????
I'm loosing a lot of faith in Ketron......
I wrote this on 10/15. but after seeing some demos and speaking with Ketron USA. I think that this will be a great board and I wish them a lot of luck.

I don't think that I will be able to afford one, time will tell.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 11-18-2008).]

They obviously have problems finalising the product....

B&H Photo has a price ($5995.00, I believe), photo and description of the new Ketron.

Geko, a retailer of motor scooters, has a photo, price and description of a Sachs Madass 125cc motorbike that has not been cleared for sale in this country. That's a pretty shoddy way to do business, in my opinion. And, both of these places are fairly reputable. Neither mentions that the advertised product is not yet available.

Russ

Most likely, I will get a chance to check out the prototype model this coming week..

I was told maybe January 2009.


------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

George, I was told maybe January 2010...

The reason given was they want to make sure they have a least two more opportunities to do Musikmesse again before they finally release it.

Best,
Mike

I expect Feb 30th...

(Altogether now...

In the year 2525
If man is still alive
If woman can survive
They may find..... (the Audya is almost out)

In the year 3535
Ain't gonna need to tell the truth, tell no lies
Everything you think, do, or say
Is in the pill you took today..... (but your Audya has STILL not arrived)

Yep cant wait ....Audya & a Philly Cheese steak....

BTW GO PHILLIES!!!

Hi.

If Ketron are going to show the Audya at the next Music Messe in Frankfurth,
it will be the 3rd time they do so.
Oh well, all good things come up at 3 they say, but after all this hype, and
yet total silence from Ketron regarding both release date and what cause the
delay, make me wonder if we ever going to see the "wondermachine" for sale.
Yeah, it most be a wondermachine if the price going to be as high level as we
can see predicted. For that price I can buy 2 other of the high end arranger
keyboard models..... who knows, maybe that's a better "value pack"?

Happy Playing
GJ

Isn't it better they fix all the bugs now before release, & implement & test all new features which will hopefully result in less service problems to the end user in the long run, versus releasing a unit every couple of years that doesn't have much change in it? What's the rush anyway?

Maybe so, but why the total silence?
And... there most be trillions of bugs fixed during the long
time since the first hype started, can't be many left to solve if
thats the problem.
Probably more serious than just a few bugs... and the silence are
in the wrong end of the marketing strategy, if any at all. :P

GJ

or maybe, they kinda reworked the AUDYA, new samples, SA voices etc., to OUTDO the Tyros3

i mean for $5,000, i hope it's better than Tyros3 or Ketron is in trouble

Let's hope it just WORKS...

I have had my doubt about the practicality of loop-sliced audio as an alternative to MIDI files and an NTT for a long time. I STILL don't see how they get around the limited selection of chord types problem, or the 'gap in the sound' problem as you slow loops down below their original tempo.

Personally, I think they bit off more than they can chew. And, as hard as it is to get decent third party styles just for regular MIDI based arrangers, how hard do you think it is going to get finding new styles that use loops? Ketron have an abysmal record of providing new 'Live Loop' styles for their existing arrangers. What makes you think that suddenly they are going to be a fount of them, now?

The ROM loops better be f*-ing amazing, and extremely versatile, because don't hold your breath waiting for new ones! This ain't like simply chopping a drum loop up... You need a guitar loop in ALL keys and modes and chord types, all perfectly matched and evenly played. Best of luck.

Forget editing the styles. A loop is a loop. Game over.

Time will tell, but although if ever brought to market it will sound initially quite distinctive, I worry about how little NEW content you'll get from that point onwards. How many of us are STILL using nothing but ROM styles, after a year or two of ownership? You are NOT going to want to buy the Audya2 after a couple of years at these prices!

You all make very good points; Why announce a keyboard, when you only planning on releasing almost two years later. DNJ, your also right, I have been the test dummy for ketron for a number of years, x1, xd9 & sd5 and I want a keyboard that works and does not freeze or the screen fades out with lines, etc. Diki, you also bring up good point, with this new wave loop styles.Can they be edited, how will the 3rd party styles work, etc. I can tell you when MS series was first release and the follow years after, they have one of the best style library out there, to further expand the MS keyboards. After thatthey only release very few, to none at all.

I was a die hard Ketron supporter and user. But I simply lost faith in there products. They still sound very good, if not the best. but no more for me, for now.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 10-16-2008).]

DIKI,

very good points

i like audio loops used in styles,
they give it the "live" feeling that Korg, Roland, Yamaha cannot produce

of course i understand your points about slowing down styles with say a guitar accomp., the choppiness etc., that's probably why it's taking Ketron so long.... they probably realize, ye it works , but after deviating more than say 15% from original tempo, it starts to sound chooped up and is unuseable....

if any editing of these live loops were possible, via recording your own, importing, this AUDYA would be THE BOMB !!!

LIVE AUDIO LOOPS EXPLAINED FURTHER.

2 Drum tracks (Drum 1= Midi, Drum 2 = Audio).
1 Bass track (Audio/Midi depending on style).
4 Arranger Chord parts (Midi).
1 Arranger Chord part (Audio/Live).
2 Chord parts - instant/lower (midi).

STYLES WITH AUDIO LOOPS.
* Use all tracks (especially the AUDIO tracks).
* Recorded as 3 styles (e.g Ballad Slow (0-30%), Ballad Med (30-60%), Ballad Fast (60-100%) [where % marks tempo] so there are actually 3 'styles' per style depending on tempo selected! This eliminates Audio disruption when tempo is stretched beyond limit of the 'styles'.
* User can create their own AUDIO styles, but yes, extra work is needed ONLY on audio tracks if user decides to use audio.
* Extensive Editing available on non audio tracks.
* Limited editing available on Audio tracks (as you can expect).

STYLES WITHOUT AUDIO LOOPS
* Use all NON AUDIO tracks (Drum1, Bass, Chord 1-4).
* Recorded as 1 style (e.g Salsa) with midi tempo variation (as present).
* You can create all parts from scratch.
* Permits you to load previous Ketron styles (that don't use Audio loops).
* Permits you to edit ALL tracks extensively.

STYLE CONVERSIONS.
* Applicable? Yes, since MIDI tracks on styles still exists.
* Converting from other manufacturer to KETRON? Yes via external software (e.g EMC).
* Converting from KETRON to other manufacturer - yes, but you'll loose/miss the audio tracks.
* 3rd party styles usable? Yes. You can simply inco-orporate whichever loop into 3rd party style (if time signatures match) once loaded into AUDYA.

* Recording your won loops? Possible. Using these with styles (factory or user)? Possible ... after some extra work editing the loop(s).

Hope I answered most questions (especially those in doubt).

Thanks,

AJ

What's kind of interesting is that AJ, Sandro and I were having breakfast one morning , before heading to the NAMM show
and discussing how to have an abundance of styles. I had mentioned that it would be cool if you could incorporate sample loops from all the different "sample" librarys
in to the keyboard and have them respond to chord changes.... I kind of feel the concept of Audya was born that morning !
AJ .. call me 410-598-2618 . I think you have a different # now ....

Cool features, but when will we see this for real,
demostrated and possible to lay hands on
in the stores where we use to do business?

Cheers.
GJ

AJ,

so you're saying we could use loops from libraries? and have AUDYA correspond to chord changes?

and record our own, lets say real rhythm guitar, and have that correspond to chord changes?

but then we'd have to record ALL chords, minor, 7th, 6th, dim, aug, sustained, ??

or would AUDYA transpose the Audio? so you'd record 1 Cm, and AUDYA would shift audio to say Fm, which can be done quite well now via software. (Melodyne)

No, the nature of guitar chords means that a C chord is fingered completely differently from a G chord, etc., etc..

Plus, as I've stated for a LONG time, what do you do about extensions..? Most modern arrangers give you a choice of three patterns based on chord TYPE - major minor, and 7th (and a few have Dim). The rest are extrapolated using Note Transposition Tables (NTT) from what YOU play.

But let's look at a 'live loop'... Each chord you play HAS to have a corresponding loop, or it will simply play the simplest chord it can. Play a min6, get a min... play a 7b10, get a 7th. Play a maj7, get a Maj. Not what you want at all...

AJ... how about posting EXACTLY which chords are recognized, and which aren't? Seeing as you are handing out specs

And for anyone thinking you can make your own loops up, think about this... A four bar loop, in twelve keys, with at least three main chord types, in three different tempo ranges. That's 108 different loops! All played perfectly all laboriously sliced at each transient point. And that is ONLY three types of chords. Maj, min & 7th. Add 25% for a dim, add another 25% for a sus, etc., etc..

Sorry guys, but yes, there are a few of us here that don't play anything more complicated that a Maj, a Min and a dom7th. They probably use a One Finger Chord system too! But I can't for the life of me imagine how this is going to impress any player that CAN play more complex chords. And, let's face it, at that price, how many One Finger players are going to buy it..?

We need a LOT more details about this, AJ....

I am sure that the styles, are on par or even better then the other arrangers...

But can Ketron keep up with Yamaha and Korg in the solo sounds department...

Bachus ... sound authenticity is personal taste. To me, personally, Ketron solo sounds have always been better than Yamaha or Korg... There is no catching up to do... Just my opinion.

You've got to admire 'faith' in the face of overwhelming evidence that making the Audya WORK was a FAR greater task than Ketron realized...

The only thing I am SURE of, is that it will not be everything everyone wants it to be... The nature of audio loops and the complexities involved (only some of which I have outlined) pretty much guarantee that those who think they will be the panacea to conventional arrangers will be disillusioned.

There will be a VERY short, initial gasp of 'this thing sounds AMAZING!', then the feeling of 'is this ALL it can do?' will set in. Trust me, audio loops in realtime for as fluid and complicated an instrument as rhythm guitar are just not practical. Even computers have yet to get it right, and they have FAR fewer practical restrictions (like load time, streaming audio, etc.) than a hardware instrument.

There's a HUGE difference between a loop that does it's own thing, and one that needs to respond INSTANTLY to your input. For instance, we haven't even discussed what happens if you change an extension or chord type DURING a long chord... Play a slow ballad, with a strumming chord. Change half way through a beat from Maj to Sus4... Your conventional arranger can handle this. How does an audio loop manage this?

I'm sorry, but I truly believe that audio is NOT the answer. Sophisticated guitar emulation is already a reality with Mega voicing, the new T3 guitar NTT's, and Korg's Guitar Mode. Tie these to VERY realistic samples, and you have a recipe for guitar strumming and picking that SOUNDS like the real thing, but remains editable and no problems with whatever whacked out chord you want to throw at it.

Audio loops feel like the One Finger approach to guitar parts, IMO. They are going to do what they want to do, and you are going to have little control over them...

We are on the verge of a Golden Age of arranger realism, but it is NOT going to come from primarily loops. Sample sets are getting more and more realistic, and techniques to add in the performance characteristics are getting more authentic, rules based behaviors for lines that don't jump on chord changes are already here, sampled drum sets like EZ Drummer and BFD show that you can get ultimate realism out of drums without audio loops of any kind, guitar strumming emulation is getting VERY close...

Audio loops are a blind alley, IMO, and any company that banks it's future on these has not simply looked at the PRACTICAL aspects of it. If I want to dick around with loops, I can use Garage Band. But if I want something that responds in an instant to what I play, and offers me an infinite variety of styles and sound variations (you can't change an acoustic loop into an electric loop with a simple PC#, that's for sure!), with customizability and editing possibilities, that's going to HAVE to remain a MIDI based arranger. IMHO...

"I'm sorry, but I truly believe that audio is NOT the answer. Sophisticated guitar emulation is already a reality with Mega voicing, the new T3 guitar NTT's, and Korg's Guitar Mode. "

Th SD1 arrived in 2001 with excellent guitar immulation and captured realism way before Yamaha & Korg did , so the thought that you needed yamahas mega voice and korgs guitar mode to be realistic, is not accurate imo.

I would still take a SD1 over a T3 or PA2X any day. Just my opinion.

To my knowledge, there is nothing on Ketrons remotely similar to Korg's Guitar Mode, or Mega Voice technology.

Yes, they had pretty good basic sounds, and some good style programmers, but there's nothing in the Ketron that revoices your chords to guitar specific chords and strumming patterns. Authentic guitar playing by the style section is just one of those things that, once you hear it, you realize just how OLD everything else has gotten

That's not to say the SD-1 isn't a great arranger, just that times HAVE moved on. Have you even TRIED a PA2X?

Has any of the dealers gotten prices on the Audya yet? is it really going to be $5000?

General Music had notation & lyrics display before any product on the market. Does that make it old ?

Being able to select a guitar part and isolating that part instantly ( unplug )is a little more powerful a feature than mega voice & guitar mode ...

I will post SD1 audio samples for you soon. I will try out a PA2X. I have owned a T2 & PA1X & PA800.

If you haven't made a visit to my wesbite, you are certainly welcome to have a listen.
Guitar strums are all over the place, except for a few songs.




------------------
http://www.esnips.com/web/Songs

Is it just me, or did that funk guitar thing basically not change all the way through? He made some variation changes, but I can't make out any different patterns, on the whole...

And he only played basic major and minor chords in it. No 7ths, no Dim's, no Aug's, no extensions. No nothing.

Mind you, one thing I REALLY like about the Audya... that's a 76 in about the footprint of a T3

no offense to the guy doing the demo, BUT...

Ketron really needs someone who ca REALLY demo this...and di it some justice

they need a "Yamaha" like guy that i've seen in a few demos...

these Ketron demos are VERY weak in my opinion...

i mean if you wanna show off a cutting edge top of the line keyboard, demo it with a top of the line player...

a pro instrument NEEDS a PRO demo...by a PRO player

anyone agree?

That guy is SZ member & Ketron engineer AJ


here is another few demos...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?
v=xqUxV79N4i0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIC8NOqUu4w&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqYYg8sFve8&feature=related



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-16-2008).]

well, AJ probably likes me a little less now,

but i still feel they need a more "PRO" demo, show off more styles...

i mean i can play well, but if i was Ketron engineer, i would definitely hire a kick ass player, with lots of energy, etc. it's not enough to just play, you need to be able to demo it well, it's an art just like any other job...

just my 2 cents for what its worth

To be honest, although I'm sure AJ might not see it quite this way but I actually appreciate the more restrained nature of his demos... I'm actually trying to listen to the loop features as closely as possible, and anything that gets in the way is a distraction. I already know what I can do with a decent sound, but listening closely to what the MACHINE is doing is what is going to tell whether this idea floats or not.

So far, all simple majors and minors, from what I've seen. No sus chords in response to actual playing (anything moving is part of the loop whether you want it or not), no dims, no passing chords, no extensions...

Mind you, it still sounds great (always knew it would!), but I still have reservations about how well it's going to follow me. I look forward to another demo that puts it through it's chord change paces a bit more... Not everything is a one chord jam (or two or three!).

Diki,

Watch the other video demos. There is one in the booth where the demo'er does some Jazz chord changes. The Audya followed like a charm, IMHO.

Sounded great!

Al

One persons view...When I was buying Electronic organs back a long while ago (Thomas, Lowry, Yamaha)..I was alway cautioned to LISTEN to the INSTRUMENT, Not the demo person...

Hey I like a good demo too..but it boils down to what I can do with the instrument..not what a highly paid killer demo guy can do.

But, I do like to hear those guys play!

Lee

During these demonstrations, the idea was focus on the keyboard and not the player. I have done demos in the past where the company said "too much playing" so ...

I will put up some Jazz demos soon with more challenging chord changes ...

Thanks,

AJ

Thanks, AJ...

Hey, is there going to be any Chord Sequencer-like function on it? The Riff feature was far too preset for my taste...