Gang-

1) Physically, this is basically a stomp pedal and its been built accordingly. I hope to use this on the top of my Tyros 2. I'm used to using my Digitech vr, that sits on top of my boxamp. I like being able to drop a harmony that way. Through the presets, I'm sure I can do the same if its on the floor, however...

2) Hookup is virtually the same as it was for my Digitechs...

3) Power supply is quite different...For the Digitech, its required input 120V ~ 60hz, 18w, output 9v~1.3A - for the TCH, its rated at 100-240V 50-60 hz, .25A output 12v --.4A, 4.8W

(Honestly not sure what all that means, but my hunch is it needs less juice than the Digitech does to run.)

4) Doesn't seem to have an on/off switch...which I don't like.

4b) No LED Readout of what chord it perceives you as playing, which is a nice feature on the Digitechs...

5) Levels for lead vocal (input)FX, and harmony are easily adjusted, no "modes" to cycle through like on the Digitechs (DG). It has separate knobs for each. They also feel sturdier than those on the DG.

6) The unit is easy to view under normal room lighting...not so much under dark stage lighting. The lights are fine, but you can't read the different settings on the unit. Over time, most users will memorize what's where, I think..

7) In terms of non harmonic vocal processing, its quickly impressed me. When using the "tone" button, the output combines a very nice mix of EQ, compression and de-essing. If the tone button is not engaged, it sounded pretty typical...

There is a sizzle to the output that I love...

8) Harmony wise...they give you 5 different presets (combos of 1 or 2 voices above, below or mixed...) There is a max of 2 additional voices for your lead vocal...You can create other combos and save them if you wish...the process is quite easy...

9) Harmony generation / playing keyboard. (In normal, not manual mode) Early impressions are NOT good. If I'm playing the most basic of chords...(I mean basic - Root, 3rd, 5th) then it works nicely. Introduce a 7th, or god forbid a 9th and it goes sideways...fast.

Ex. Tennessee Waltz: Entering the chorus, hinging from a G7 ("Well, I rem-") to the C It wobbles unless I play a Gsus, which isn't my preference there. (I like the tension of singing the C against the G7 for the release into the first C chord of the chorus.)It fights me, and unless I change how I sing my lead, its odd. Further, in the chorus, moving from the C to the E7, because I'm singing the 7th tone (a "D") within the E7 chord, it again produces really odd sounding harmonies.

I do of lot of texture in my chording. I'm always adding 2nds, 6ths, maj 7ths, 9ths, etc...and I'm used to my Digitech following me wherever and exactly where I go.

Now that said, switch out of the normal harmony mode and go into manual mode, you basically have a vocoder that WILL follow you precisely.

In manual mode, you seem stuck with 4 voices, which isn't always what I want...

So...

*Sound quality is awesome...
*Usability is good, not great (at least not yet...
*Harmony production in default mode at times is awesome, at times perplexing to say the least...
*Harmony production in Manual mode is good, except being stuck with 4 voices...

...I will work with it for the next few days and see where I am then. Its certainly possible that the issues I detailed above are my fault, but the owner's manual isn't the most detailed thing.

...Its possible I'll return it...

...I don't want this to sound wrong, but I'm not sure this is for advanced players. The Digitech rack units I've used, old as they are, don't blink when I add 2nds, 6th, 9ths...This one does and that could be a deal breaker.

...Real interested in Donny's thoughts and any others from current users...

Cheers,

------------------
Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 09-24-2008).]

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 09-24-2008).]

Bill,

I agree with everything you said. I really love the sounds it produces in basic chords, and yes, it does seem to have some quirks, but overall, it does an outstanding job.

Gary

So, are you using it instead of the Digitech?

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Bill in Dayton

I've only used it on a couple jobs so far, mainly because I'm still in the process of modifying my console to hold the Harmony-M in a permanent position and keep everything plugged in. I hope to have that job done in the next few weeks, then I'll be using it on a routine basis.

One thing I forgot to mention. There is a slight delay when changing from one chord to another, probably somewhere between a quarter and half-second, which can be a bit perplexing, especially when using quick transition chords during a song. I suspect this has something to do with the TC's processor speed, which is not very fast. The VR's processor speed and ability to recognize all chords is much better. And, as you stated, it's nice to see the VR's display of the chord.

Cheers,

Gary

Yeah, that was one of the problems that is kind of disheartening with the HarmonyM. I did a little research online and found that a big negative from HarmonyM users was that sometimes it doesn't "track" right, such as when introducing chords that the HarmonyM apparently can't interpret and handle correctly and throws the harmony out of whack.

I'm glad I didn't rush out right away and get one. If others are satisfied with it that's great. But if I plunck down $300 for a product I expect it to work "correctly" - not just some of the time or most of the time but ALL of the time. Call me finicky if you want but I call it being practical. NEXT! Other products on the near horizon will hopefully be soon forthcoming. Something that won't cost an arm and a leg would be nice too. Not that the HarmonyM does of course. But it seems the only way to get an acceptable VH sound you need to go with the high-end TC-Helicon or the Eventide products. OTOH, Digitech didn't impress me at all with its latest Vocalist Live Pro. Maybe some of Digitech's other products would be more suitable to me perhaps.

Best,
Mike

As we speak I am setting up my complete rig in the house and testing the Harmony M for testing...more l8tr on that....
But reading these reviews so far to indicate that for different styles of playing eg: full keyboard mode versus triads, one finger etc, etc, ...would definitly give different experiences for each, now link that to playing level, timing in chord changes, and vocal singing style can ALL effect the way the Vocalizer works......& lets remember all gear has its limits & sometimes work-arounds are required & bottom line if someone is not happy or comfortable with a unit just move on return and try something else. All I can say at this early point is Build quality is excellent & it seems to have enough features for my needs in VH at this point...I will chime in later today after I play it for a while.

Ok.... Preliminary report from me, after using it 30 minutes is WOW!!!!! I hooked it up Easily...set midi channel transmit & other settings on Tyros...setup the Harmony M features to my liking, low/high voices,tone button, and started playing and singing....it really sounds fantastic.I'm using an external pedal for on/off & there is no glitches at all. The voice tracking is perfect & way above the quality of the Tyros VH (which to me is useless)...I'll use it on stage on tonight's gig for a real live checkout and see what happens through my sound system.
But as of now the TC Harmony M is Definitely a KEEPER in my rig!

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-24-2008).]

Donny,

I was pretty sure you would like what you heard.

Gary

How can the voice tracking be perfect for Donny and goofy for the rest of us?



------------------
Bill in Dayton

Bill.....it has to be the way your triggering your chords..... full fingered? Complicated chords have to relate to the harmonies while singing also, & maybe there is a conflict there? is the Harmony M set up properly? what are your settings? lets get to the bottom of this. Gary helped me set it up maybe we can dissect the problem.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-24-2008).]

Hey Donnie-

I always use the "Full keyboard" mode on my tyros 2...

I've made no special adjustments to the TC...As I said, it seems to generally follow me, but if I use a flat 9th, or a 2nd, 6th, etc...it goes real weird...

Comments?

------------------
Bill in Dayton

Bill,

I'll be back in the office on Friday evening. You can give me a call after 5 p.m. EST and I might be able to help. If you no longer have my phone number, email me yours at travlin_easy@copper.net and I'll be happy to call you.

Gary

Gary

And then if Gary gets Bill's HarmonyM working up to snuff could either Bill or you Gary post the results either here or on another thread topic?

Also, if Donny would like to share his HarmonyM settings with everybody it would go a long way in sorting this out too in my opinion.

Best,
Mike

I've also posted a question regarding chord tracking to the good folks at TC Helicon as well...

Any info recieved will be passed on, of course...

------------------
Bill in Dayton

I'll be glad to Mike. I will be talking with Bill sometime over the weekend.

Here are some tips and some the basic settings I use:

First, I'm using the PSR-3000 with the Harmony-M. The keyboard's MIDi setup is set to Keyboard & Style. Additionally, it's important to remember to turn off the keyboard's vocal harmony and effects before firing up the TC.

Next, you must tell the TC which MIDI channel you are transmitting on. This is done by holding down both the A/B and On buttons at the same time until they begin to blink. Then release the buttons and play a "C" chord on your keyboard. The TC will find the MIDI transmit channel automatically in this mode. To exit the setup mode, press the A/B and On buttons again, release them and the TC should return to the normal mode.

For my voice, which is quite low and somewhat soft, I find the High and Higher harmony settings work best. This, of course will vary with your voice quality and tone. Additionally, it's important to note that you must use voice control to some degree to obtain the best results. If you have the tendency to sing very loudly into a mic you can easily overdrive any vocal harmony system--including the high price spread.

For vocal effects I prefer Hall, but again this will vary with individual voice preferences and quality.

I set the Input, FX and Harmony knobs at the 12 O'clock position, and the Humanize control at the 9 O'clock position. For the Tone setting I use #2, which adds some softness and depth to your voice

I activate the Double feature, which tends to make your lead voice sound a bit thicker or fatter, while at the same time not overwhelming--good feature.

I set the TC for a Mono output, then fired the mono out into the keyboard's Line/Mic in. (Make sure the tiny switch on the back of the keyboard is set to Line. If it is set to mic you will encounter distortion.)

Hope this helps,


Gary

Gary great tips.... after setting up the Midi channels as per Gary's instructions for Trans/Rec, FX Hall at 2 O'clock, Doubler Off, Humanize 12 O'clock, Tone Button setting # 1, Volume 10 O'clock (watch the gain light dont turn red), set the unit to MONO (push voice 1 & 2 together),& I basically use High/Higher for my Harmonies most times, then set PRESET so it turns on that way every time & it always stays there,......I Velcro the Unit into my utility box with the rest of my gear hookups, all wires harnessed together for hookup & use an external switch pedal to turn it On/Off...other then that I really love this little Wonder!!!



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-25-2008).]

Update:........

I used it last night full bore on a 4 hour gig with the Tyros & give it Two Thumbs Up from me.....for My needs I'll never be tied down to a "On-board" VH unit again using any keyboard, although there is a few models that have quality VH inside......but this versatile little unit is just what the doctor ordered. I recomend it for sure.

Enjoy



------------------
------------
Donny

How are you dealing with issue #9?

"9) Harmony generation / playing keyboard. (In normal, not manual mode) Early impressions are NOT good. If I'm playing the most basic of chords...(I mean basic - Root, 3rd, 5th) then it works nicely. Introduce a 7th, or god forbid a 9th and it goes sideways...fast."

Do you ONLY play basic triads?

Diki,

I didn't encounter a problem with 7ths, 9ths or diminished chords. #9 may have something to do with the keyboard's midi setup. Should know in a couple days.

Gary

Did Misty Blue last night. I turned on two voices just to try it (I normally use only one harmony voice). No glitches on aug or dim.
DonM

Did Misty Blue last night. I turned on two voices just to try it (I normally use only one harmony voice). No glitches on aug or dim.
DonM

I wonder what Bill in Dayton is doing wrong then?? If others aren't having any problems with the more complex chords then it seems to me Bill has his set up wrong somewhere.

Well sir,.. my interest in the HarmonyM is picking up again, since it seems to be an isolated incidence with Bill's unit.

Thanks for posting your settings Gary! When and if you and Bill get his figured out please let us know what it was that was causing the problem. I hate to think that Bill's unit is somehow defective but that could be the case possibly. Hopefully you two can get it figured out though.

Best,
Mike

Follwed Gary's instruction to a T and still not getting acceptable results in normal mode...

NOTE: In manual mode or vocoder mode, everything tracks great, but you've got that vocoder sound, which isn't what I'm usually looking for...

Here's two examples. If someone else could try these and report back, I'd appreciate it...

#1) Tennessee Waltz...using preset #1...going into the chorus...Playing a C to an E7...sing the lead vocal as normal w/harmonies and tell me if what you hear on the word "night" isn't goofy as shit...

#2) Kansas City...preset 1...There's a kind of call-response thing throughout the verse...(In C) Lead-"Well, I'm going to Kansas City, kansas city hear I come..." then the response, "Kansas city, oh...kansas city" in harmony.

Musically, I'm playing a C in the bass and a c chord (c-e-g) to a f chord (c-f-a) to a c7 without the E (c-f-Bb) then down again...

This is a basic, and I mean basic blues keyboard riff. For the harmony to work, I have to switch to a Bb chord which changes the whole feel of it...

I like everything about this, but if it doesn't follow me...How many songs am I going to have to "dumb down" so it'll sound ok?

I am nothing special when it comes to playing keyboard, trust me. I know chords very wells, and I've been told I have a nice feel...but technically, I can't touch most of you guys...its like I have mittens on, maybe...

I'm off Sunday and Monday...maybe I'll set up everything and post an mp3 of this weirdness for everyone else to hear...

so close, yet so far...

Thanks as usual, gang!

------------------
Bill in Dayton

[This message has been edited by Bill in Dayton (edited 09-27-2008).]

If you are playing the C7 as C-F-Bb, then it may be reading/playing an Fsus4...it does on my S900 when in "fingered" mode...perhaps leaving the 3rd out(and the 5th) and subbing in the 4th(the F) is confusing the unit.

Just a thought.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 09-27-2008).]

"Musically, I'm playing a C in the bass and a c chord (c-e-g) to a f chord (c-f-a) to a c7 without the E (c-f-Bb) then down again..."

Ian...

The chord you mentioned was a typo...

The actual notes are (c-g-Bb)...

Ideas?

------------------
Bill in Dayton

I'm not familiar with the harmonizer, Bill, but maybe it needs the 3rd (the E) in the chord to recognize the harmony.

You are using the 3rd in the other chords.

Maybe try C-E-Bb, or C-E-G-Bb.

Are you using Bass Inversion or Fingered On Bass by any chance?(I'm not sure if that would make a difference...again, I don't know the unit)

Ian

I use full keyboard mode on my tyros 2...

In terms of proper chord tracking, I think its mostly related to the mode of harmony I'm using. If the harmony was messed up across the board, even in vocoder or manual mode, then I'd suspect the midi transfer was not right. But, everything is perfect in vocoder mode, so the data is getting shared properly. Surely this unit doesn't require...and certainly doesn't mention in the operating manual...a different set up for normal mode.

I'd always thought the TC Helicon line was the gold standard for harmony processors but I'm real concerned that perhaps all the TC line generates harmonies this way, which is different than Digitech handles it. What's to say I upgrade to a Voice works plus or something and still find the quirky harmony output?

Disappointing, at least so far...

Still hope to post an mp3 of the two examples I cited earlier...

------------------
Bill in Dayton

Bill......dont just blame the VH unit it only works right when you sing properly into the Mic also. It's a delicate blend of Vocals & chord playing no matter what unit your using. Look forward to you vocal demo soon.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 09-28-2008).]

Bill,

I've been trying to duplicate your problem and may have stumbled onto it. You posted that you use the Full fingering mode. In order to utilize this feature, plus send the correct midi signal to the VH you must change your split point to the rightmost key of the keyboard. If the split point remains at the normal location, parts of the information will not be transmitted if some of the chord is above the split point.

I'll be home the remainder of the day if you wish to call. Tomorrow's weather looks good with moderate winds, so I will likely go sailing.

Hope this helps,

Gary

Well, when the unit hiccups with the melody, what's left?

Are you suggesting I rewrite the melody to Tennessee Waltz?

Yard work is now completed...quick lunch then into the abyss that is known as the TC Hell



------------------
Bill in Dayton

I also set the keyboard's midi out information at All Parts, which in the full fingering mode really causes problems. The same problems, however, were also duplicated using the Digitech VR. The difference being that you can see the problem on the VRs display, whereas the TC does not have this particular feature.

Essentially, the midi information transmitted is merely a wrong chord because of the fingering mode selected and the playing technique. At least, that's how it appears to me.

The workaround for this turns out to be in making sure that your right hand is at least an octave above the chords played with your left hand. If your right hand drops down into the range of the left hand's octave chord range, then it will trigger erroneous midi chord information, despite the fact that you cannot hear any changes in the chord itself. The only reason I was not encountering the same problem is because I play using the Multi-Finger fingering mode, therefore, I'm never using my right hand below the split point.

Seems like the TC is only doing what it is told to do by the keyboard.

Hope this helps,

Gary

First off, let me thank Gary D for his time this afternoon...I really enjoyed & appreciated it...

Every talk I have with Gary is like a clinic of some sorts, lol...

Ok, to the matter of the TC Helicon weird harmonies...

It has to do with how I play the Tyros 2...From what Gary thinks, not too many guys play it in full keyboard and chord with the right hand and do bass lines with the left. Defining the split point is problematic and then not crossing those boundaries and sending odd info to the TC proves fatal...

I guess most guys chord with their left hand, below the split point, which works well...

So, for me, I'll be sticking with the Digitech Vocalist and VR, which fit me like a glove.

There were many things I loved about the TC, but this mis match of functionality is a deal breaker...

Also, the literature provided by TC Helicon should have a more in depth section on this topic...

Back she goes!!!!

------------------
Bill in Dayton

1- Have you tried triggering the harmonies with the Right hand like Uncle Dave does works great for him?

2- If the VR worked so well, why did you buy a TC?

Donny,

It's a combination of factors that caused Bill's problem. Consequently, just triggering with the right hand wouldn't provide the solution, especially when playing left hand base and occasionally drifting over the split point line.

I always enjoy talking with Bill. He is a very talented player and excellent performer.

Cheers,

Gary

Well Gary we all play differently & certain gear works better then others for each of our styles of play .....at least he tried it, just wasn't in the cards for him but is the Bees Knees for many others..

Carry On

Hmmm I play predominantly in full keyboard mode and I would just like to add that I have no issues with the TC unit at all.

Harmonies are all as they should be.

You did know that you can set a keyrange on the TC unit so that it ignores all notes above/below a certain point? (page 21 of the manual).

This split point can be different to the one you use on the keyboard.

I have no split point setup at all on my keyboard only on the harmony m so that it ignores that part of the keyboard I don't want to send to it.
Unless I want a bass sound on the left to play a manual bass, and even then that split only allows 2 octaves for the bass, which is plenty in my experience.
In this case the split point can be the same on both..

Dennis

I do heavy chording with my RH...all over the mid and upper regions of the keyboard. I also play a fairly busy bass with my LH...Can you tell nme what your tyros 2 settings are?

Thanks-

Bill

------------------
Bill in Dayton

Hi Bill,

I don't use a T2, I am using a 76 note controller with a Motif XS Rack, so perhaps there-in lies the difference?

Bill, I wasn't trying to say you were wrong, sorry if that's the impression, just trying to explain I don't have any probs.

From your description, it sounded like I play in a similar way to yourself, albeit not using an arranger keyboard.

I have the TC set to ignore everything below F3, whether I have a split on the keyboard or not. The splits on the keyboard when I am playing a bassline below the previously mentioned F3, are seperate and only affect the XS rack. IE the bass is set to tx on channel 2 which only plays on the XS, the right on channel one and then thru'd to the TC. When I have the harmony controlled via midi, it is set to channel 15.

It might be that this works only because I am using a controller, seperate soudn module and the harmonyM, I cannot be sure, apart from the harmony notes tend to be okay. Mind you I only use a double harmony vocies on about 15 songs, the rest are mainly rock harmony using a single harmony voice over mine.

What I have found is the Harmony M isn't too smart when it comes to rootless chords, so I have had to modify a bit in those songs where the chordal structure is a bit trickier, but nothing too difficult...LOL I am way too lazy for anything tricky!!!

Dennis

Thought I'd post the responses I receieved from TC Helicon Customer Support department. At first I'm handled by a lower level CS person but then he refers my question to product manager: (Scroll to the bottom for the start of the messages...)

Enjoy...
-----------------------------------------

Greetings, you recently submitted an incident to the TC Support Team which was assigned to me. Below you will find a summary of your question and my response.

If I do not hear from you within 96 hours, I will assume your issue has been resolved.

Thank you for contacting the TC Support Team.

Please do NOT reply to this email. In order to update your question, click on the link for TC Support Interactive below.


Please click here to update your question.


Subject
Harmony M Tracking errors

Discussion Thread
Response (Nicholas) 09/30/2008 08:18 AM
Dear Bill,

This is the answer I received:

Re: recognizing chord extensions, Harmony-M and Harmony-G recognize many of them, and some we will make an interval change in response to them. But we made a deliberate decision to have Harmony-G sing more like a human harmony singer does, which is to stay on the main notes of a chord.

In manual mode you can harmonize the way you want - But of course it is difficult to play the harmonies parts while playing- In this case the use of a sequencer is very interesting.


best regards
Response (Nicholas) 09/29/2008 02:18 PM
Dear Bill,

I have sent the question to our product manager to know exactly how the output harmony notes are chosen in chord mode when feeding a 4 notes chord.
I will come backk to you as soon as I get an answer.

regards
Customer (Bill Corfield) 09/28/2008 04:50 AM
Still trying to figure this out...

Please advise...
Customer (Bill Corfield) 09/25/2008 03:13 PM
Hi-

Just purchased a Harmony M and I'm having trouble with the harmony output when using textured chords. If I play 7ths, 2nds, 9ths, 6ths, flat 9's, etc. it goes kind of sideways unless I have it in manual mode, which doesn't sound as good as the normal operating mode.

My keyboard is a Tyros 2 and I use the "full keyboard" setting...

Please advise how I can improve the harmonies...

Thanks-

Bill Corfield

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Bill in Dayton

Bill,

As we discussed on the phone, TC's service department is the pits. Despite the fact I was able to obtain a direct contact telephone number I never talked with anyone that had any technical expertise with this product. Additionally, when I informed them that the wrong operating manual was in the box, and requested them to mail one to me, to date it still has not arrived. Fortunately, I have a great repair guy in my area if something were to go bad.

Gary

I double checked my settings tonight, and find I get better results setting Lower on the keyboard to Midi channel one, the default channel on the harmonizer. Put everything else on a different channel.
I tried using Chord One, Chord Two and Right One. They all work but the Lower and Right One work best by far.
I suspect the Harmony M just "sees" the notes being played either right or left of the split (or both) depending on how you set the controller or keyboard. It then determines the chords from those notes.
I also suspect that sending "chord" information might not be using the harmonizer best.
You might want to check this out.
DonM

Another tip:....If your running the unit THROUGH your KB, make sure ALL Voc EFX are turned OFF "Inside your KB" before you use the VH unit which has its own.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-01-2008).]