Hi,
The deal is, my music collaborator and I were talking about all the new patches I just downloaded onto my XP. I want to know your thoughts on his theory...whether you think it's true or not. Here it is:

HIS THEORY: The patches that are downloaded off of the net are made from the same waveforms that are already on the XP you have. They're just EFX'ed different and run through all the different filters on the XP to make their sounds unique and to make them sound like some of the patches off of the expansion boards. Hence, using a lot more of the XP's memory and power than if you were to just install the optional expansion boards. The patches on the optional expansion boards are made from all NEW waveforms that are specific to each expansion board, and that get added to your XP only when you install those boards. When you take them out, the waveforms are no longer on your XP. (Which makes sense)

Questions I posed: You can't load waveforms into the User banks on the XP? You can load patches into your user banks...but not waveforms? How could this be true if each patch is made of waveforms, and you are able to download the patches? Aren't you able to create waveforms on the XP? IF so...why wouldn't the Patches you download into your user banks that are supposedly Patches off of some of the expansion boards - why wouldn't they have the same waveforms as the ones on the expansion boards and sound the same? I am very confused on this subject. Please help!

Okay, the reason for the theory:

When one person on their XP uses a sound off of one of their expansion boards to make a song, ...
and then copies that song onto a disk to give to another person who also has an XP, but who does NOT have that same expansion board - the sound (patch) will not sound when the other person plays it on their board because they don't have that expansion board. Hence, they have to substitute the missing patch with a patch of their own.

But, downloading a song into the XP isn't the same as downloading a patch. WHen you download a song, the XP looks for that specific patch that you used in one of the expansion slots. If they aren't there, the XP won't find that sound of course.

Okay...give it a shot! What exactly is the answer to this?

[This message has been edited by stillme (edited 12-29-2001).]

"HIS THEORY: The patches that are downloaded off of the net are made from the same waveforms that are already on the XP you have"

Correct, but what you are downloading is not the waveforms, but their arrangement in the patch; you're downloading the data that arrangings the patch's parameters, not the waveforms.

"They're just EFX'ed different and run through all the different filters on the XP to make their sounds unique

Essentially correct, though there's a lot more to programming a "unique" patch than just tweaking filters and changing the EFX. There are literally hundreds of parameters.

{As an aside: I don't think there are many genuinely "unique" patches out there on the net. Just my humble opinion.}

"and to make them sound like some of the patches off of the expansion boards."

Well, sometimes they sound "more" like sounds on the expansion boards, sometimes more like sounds in the presets. With many (probably most) expansion-board patches, it's impossible to recreate the expansion board patch using only the onboard waveforms.

"Hence, using a lot more of the XP's memory and power than if you were to just install the optional expansion boards."

Well, maybe, maybe not. A good patch is a good patch whether it comes from preset waveforms or from expansion-board waveforms; same for bad patches. Really, IMHO a "good" patch is one that addresses your needs.

BTW: It's not really "using more of the XP's memory," since memory has nothing to do with patch programming. Memory is for storage, not patch programming.

"The patches on the optional expansion boards are made from all NEW waveforms that are specific to each expansion board, and that get added to your XP only when you install those boards. When you take them out, the waveforms are no longer on your XP. (Which makes sense)"

And is essentially correct.

"You can't load waveforms into the User banks on the XP?

No.

"You can load patches into your user banks...but not waveforms?"

Correct. The USER memory is patch memory, not waveform ROM. The waveforms are burned into ROM.

"How could this be true if each patch is made of waveforms,"

Strictly speaking, each patch is made up of an arrangement of waveforms + all their parameter data; patches "make use" of waveforms, but the patch itself is just the data that composes those waveforms' parameters.

"and you are able to download the patches?"

You're not downloading waveforms; you're downloading the data the *uses* the waveforms on your XP. You're downloading the patch-parameter information.

"Aren't you able to create waveforms on the XP?"

Unequivocally: No.

"IF so...why wouldn't the Patches you download into your user banks that are supposedly Patches off of some of the expansion boards - why wouldn't they have the same waveforms as the ones on the expansion boards and sound the same?"

Because the waveforms the patch needs are on the expansion board, not on your keyboard UNLESS you have the same expansion board.

"When one person on their XP uses a sound off of one of their expansion boards to make a song, ... and then copies that song onto a disk to give to another person who also has an XP, but who does NOT have that same expansion board - the sound (patch) will not sound when the other person plays it on their board

That depends on how the sound is called up. If the person saved using Song + Sound, the patch simply won't appear because the expansion board (each of which has a sysex ID) is not there.

If the person saved the song using Song Only and is calling up patches using Bank Select messages (CC0, CC32, and PG), then the Bank Select messages will call up whichever patch is in *that* particular location on your keyboard. If you don't have the same expansion board in the same slot, a different patch will be called up.

"because they don't have that expansion board. Hence, they have to substitute the missing patch with a patch of their own."

Yes; but to do that, you have to call up that patch somehow first. But that's another story.

"But, downloading a song into the XP isn't the same as downloading a patch."

Well, yes and no. But for this discussion: No, it's not the same.

"WHen you download a song, the XP looks for that specific patch that you used in one of the expansion slots."

See above: What the XP actually looks for depends on how the song was saved and how the patches are being called up. A very important distinction.

"If they aren't there, the XP won't find that sound of course."

See above: *Or* the XP will go to the location designated by the Bank Select messages and find a different patch from the one it (the song, the part) is expecting.

Man, you've got some racy questions going these days. Are you sleeping well at night?

The XP can be a brain-bender, can't it?

Hey!

Thanks a lot for helping me! Yes, the XP is a mindbender. I don't think I'll ever get to know every aspect of it like I wish I could. You seem to be quite knowledgable about it though. Have you owned one for a long time? Your answer did help a lot! I guess when you get to know all the distinctions, you can make excellent use of it. Gosh, I just wish I could work my way around that thing like it was nothing, instead of getting lost in a maze of menus and wondering how I got there. Anyway, thanks for the reply. Hopefully talk to you again sometime.

-Tracey

I'm with you Tracey. I've found the learning curve to be VERY steep on this machine, which has stood in the way of me being able to quickly create music.

I have a busy life, which only occasionally allows me to sit down at the keyboard. Each time I do, I feel like I'm starting over (my memory is not so good; sign of old age....).

I love the sounds this machine has (I've also filled it with expansion boards), but it is MUCH harder to use than my old Roland (I bought my XP earlier this year, having used an old Roland workstation for years).

Thank heaven for dnarkosis, who has saved my sanity several times. I make copies of the advice I've received from dnarkosis, so I can refer to it during my rare opportunities to use my XP.

Good luck. It's an amazing instrument, if not an intuitive one.

-KC

Tracey:

"I don't think I'll ever get to know every aspect of it like I wish I could"

Don't try to. Learn to use the functions you *need* to use to make your music. I don't use the whole instrument either.

"Have you owned one for a long time?"

I got a JV-1000 (the XP's predecessor) in 1993, then got the XP in 1997. But I've done a lot of sequencing on both instruments, a *lot*, from the very first day. I've worked out (gigged) with both instruments a lot (what we call "casuals" here; I work with a singer as a duo, but also play the XP in jazz groups just in patch mode), so had to learn. I've learned how to solve problems as they have arisen.

I've also read all I could find about the basic MIDI protocol. Instrument manuals rarely provide introductory information on that. And all the articles in Keyboard mag and elsewhere about tips and tricks.

And during the pre-forum years, I spent a lot of time on the phone with Roland tech support, about which I can't say enough good things despite all the people who dis them here and elsewhere. They can't perform miracles, they can't change the instruments, can't make them do things they weren't designed to do, but I have never had a single bad experience with them and never failed to get an answer or a problem solved. I still call them with questions, especially about the XP60.

And I haven't bounced around to different keyboards. I've stuck with these and have tried to get to know them well.

My turn:

(1) How long have you had yours?
(2) What kind of music are you making with it? Where are you playing that music?

Peace.

Keith:

Be patient. The instrument is worth it.

Let me ask you, too: What kind of stuff are you doing with your XP? Where are you playing it?

dnark/doug

KC: I know. I work an average of 45 hours a week, sometimes six days a week. The only time I get to sit down with my XP is at night after the kids go to bed, before I have to go to bed. Actually, I should be in bed when I'm on it, but that's another story...
I find it very frustrating. I wish I could take the XP with me to work and use it when I'm on lunch break, but we both know that that is not practical. Instead I take the manual with me and read that. It isn't easy absorbing everything in the manual without the XP sitting right in front of me.

Dnarkosis:

I've only had my XP since July of 2001. I don't gig. I'm more of an "at home" musician, and collaborate with my other fellow musicians who DO happen to gig. I have an excellent guitar player who's supposed to add guitar to my stuff when his band slows down. (His band is actually supposed to do a show with Creed real soon) Another friend of ours is into mixing stuff and doing drum tracks...he also has an XP.

I do all kinds of music. If you were to listen to some of my stuff, you could probably more relate it to Pink Floyd or Alan Parsons Project. I like that kind of music a lot...just sitting there kind of in your own world while you're listening to it. It's definately got its own style.

I don't know what I plan on doing with my music. I'm working on a demo CD. I don't know how to go about playing at clubs and stuff. To tell you the truth, getting up there in front of a bunch of people scares me! Anyway, that's me. That should just about answer your question and then some. Again, thanks for your help guys!

-Tracey

Tracey - I've done the exact thing, bringing manuals and documents I downloaded from Roland to work with me, and spending my lunch hours with them. A musician's work is never done, eh?

dnarkosis - I'm a professional drummer, and after 25 years of fulltime touring, gigging, and recording, I've put music on a back burner and got a "haircut and a real job."

I started writing several years ago, and found Roland workstations to be a wonderful tool for people like me. I understand music theory (thanks to an expensive but otherwise useless college degree in music), but don't play any melodic instrument well enough to gig on it. The workstation allows me to program the stuff I hear in my head, at my own speed. It's a godsend!

Songs that I wrote on my Roland have been recorded by a South Florida group called Sha-Shaty, on a very hard-to-find CD called Voices in My Head, and have been performed live with the Clarence Clemons band, with whom I played drums for the last 4 years.

It's a great tool for writing instrumental music, which the above songs are. I also write songs for vocalists, and one of my new years resolutions is to get around to recording them. I play with a local original band called Thursday's Child, and will probably use my XP to augment a demo we're recording as a followup to our debut CD.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004XSGB/

How 'bout you? What's the scoop on this board's "Resident Roland Rocket Scientist"?

-Keith

Tracey and Keith:

Thanks for responding about yourselves and your music. Trés cool.

Thanks, Keith, but I'll repeat myself re: rocket scientist stuff: You know your drumset better than someone who has just gotten theirs. It's that simple. I've just used the instruments (JV1000/XP50) a lot. You guys weren't around when I painfully transcribed 120 drum patterns into dummy songs so I could use them as song starters/rhythm parts (because I was too afraid to program my own) and then promptly *initialized* the disk, erasing about a week's work with no back up. Duh.

I, too, work a (self-employed) day gig, but have been playing out for quite a while as well, either in jazz groups or in the duo I mentioned. My duo and I just play cover tunes for country-club jobs, corporate stuff, singles dances, weddings, that kind of thing. We've cut back out of boredom and burnout.

I played a Sunday deli-jazz-brunch for about two years using the XP: http://profiles.yahoo.com/dnarkosis
I play with pickup jazz groups and am currently exploring a Pat-Matheny style group here with some players.

I almost answered the "What do you guys want for xmas" post a couple weeks ago: In early December, I got myself a 1979 Rhodes Suitcase 73 electric piano in almost pristine condition. I used to have one but sold it in 1989 and regretted it. This thing is gorgeous and sounds gorgeous. I'm stoked.

With the XP sequencer, I'm do acid-jazz/trip-hop down-tempo stuff (is that vague enough?). But I'm not much of a composer. I envy you guys your composing chops.

Tracey: "If you were to listen to some of my stuff, you could probably more relate it to Pink Floyd or Alan Parsons Project. I like that kind of music a lot...just sitting there kind of in your own world while you're listening to it."

Man, there are a lot worse ways to spend your time. Sounds very cool. I, too, empathize with finding enough time for the music; heck, for *practicing* as well as for sequencing.

Keith: "I'm a professional drummer, and after 25 years of fulltime touring, gigging, and recording"

Whoa. Dunno if I'd last that long on the road.

"I play with a local original band called Thursday's Child"

I tried to download the demo, but the page doesn't exist. ??

Thanks for telling about yourselves. This forum has always been full of nice people.

dnarkosis - don't know why the link doesn't work - it works for me. Ah, technology!

Go to Amazon and search for "thursday's child" - the CD is called Lost and Found.

I also run their website: www.thursdays-child.com

Hi!

The steep learning curve of the XP has been discussed here before. I see the problem; these synths take a lot of time to really master, and even then there will be lots of functions that you have never used.

The advice I would give is to try to understand what I would call the LOGIC of the XP.

All PCM synths like the XP are basically the same. If you know how they work and what they actually do, it all gets much clearer, and you can even move from one synth to another relatively easy.

The problem is that many XP-users do not know of the basics of the instrument. One such example is the question in the start of this thread, about patches, waveforms, what is stored where, what consumes processing power. If you know how all this works, you will notice that it works in the same way in a Technics, Yamaha or Korg as it does in your Roland. And Tracey, I am not trying to make fun of you! Really!

So, my advice is to try to figure out the fundamental basics of the instrument, in addition to reading the manual and trying to create music. It worked well for me.. I have focused on understanding how the synth actually works instead of trying to memorize procedures and stepping through them like a checklist.

Just my opinions!

Stig

Hi, just got back from earning a little money doing what I love, music.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that some of the sounds on the expansion boards are made with internal waves, though not many. So if you download sounds that claim to be from expansion boards, they very well could be. Example, the flutes on the orchestra board are made using internal waves. The orchestra II board has new flute waves, but not the Orchestra I board. Those flutes are just re-tweaked from the original built-in waves of the XP.

For my short bio, I'm a musician by trade, but not full-time yet. I perform live, as well as hire as a session player, producer, and arranger for other local projects. Go to: www.roryhoffman.com
for more info about me.

You're right, Stigf. The only way I really learn something is to KNOW how it works and why. The only problem I have with that is that it seems like everytime I sit down and try to read the manual and learn how the XP works...I almost fall asleep! That's why I'm wondering if the video you can buy for the XP is any good. You got any news on this? Oh, and another thing...I'm not very easily offended (unless you tell me I'm ugly or my music sucks... ) and I didn't take your advice as offensive at all. I rather appreciate all the advice everyone on here is giving me.

Questions:

What does PCM stand for? And when you say "understand how the synth works"...how would you define that? Where in the manual would I figure all this out? By reading the whole thing front to back, or is there a specific area I should look for? Last but not least - do I ask enough questions?

Tracey

PCM = Pulse Code Modulation; if I understand correctly, it's the technical designation for how audio is encoded as the kind of ROM samples that synths such as the XP then "play back," which is why such synths are called "sample playback" synths. In the older series (JV80/880/90/1000) and the JV1080/2080, the optional "PCM Card" contains waveforms you can use to form new patches (the cards also contained patches).

I have the video and have learned a great deal from it, including a lot of tips that are in the manual but don't seem as useful at first as they are in the video (like navigating around the keyboard). It's most useful if your video player and keyboard are together so you can hit pause and perform the functions on your own XP the dude in the video is performing on his.

Hi

dnarkosis is right about PCM. A PCM-synth works with digital recorded samples from Read Only Memory (ROM). These are recordings of audio (samples) that can be triggered from the keyboard. The samples are then processed digitally by filters, envelopes, LFOs etc.. The samples, however, stay the same always.

What I mean by "understanding" the synth is to know these things. If you know the basic principles of synthesizers, it all starts to make sense, and you suddenly realize that a synth actually is logical.. And you don't need a degree in electronics or anything!

A good source for learning about synths in general is the SoundOnSound article-archive. They have several informative article-series. www.sospubs.co.uk

Stig