Just on another matter, I have recently (last 2 days) been given the opportunity of getting a s/h tyros 2 for $1900 (about 1050 USd)..
The dealer can also supply an E60 brand new for the same money..

I am sorta interested but not having seriously used either (I did have an e50 for a while, and a tyros 1) I wanted to get opinions from folks on the forum as to which one they think is better, or if there is any difference at all.

I am still not even sure I am going to buy either, but if the MS gets further away they might become an option..

Just wondering..
Thanks
Dennis

I'm a Roland fan.., but do have Yamaha in my set up. However, in this case I'd say go with the Tyros 2 man! For that price it's a steal. If you're about "styles" the Tyros will have more 3rd party support as well.

It would also depend on the condition of that T2. If it's well used.., then for that price getting a brand spankin new E-60 is very tempting as well.




[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 10-14-2008).]

Thanks Squeak... The dealer tells me the guy is a REAL home user and does not play outside the house..But he does play nearly every day, so I guess the keybed has had some work.

The e60 being new, would be a serious consideration, and I thought some of the operational aspects of the e50 were pretty cool, terrible keybed though!

But the Tyros has SO much operationally...I am not really into styles, but sheesh you could have some fun mucking around with it!!! BUT, only 61 keys...another major consideration..

Dennis

Dennis..this is a tough call...In the E-60..you have a better full size 76 keybed..and speakers..Sequence playback, edits for SMF and styles is unsurpassed...and drum kits are the best...(as you know, having played the E-50)..

The Tyros 2 has a mic input and a harmonizer (not great)...There are a few SA sounds..that are great..the drums lack punch..and the E-60 has the better piano..and unmatched scat and vocal patches...

A tough decision for most folks..but not to me....For what it does the E-60 is better...compared to what the Tyros2 does...

Get the T2, and plug a 76 or 88 into it! In fact, get them BOTH...

That's a pretty powerful combination!

I'm not sure, if the E50 didn't keep you happy, that a 76 stuck on is going to make THAT much difference. But the T2 at that price IS a steal, I would go for that, see if you can live with it, and you'll make a profit if you sell it (unless you rush it), anyway...

And personally, I would look for a good used G70 over a new E60, any day!

Thanks guys..

Yes it is a tough call..Both have good points.

I agree the T2 is a steal, and the price is one of the main considerations...I did like the E50 with most of the G70's operational set, but couldn't deal with the keybed.

I also liked the T1 as well, but felt restricted by the keybed.

As for the G70, if one came up here s/h I would jump at it, but Roland sold so few out here, that they just don't come up. I suspect the people who bought them were very similar to you Fran and you Diki, they know what they've got and will not part with them.

Sounds would not really be an issue as I would be mainly using the XS rack and I have a CME 76 note controller (They ARE actually quite good for the money!!) But I am not a "keyboard stack" kinda guy, LOL too much effort.

I can sorta agree with you Diki when you say at that price get both, and if I did this I could sell off the CME replacing it with the E60.

And then there is the issue of the Media Station I know Fran has advised to be patient, but I cannot wait forever and that IS one keyboard that will need a lot of setting up, it would be worth it I think, but a lto of work...decisions decisions...

Thanks again to all for your thoughts, they are all appreciated and very useful.

Dennis

Really? How many agree with this that have tried both? I've only heard online demos which I know can be misleading, but to me the E60 piano seems to start sounding kind of tinky starting on about the G an octave and a half above middle C. I've always thought the Yamaha piano is pretty much unbeatable by any other arranger from what I've heard, to my ears.

I'd really like to hear some discussion on this as I've been considering getting an E50 or 60 but the piano sound is mainly what's holding me back, maybe besides only 2 right hand voice combinations and no Reg Memory as far as I can remember.

I'd also like to hear some discussion on how the voices and sonic quality sound as compared to say a PSR2000/3000/S900, Tyros. If this thing is really as good as Fran says, haha, then I may actually want to check one of the E's out.

http://www.purgatorycreek.com/index.html

It's the definitive place for comparison of sampled piano. EXACTLY the same SMF, played through nearly everything there is. Very dynamic, very full ranged, and all extreme's of playing, from soft and close=voiced middle range notes to bright and open extremes.

The perfect apples to apples site. No factory runs it, the files are user submitted and peer reviewed.

For me, there isn't the slightest doubt. Play the Tysos2 piano file, then play the FantomX (same as G70). Night and day... (it is the one!)

Sure, the Tyros is nice and bright, and cuts through a mix like a laser. But the Roland sounds more like a REAL piano, in person. No EQ tricks, just plain piano. It's easier to EQ brightness into a good natural piano sound (just cut some lows, low mids, a hair of air at the top) than to create warmth and natural low to med-low velocities from a bright sample that doesn't have it (IMO )

For me, in particular, it's the quieter passages that show off the Roland 'sound'. Sure, both have pretty good loud piano sounds. But when it gets quiet, soft, whatever, when I listen to the Roland's, I get the feeling the piano is still right in front of me, but when the Yamaha's get quiet, I get more of a sense of 'distance', as if the darn thing just got twenty feet away, or something...

I would STILL like to hear the new T3 piano on the Purgatory Creek file. I think it possibly addresses that T2 lack of low end warmth. But at least I'll be hearing it as a direct comparison to Roland and all the others, rather than a subjective one if they all had different tunes and players, etc.!

All of this is, of course, completely my opinion I urge everyone to make the most of the Purgatory Creek resource, and start to listen objectively, at least to piano sounds!

BTW, the E60 piano sound that is closest to the G70 (there's three different good ones in there, and a whole pile of less successful, IMO) is the ClassicPiano, but the other two are up at PCreek as well...

IMO, the filter needs opening out just a bit on the E60 version (compare it to the FantomX UltimateGrand for the G70 sound) as it sounds a hair dull.

After having received word from Dom on the MS issue, it might be I just spring for the T2 as it really is a great price.

And then when it is coupled it with the MS, (also a great deal)it will give me, when you add in the XS rack a pretty good system I think.

As I said I am not a multi-keyboard sort of guy so only one will go to gigs, and that would be the MS. With perhaps the XS as an add-on.

I think the T2 will be more of a fun board and to also bounce some recording ideas from.

At least I can get the T2 probably on Friday. Another couple of weeks for the MS.

Dennis

Scott, the Tyros2 Piano has too much resonance..even when played softly..the resonance is wide open...Listen again to Diki's link..with an open mind...Listen to the Roland E80 "classic piano" or the Fantom X "Ultimate"...and the Tyros 2 "warm grand"......

Warmth belongs to Roland...

I love the brightness of the Yamaha piano as it cuts so well through the mix and works very well with the accompaniment.

Piano sound is very subjective...some like the perceived warmth of Roland, and most of us prefer Yamaha's stronger presence.

If you want to soften the Yamaha Live! Grand sound, for jazz or pop ballads, just go to MIXING CONSOLE...Tab over to FILTER and turn down the BRIGHTNESS to around 52...store in a registration or your OTS...works for me.

Ian

I agree Fran. I've always thought Yammie's pianos were too bright..., and the reso really needed adjustment. I think Yamaha does that so that the piano can sit in the mix.., but it really hurts it IMO for solo play. They can be tweeked to sound nice, but the reso has to come down for sure.

I like to add..even Ian's Yamaha P85 has a better piano than the Tyros2...Listen to them and compare....TOOOO much resonance is the culprit..

Yamaha has always modeled their piano sounds on their acoustic pianos, and the list of Yamaha piano artists/endorsers is legendary.

Roland models it's pianos on other brands, probably Steinway, and some Yamaha (CP70) as Roland does not make acoustic pianos....mmmmm?

Some like the Yamaha sound, some like the Steinway(or whatever Roland samples).

Choice is good.

I played the E60 and found it was lacking harmonics in the middle octave... a tad disappointing....and the action was very poor for a 76'er...should have used the G70's keybed.

The P85 piano is nice...I bought it for the action, not the sound (which is pretty decent)...it's an inexpensive unit, but it has a weighted graded hammer keybed that is excellent.

Yamaha does hammer actions real well, because of their long experience (over 100 years) with acoustic pianos.

Regarding the T2 piano...you hear resonance...I hear presence...I like presence.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-15-2008).]

I have played many Yamaha acoustic pianos, C3's etc, and not ONE of them sounded remotely as bright and brittle at medium and low velocities as does the arranger sampled pianos... Just because you can make a great piano doesn't mean you can SAMPLE a great piano...

To be honest, in a studio situation, I prefer Yamaha to most others for a REAL piano, but if using samples, sorry, but thanks and no thanks!

I disagree with trying to filter warmth into a bright sample. It is NOT the same as using a sample that is already warm... As I've said, it is easier to brighten a full piano sound, than to try and create natural warmth from a sample that doesn't have it. If all the lows are pulled out DURING the sampling process, there are none in the sample to emphasize with EQ. All you are doing is dulling down a bright sound. That is NOT the same as using a warm sound in the first place...

Be that as it may, though, I simply refer everyone to P.Creek. Make up your own minds. If you like that 'tack hammer' sound, go for it. But IMO, it doesn't sound like a REAL piano. Great in a mix, BAD at solo piano. I need something great at BOTH...

True enough, Diki, I prefer a Yamaha grand over mostly any other piano, although a friend of mine has a great old Steinway that's been voiced very nicely.

Certainly rolling of the brightness in the filter and leaving the harmonic content as it is, works very well for me, and it's me I have to please...it just takes a bit of the hardness/brightness off, but I still use the piano sound primarily as it is for most situations...as you say, it sits well in the mix, and when you play an arranger, at least with full auto-accompaniment, that's what it is supposed to do.

Ian

I guess my problem Ian is that, because the G70 has 76 keys (and because I am a cheap SOB ) I use my keyboard for FAR more than 'just an arranger'.

If I wanted one of those, and chose to play strictly in arranger mode all the time, and played primarily background, I'd have an S900 right now, and be drooling over the T3 But I play primarily as a WS, with SOME arranger stuff (but still primarily just drums and I do the LH bass thing), or in live bands. As such, I HAVE to have close to a full piano range available as a basic minimum. And that piano has to stand up to being played solo, naked and exposed.

I guess you could say I use the G70 as a WS with arranger features, rather than the other way around

DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!

Not the cheap SOB part..

Drums, left hand "thingy"..part..



[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 10-15-2008).]

I wouldn't say that's a problem my friend...I'd say you were careful about your personal finances.

I think 61 note arrangers are equipped thusly so there is no confusion that it's masquerading as a digital piano....it's just your basic arranger....gotta love the simplicity.

Workstation...mmmmm....comprised of two words...eeeeech!...first it has the word "work" in it....disssssgusting!

Then it has the word "station", which brings to mind a place where buses or trains gather....kinda stuck in one place...you know...imobile...not exactly inspiring...especially when attached to that other word....wor...wo...wor...sheesh...I can't even say it without getting tired.

I think you're on the right track with the G70...kinda does everything YOU need....sort of a Swiss army knife, or a multi bladed screwdriver.

The S900 does the same for me...arranger...61 keys...fun...makes me money...portable...sounds like a combo...or an orchestra....verrrry nice....cheap too, ideal for us frugally minded...or financially aware players.

I wouldn't want to be playing a piano naked and exposed...we'll leave that to Uncle Fran.

Just kiddin'.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-15-2008).]

What are you? The echo?

Oh right...the G70 has one built in.

Shoulda known.

Ian

Buy the T2 and pay absolutely no attention to the BS posted above. If you don't like the T2, sell it to Donny, he'll be looking for a new keyboard in a few more weeks.

Good Luck,

Gary

sorry Gary I had a T2 & dumped a T2 last years...remember ?....boy, first the memory goes hahahahah

Thanks Gary, ...Just did.

Dennis

The voice of reason, speaking words of wisdom, despite the pissing contest.

You buying Fran's old E-60, or are you just teasing him?

Ian the Curious

Yes Ian, I am now in possession of the Roland E60........its really growing on me.
To me it everything I loved about my G70 with a few features less, especially the weight which is pretty much why I sold the G70. It sounds terrific, & with a little homework & a great editing tools Roland lets you make it sound terrific....& you really feel like there is a LIVE Band playing with you not a compressed polished CD that my Tyros sounds like which isn't a bad thing if you enjoy that sound. 76 keys lets you stretch out...SMF markers are super features.Cover & makeup tools are second to NONE! For Vocals & VH I'm now using the TC Helicon Harmony M. A USB connection that really works shows up as an extra drive & makes it so easy to transfer files from PC to KB.
D Beam, V link, Music assistant, User program List that saves retains all info including Transpose unlike Yamaha's MFD, & a players on deck navigation that makes me comfortable playing it. Styles & sounds & new Drum Kits are really professional & there is no shortage of them.

Stay Tuned

Donny, Good luck with the e60. Enjoy!!

Sounds like you're in love again Donny ...good luck, and I hope it does the job for you.

Going backwards is okay, as long as your head is pointed in the right direction.

Ian

Ian I consider the E60 a BIG step forward as I can now progress with my playing abilities in a much more proficient way without being held back with features I require for my needs.

dp

BTW, Ian can you post a few demos of the S900 Scat voices, or a drum pattern..or the Piano, drum kits, & the Organs, or maybe record a SMF playback and I can compare them to the step backwards antique
After all you know with me "HEARING" is Believing



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-16-2008).]

Sure it is, because calling everything posted prior to it BS couldn't POSSIBLY be involving yourself in a pissing contest, now could it?

Thank God Gary takes the high road in this morass of opinion. Good of him to chime in with the FACTS

And Donny... the E60 has been out well over two years, now... How come you can go through every other arranger TWICE in that time, and you've only JUST got a hold of one of these...?

Especially as how much you liked the G70 except the weight. I would have though that was a no brainer...

I know you'll get tired of it soon, but I don't mind. At least you are an equal opportunity 'undecided'.

I've switched twice THIS WEEK. I like SO much about the Ketron Midjay, but I also like a lot about the Roland E50. I suppose it keeps me fresh switching around, balancing on the fence.
Where's my Audya?
DonM

No SA or Mega voices, no Audio to USB, and 3rd party support for styles rather small.

Of course, you mainly sing over SMF so that wouldn't matter much to you.

Enjoy your new toy, dp..I have a feeling the E-60 realtionship will be short lived, but that's okay...as long as you're having fun.

Ian

with his Edirol UA-1ex..Donny always has a USB audio interface...and it really works..

Oh well...that's good.

Now all he needs is some SA and mega voices, and plenty of 3rd party support.

No man is an island.

Ian

Diki.....with my busy schedule its not so easy to jump around as quickly as I want to sometimes.....on top of that the E60 is not the easiest KB to find and demo. BUt having it here now & The T1 lets me take my time to do my homework & set it up properly for my needs.....of which I thank my buddy Fran for this opportunity I also made myself believe 61 keys is enough...but I was wrong again 76 quality keys is a pleasure to play & the E60 NEW DRUM KITS really shine and Diki I kept my Roland T Shirt so that must have been an Omen Eh?

Ian why do you pretend to know everything?...mostly wrong I might add.I can perform naked, styles, smf, mp3 or a combination of them all plus vocals no problem.
Until YOU can provide us with some music of your own to back up all the yamaha BS you profess I would take what your saying with less then a grain of salt for sure. And that goes for anyone here too.

BTW regarding S900 Audio/USB....
see if you can find the S900 USB audio using a PC program?

I rest my case !



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 10-16-2008).]

Ian, where is the shortage of 3rd party help ..when it comes to Roland...

Donny already has the best...ME


Seriously..there are so many quality styles available..and Roland makes it easy to roll your own too...

As for help with questions or problems..I have found Roland owners to be the smartest people in the business..

There are also several Roland sites that are terrific..too

That's quite an act you have Donny...naked eh?

Ian

I didnt think this even needed a comment coming from a guy playing an S900
;eek......whats the difference if its 61 or 76 or 88....
a crappy key-bed is a crappy key-bed, as WE can all see & feel on a S900.

Are you the one who talked him into performing naked?

Ian

As long as I am blindfolded..

That's what I say, Donny.

What's the difference if you're just singing over an SMF.

Ian

Presently I'm playing a Tyros3, Donny...I still have my S900 and my P85.

Life is good.

Ian

You didn't like the Tyros 2 and now for a few SA voices your touting the T3?....weird?
I guess life is good in your Yamaha blinders on Burt Bacharach world for some reason

Bacharach is sooooo cool...love his tunes...superb songwriting and incredibly innovative arrangements.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burt_Bacharach

Don't you do any Bacharach?

If you do sing some of his great music, I hope you have the decency and respect not to perform naked.

Ian

Ian I hope your not getting excited ....your scaring me!!....maybe living up in the north wilderness is the cause?

Not excited, but quite amused.

I think you scare Fran...hence the blindfold.

Ian

OK enough can we get back on Topic now?

as in E60/Tyros2 !

off to my gig real musicians work

Nope...real musicians play.

Have a good night, buddy.

Ian

E 60 sounds and styles.
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Roland+E60&hl=en&emb=0&aq=-1&oq=#

and tyros 2 http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=ps...&emb=0&start=20

For me, The choice is clear.

[This message has been edited by jamman (edited 10-16-2008).]

I guess the point I have been trying to make is that, while the Yamaha's have got the distribution and sales aspects down pat, the little E60 has been flying under the radar for quite a while.

Just like the S900, it offers things that other arrangers in the same price bracket don't, it has extensive third party and legacy style compatibility, and a degree of customization that puts everything else to shame.

Just because you have only READ about them here, doesn't mean you shouldn't get out and TRY one. 76 notes, under 30 lbs., speakers, good live sound, good live OS, and the best SMF and style editing anyone could ask for...

Only reason I haven't got one is my back is still holding out OK!

If I didn't own a G70..I would gladly use the E-60 as my go to keyboard..

It is an amazing instrument, sound wise, key feel, even the speakers sound good..The make up tools are tops, the SMF playback and chord reads(a measure ahead) are very usable...Super drums too..

And under 29 pounds...


Make no mistake..the E60 doesn't match the power and features of the G70....but neither does any other keyboard..to me..

For the money..I would take the E-60 over anything in it's price range....In fact I did..

You will never see me playing another PSR keyboard ...ever..The feel is absolutely intolerable for me....bad under size keys...and the sound quirks are embarrassing..particularly the drums and harmonizer...Most of my opinion comes from owning the PSR740, PSR2000 and a pair of PSR2100's....I did get the chance to play the other PSR newer models ..PSR3000, S900..and I had the same disappointment..for the same reasons..

The Tyros and Tyros2 has a slightly better key feel to me..but by no means acceptable...

These are just a few comments to put a proper perspective...after the demo link posting..

Adi, a nice demo..showing the clarity of the E-60..

BTW: I forgot to mention..I also prefer the live sound of the E-60 over the S900..


Now where did I put that blindfold..

It's not a blindfold you need...it's a hearing aid....

Just kidding.

You've corrupted poor Donny, and even worse, you have him playing an E-60...have you no pity?

Oh well, I guess we can take solace in the fact that Donny's keyboard romances(naked and otherwise) have a short (but intense) life span.

But then again...maybe this is true love....

Let's hope so.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 10-16-2008).]

the tyros is a full blown arranger the e60 is a scaled down modle . I'm a firm believer in buying the top model. Tyro 1 2 or 3 Get an e80 or a g70 or a pa 2x or 1x pro all these borads are collectors pieces. Like a cool strat les paul taylor martin or ibanez

Since the introduction of the PSR/2000/3000/S900 I have been a firm believer in buying the mid-range.

Besides saving me a fine chunk of money at purchase,lowering my initial investment, and increasing my overall playing profit, I have found that these gems have most of what's on the top guns, and everything I need for gigging and recording.

The E-60 is much the same.

There those who need a Lexus, and those who are happy with Toyota.

Just another view.

Ian

now, if i only realized when i posted this video that it will end up being seen over 30.000 times... i would've done it better! this demo is not so great, maybe it's even a little bit unfair to E60...

I thought it was pretty good, Adi, and it goes to show you don't need a G70 to sound great.

Bottom line...save $$$ and your back...get an E-60!

Ian

I'd marry those keyboards too if i could support them. I'm a paligamist when it comes to arrangers and any sexy piece of gear. e60 for the 76 keys sexy but why not with all the e80 stuff?... now we're talking bout me gettin' excited. But roland has to too support them with more updates and improvements styles. We need to tell them incesantly.

You mean, like Yamaha do..?

Just be grateful that whatever styles you DO get, conversion, third party or Roland, it is a snap to revoice them and tweak them into something good. Doing this on some OTHER arrangers is an exercise in patience!

Ya know, I go into the hospital for some tests and everyone starts stomping on my trusty E60. All I can say is - if you ain't played one don't criticize. The E60 is not just a 76 key e50. It's certainly not a G70 either, but more importantly it's not a Yammie.

I have had a PSR2000 and 3000. They're nice boards. And I'm sure the T1, 2, 3 are just as fantastic as you say. But they're not Rolands. Simply put, I think that Roland puts out the type of board I like. It may be subjective, but as Donny says - it sounds good to my ears.

And as an aside, I just got done listening to Donny's new CD and I get to tell you I'm totally blown away. Not many of us have put out anything as professional sounding as this. NAKED or not, he sounds great!