Something that disturbs me deeply, in a lot of what I have seen from professional demonstrators over the last week or two, is the willingness to sit back and let the machines do the entire intro for you. They sit there, twiddle their thumbs, or goof around, or anything BUT play.

For a start off, this IMMEDIATELY clues the audience to the fact that this is little more than karaoke (OK, OK, WE know it isn't, but what about the average punter?), and increases the disbelief factor for a type of keyboard that stretches that belief at the best of times.

But I believe there's a REASON they sit there and twiddle their thumbs... Most of these arrangers have Intros without solos over the top of them, but at present, AFAIK, there is NO arranger that will display the chords for an Intro. So you either have to learn by rote the chords for each Intro of each style (which may be hundreds) or just use the preset Intro with the solo done for you... What MUSICIAN wants to do that?

But.... there IS a solution. Maybe even two. But it will take us demanding it from our manufacturers (mine included).

System one would be a change to the OS, so that the changes for Intros are displayed just like the changes are displayed for SMF's. That's all an Intro is, after all... an unchangeable (other than key or mode) SMF. If the changes are displayed in real time (currently, your display will sit there all dumb as a post, and simply display the FIRST chord you played), blowing a decent solo over an Intro you can't quite remember the changes to will be a snap. No more twiddling your thumbs, or looking like a 'faker'...

The other system would involve a change to the Lyrics display system, so that lyrics (in this case, the changes to the Intro) could be changed if tagged as 'Chords' to the key in which you start playing. This, at least you COULD do yourself (if the OS can change them to the right key), but I still feel it is something the manufacturer should supply with factory styles.

System one would be by FAR the better option (not all arrangers even display lyrics in style mode), IMO...

But if we demand (OK beg, ask, cajole, whine, whatever it takes ) this feature from the manufacturers, the days of twiddling your thumbs like a doofus during the Intro could be a distant memory...

Any thoughts?

Diki......First off theres no way to make people believe your not "MR Automatic" when they hear a full band & only see you up there playing, with that said.... yes I would assume the demo guys have to show off the Intros to SELL UNITS hence the thumb twiddling.....but I have to say Roland has the Intro thing down pat with all the different options on the Intro/Ending scenarios....I think it was #2 that lets the Player create his own Intro?....etc great feature

another thing I miss from the G70 ;(

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-06-2008).]

On the PAXPRO...during either Intro 2 or Ending 2 you can play any chord you want and the arranger will follow,,,playing the chord variations you tell it to play...

I'll have to experiment a little more to see if there is any issues with this.

Lee

I agree on the thumb twiddling bit...it looks rather bad, but it serves a purpose...to show off the fancy sounds and to sell the product

I reprogram my intros so that I can play chords and add my own melody over them..I'm sure others here do so as well.

Roland has the best idea, giving you a choice.

Sure would be nice if the chords were shown...I think Michael Bedesem had a method to show them in a midi.

Ian

In reality, you have lots of options, including playing the LIVE! Keep in mind, however, the vast majority of the audiences have absolutely no idea that we're playing, or for that matter, singing. They walk up to you in the middle of a song, ask if you have THIS or THAT IN THERE, and that while you're singing your heart out. The canned intros are pretty damned good and in many instances, much better than most performers could play on their own. If you want an intro that is exactly like the intro of a particular song, you can sit down, create the intro, save it in the style file, then rename the style file with the song title. Same goes for the endings. This, obviously, takes time and effort on your part. The manufacturers provided us with the options, but it's up to us to utilize them.

Cheers,

Gary

I agree Diki,

Sometimes intros/endings are wonderfully complex chording and it would be nice to have the 'fake book' instead of trying to figure it out.

But as pointed out, the PA series with their #2 option for intros/endings is a feature I could never live without again - and throw in the great 'break' button too.

Hi,
I'm a fan of the Korg system.
Intro 3 : Count In,
Intro 2 : play your own chord progression. Intro 1 : full intro with melody & chord
progression.

Gets a bit much using the same Intro 1 for song after song. That's where Intro 2 comes in handy.

best wishes
Rikki

Firstly, I think it IS important to play in the intros... I've heard WAY to many user demos that start out GREAT, and you get all excited - 'wow! this guy's good!' BUT... then he starts to actually PLAY, and it's 'OMG! This sucks!'

I'm pretty sure any regular listeners will feel the same, but maybe without the knowledge of WHY... Play your own intro, and at least there's a degree of consistency.

Secondly, yes, there are many alternative Intro options, including my favorite - Roland Intro 2, just like the Korg, where it follows your chords. But Intro 3 on the Roland's all have a nice set of changes, good dynamic backing, but no solo. THIS particularly is the type of intro that screams out for the chord display, as it allows you, at least at the start, to use BOTH hands for that big flowery piano intro, or an expressive sax solo with tons of bends and scoops (in fact, just like the factory ones), without having to do the damn gymnastics of flying back with your LH to trigger the changes while you frantically try to find something to play that DOESN'T need a bend exactly where you need a change

And now your LH is even MORE tied up trying to whack those SA2 buttons, the problem gets worse...

MIDI files have LONG been able to analyze the chords and display them (at least on Roland's), and an Intro is simply one of those. The OS needs only a minor tweak to achieve this, and I hope some of the manufacturers realize what a boon to people that can actually PLAY (maybe not their core market, true ) to have some way of knowing these changes without rote memorization...

It's a worthy feature, IMO.

To answer your points directly...

Donny.. they think WAY more that you are Mr Automatic when they hear music and see you playing NOTHING (surely you don't do that?), and the demonstrators are capable enough to play the intros as well as the preset ones.

Ian... that's the job of the built-in Demos. Why does every style force you NOT to play? Even Voncken et al often sit there like doofuses. I'm SURE they would prefer to play...

Gary... they do that to completely live bands, too. Got nothing to do with you playing a machine, it's all about ignorance and rudeness, a sign of the times.

Zuki and Rikki.... Roland add the option to the Korg choices of a fancy Intro with NO solo (it's a different intro, usually, and there's no need to manually go in and mute the solo part). This is exactly what this feature would be for. Didn't know that some arrangers don't have a 'no solo' Intro... I guess for you, this makes less sense, but all I would say there is ADD the request for this type of Intro to your wishlist. It's darn handy type, and, as I said, often different to the main full Intro. Gives YOU (not your machine) the opportunity to make a grand entrance to a song, and ups the wow! factor quite a bit.

To be honest, song specific styles with Intros straight off the record, etc., now that SMF's have song position pointers stored and you can re-order on the fly, don't really make much sense to me. I still feel hampered having to input the chords all the way through and tie up my LH, when, if you are going for the 'off the record' playing, are going to be the same every time you play it, so why not let the SMF do the grunt work, and reclaim the use of your LH?

But while you ARE in style mode, let's get those Intro changes displayed. It WOULD make life easier, IMO...

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 10-06-2008).]

diki,
i understand and agree a chord progression display would be very helpful for intro 3 on roland. right because the lack of it, i dont use that intro so much. neither the ending 3. i prefer doing a little bit of intro playing piano with no accompaniment and after that using intro 1, being so short.
the reason why the guys just relax and let the keyboard play 16 measures intro is simple: they have to show how easy is to "make" great music. remember, the non-pro market is much bigger than the pro. especially since tyros is targetted as a "home hobbist instrument".

A different take

If you have a song specific style, then in most cases it try’s to emulate the real song, and therefore most people think you are not playing, but just pressing buttons. (Or worst case a Karaoke singer)
If you look at the top performers, (Those that make the real money and get the big crowds) none use song specific styles, but general styles and play how they want to play the song, consequently people go wow, that a great player, or, I can’t stand that style of playing, but in all instances they automatically assume they are actually playing.
In other words if you want people to think are a real player, throw all your song specific styles away (Which means you also don’t sound like everybody else) and do your own thing.
If you just want to entertain, then use whatever suits.

Bill

Exactly.......throw the Arranger away also and Play something that doesn't have "AUTOMATIC ANYTHING" Running........audiences are NO Fools.

Intros/Endings, styles, smf, karaoke, mp3, its all part of today's audience acceptance.
Its amazing how we try to cover up what is really being done in whatever way possible.

Good post Donny...I agree wholeheartedly.

Ian

Don Mason plays his own intros and endings.

Tom

Stripped down or Loaded up "YOU" still have to be the Player & and strive to good one at that no matter how you do it, what you sound like to yourself & your audience is imperative.....everything else comes in second.

i for one do never use song specific styles. even if wanted to, i couldn't, as there are no styles for the songs i play and sing... but i dont like the idea anyway.

Whether it is a style or an SMF, song specific or not, if the audience sees you STOP playing, but the music continues (and often with a better quality solo than you can perform yourself!) you are BUSTED!

But mute out enough on either a style OR an SMF to keep yourself busy playing THE WHOLE TIME, and the audience knows it is YOU playing over the backing. It's kind of like the difference between karaoke, and lip-synching. People WILL connect with you doing karaoke (as sad as that sounds!), because at least they can see and hear YOU doing something. But get in front of them and lip synch...? Well, the first time they hear singing, but don't see your lips move (pretty much the equivalent to playing NOTHING in the Intro), they are not going to believe ANYTHING you do... from that point on.

Whether you care or not about this is up to you. Me, I care a LOT