bass come out of outs 3 and 4, and the rest of the keyboard out of 1 and 2. Then I could turn up (or down) my "rhythm section" (drums + bass) very easily if I sensed they needed a tweak in a given hall, with the band crankin', etc.

I think you can do this on Tyros as well ... it does however require a couple of extra cables plus a small mixer ... but give some nice real-time, live flexibility

No... on pretty much most arrangers, anything sent to auxiliary outputs loses all it's effects. You can't add reverb at the mixer, because then it becomes one global amount added to the entire kit, washing the kick with too much, or missing the percussion with too little, etc..

And I run stereo, before you say pan the kick to one side and the rest to the other!

As far as I can see, adding a global offset to a particular part doesn't seem to be an insurmountable technical challenge. It just remains to be seen if the demand for the feature is great enough for anyone (particularly Yamaha ) to add it...

It might, at least, go a long way towards making the 'no punch' Yamaha critics have an easy solution (or at least, partial solution) to the problem...

I think Ketron came up with the best solution for drums. Sample real players and real drums and sync to the rest of the style.
It was easy to do because drums do not have to follow chord progressions...

I am a little biased with this remark, since I am a former demo guy and did a dvd for Ketron, but it is one of the reasons I have always enjoyed my SD1 & SD1plus.

"Live Drums"...

Still doesn't address when you sometimes want them a bit louder than normal.

I think the Roland drums are also very 'live' sounding, but at least you can edit those, and use the kits to create new rhythms.

A loop is a loop is a loop. Better HAVE to love it, because you can't do a darn thing to it if you don't

You can edit.. Each and every drum part ..and instantly save your setting without going to a registration.

All drum parts on all 307 styles can be tweaked & changed & saved, without losing the original setting.

Ketron even stored every sound and every style as a master folder on the 6 gig harddrive, in case you ever have to or want to reload original settings.

I am happy you like your roland drums.

I don't own one anymore, BUT the Korg has 5 (or mebbe 6) different drum maps available on any style, so at the touch of a button you can change the entire drum map.

Now this is the part I cannot remember fully, BUT I think you can set an assignable switch, or a footswitch to change the drum map on the fly??? although I really cannot remember, I used to just change a drum map and save it to a user slot, without worrying about changing it live.

So, you could setup 2 drum maps (editable) for a style..1 being the normal and the 2 being the same kit, but with all the velocities upped by say 8 or 10...

Dennis

What can you do to the loop drums? The 'Live Drums', that is?

And, I guess the thought of having to edit over three hundred styles and store them (and all your SMFs too) is exactly why I think a simple global part offset is SUCH a good idea!

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 09-18-2008).]

You don't have to edit anything if you don't feel the need to.

I personally like the ability to store stuff on my harddrive. If I edit a midi file , I do it during play back from the harddrive..
Make my edits and save it.

I'm out for the rest of the night ... Talk with you Friday.

Yep, I guess you're lazy, therefore, why bother to make registrations in the first place. Just send me a signed, blank check and I'll be more than happy to make them for you--I'm not lazy! And, if there's enough in the account I can buy that new 47-foot Morgan Out-Island.

Gary

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Travlin' Easy

You guys missed my point. I wanted an output for EACH major instrument in the drum kit. Then I was going to use a series of small speakers to pan each rhythm sound so that it appeared like many sounds coming from different directions but in the same floor space a drummer would take up. And I could tweak it LIVE...not pre-programmed.

On the keyboard, I was going to pan the instruments also (ex: brass section on left, piano on right, strings on ALL speakers multiple patches detuned for a full effect, etc).

With today's technology, it can be done quite easily. Maybe AJ can still incorporate it into the Audya?

Lucky

If you want to pan parts out of left and right outputs (SD1 has separate 4 outputs) drums (individual or global) or any part of a style or midi sequence, that can already be done with all Ketron products.

If your taking about incorporating a "patch bay" type out put, than there is only a few companys I can think of that give you that ability... Akai MPC or Kurzweil K series worksations.

You mean like having the possibility to raise/lower the volume of one or more tracks (MIDI channels) and then LOCK those settings in permanently until you UNLOCK the mixer settings? Yeah, that would be cool. Good thing Generalmusic has had this feature for, oh, the past 10+ years.

No I am not back with GEM and I am certainly not here to promote their products, but I'm just sayin'...

lol,

Dave

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Wm. David McMahan
LearnMyKeyboard
JazzItUp Band

Dave... I'm with you brother.. GEM was always ahead of the curve when it came to features. Score Scroll - Lyrics display-Wav sync.. GEM had it all, way before many manufacturers.

Gary, I've ALREADY made all the registrations. Thousands of them. They work great for foreground solo and duo work. But add in a couple of extra players (you DID read that part, didn't you?) and the drums can often get swamped.

What I have been talking about is an easy way to boost the drums on ALL of them with a single command. NOT go back and edit every one of them to be louder and store THEM as well! I might want a set that the drums are a bit QUIETER as well (for those background dinner sets I seldom do). Have I got to sit down and edit every single registration I've got for that AS WELL?

I'm not sure if you are just trying to score points for the sake of it, or what it is you are doing, but if someone suggests a way to save a LOT of time, effort and HD space with a simple feature, how is it of any benefit to go 'just do it the way it already is'?

I'm ALREADY doing it the way it is! I want a BETTER way!

That way, I WOULD have time to go out on my friend's 50' Catalina! (OPB... the best type of yacht!)