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No wonder that arranger keyboards get such a bad reputation...

Yeah..., I saw this the other day. In fairness to Yamaha though.., this demo isn't geared at the Western Market. If this was a video demo for the Western Market.., there would be some real grumbling over here.

Hi Andrea

Bad reputation?
To be honest, I never been aware of the bad reputation, but more the fact that the
(autocomp) arranger keyboards are more suitable for home use, and even more, it's
perfect for One Man Bands and Duos/Trios playing for Weddings, Saturday night at
the local dancefloors etc.

This video is probably made to reach the German users in that category. The
"Flippers", "German Pop" and Traditional has much in common to Scandinavian Danceband
Music.
People like to have fun, and go out dancing to music who is easy to remember lyrics
and sing along to, and if it also have a "lively" rythm to step around the danceflor
without have to do too much thinking, it's even better.

If we compare Woncken and Harris demos, I think it will hit different type of the
customers who might buy this keyboards, and after all, for Yamaha and other keyboard
manufacturers, it's all about sales and profit .......

Cheers and Happy Playing
GJ

I dont see or hear any difference between T3 or T2 do you?

I don't fault Michael for the performance, but this is the market that Yamaha is trying to capture with the T3.

That is why I went over to Korg; much more contemporary sounds, styles, and style. Looking past deficiencies between both brands, I think Korg really get's what musicians want. And they try their best to give it to them.

What I do see people lurking ready to bounce on any thing to make their point.

I have no doubt that the video was made for a certain German market and I find no reason to critic it. He was doing what he had to do to reach certain type of people. Do whatever it takes to do a good job, sounds familiar.

IMHO, John C.

I wonder where that bad rep is happening??

I've never heard that from any of my audiences, or any of my one man band or duo friends.

Jerry

[This message has been edited by Jerryghr (edited 11-01-2008).]

Glad to have got some discussion going...

Here is more fuel for your discussions:
1- a demo is supposed to make you think: "Wow! That keyboard sounds really cool: I want one!"; too bad that this kind of music can be played with exactly the same results with a PSR 900 or with another mid-of-the-line arranger. Just try to ask yourselves: if you lived in Bavaria and played Schlager music 24 hours a day, would you need to pay 3000 euros to sound exactly like Voncken sounded in this demo?

2- Speaking of "bad reputation", here is a suggestion to open your eyes: go to a Forum like Keyboard Corner or Harmony Central, post a link to this video, ask the opinion of other keyboard players and watch what happens. Warning: be sure to wear an helmet and a bullet-proof vest.

I have nothing against arranger keyboards; those of you who know me (it's obvious that Bruno 123 isn't one of them) know that I have three of them: Korg PA2X Pro, Roland G-70 and Tyros 2 (in strict alphabetical order... )

Personally I loved the T3 demos by Martin Harris, James Sargeant or Peter Baartmans, but this one obviously falls into another category.

Yes..., it DOES fall into another category. One category it DOES NOT fall into is for the "Western Market". I don't see anything wrong with this demo as he's providing it for another market. You may not like the version of the styles he's playing, but the different genres don't sound the same around the world.

This video isn't even in "english". Clearly he's capable of putting out good demos that appeal to the western market. His PSR-2000, 3000, S-900, and Tyros 2 demos show this.

I think you're being a little too hard on this one. If this was a video in english for the western market with the same music playing.., then I'd say "fire away" as these do not reflect the western versions.

Squeak,
speaking of "western market", Germany or Austria aren't exactly in Asia, you know...

1- Maybe that's what many of the target audience think? Believe it or not, but it's
a large potential in the home market, and maybe it's exactly where Yamaha try to hit
by use of demos like the German one?
Also the laid back and relaxed way to play may get adult beginners and home users to
think "WOW", is it really as easy as that, this most be tried out!

The wide spectre of musical styles and sounds in the modern arranger keyboards make it
more easy to make demo for what usergroup you want to hit, we can see it clearly now
by the different demos popping up.

2- The forums around now has many people who call themselves pro (and try to convince
everyone that they are)... so this demo probably don't fit into that category because
of the music style played? (Not heavy loaded with dim aug and all kinds of chords)
The big question are: Is it the "pro" keyboardplayers Yamaha try to reach with this
demo Woncken give here? I think not.

This demo would probably be the one who made an amateur like me run to the store rather
that the very "polished and complicated" demo by some of the others, who again will
reach another audience.


And Andrea, I don't think anyone would say you're not a true arranger keyboard fan, we've
seen it for many years already.

Happy Playing.
GJ

I know they're not in Asia, but German Rock styles, and German versions of Electroncia sound different over there than the Western versions of these styles. Also many of those styles he played were "region specific". They may not appeal to you.., but to those from the region may enjoy them.

Look at it like this... Some of these styles he played were what you consider a more "classic or traditional style" over there.., much like what we refer to over hear with our western arrangers having more "traditional styles". The styles he played in this demo are geared towards a specific "age group" in the region just as the arranger over here is also often geared toward the more "mature" buyer.

I think this demo did what it was intended for. Showcase more traditional styles for the region targeted at a specific market.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-01-2008).]

All fine and well, but my question is still valid:
- do you need a Tyros 3, with all its bells and whistles, to play music like this one?
Gunnar is right saying that this demo is aimed at the home market, but even so the only moment in the demo where he played something that was specific for the T3 was when he played the SA2 clarinet, but even there he didn't showcase it at its best, IMO.
The demos by Harris or Sargeant were likewise aimed at the home market, but at another level. When Harris demoed the new semi-acoustic jazz guitar he did a George Benson imitation that had me going "WOW!"
In the Voncken's demo, OTOH, there was nothing (except the poorly demoed clarinet) that you couldn't do with a PSR 900.

Oh well... forget what I said: maybe Squeak is right and I am just being too hard. Besides, it's 11 p.m. here in central Europe and it's time to hit the sack.
G'night, everyone.

Well, that's another view at it, the demo did not show the "true" potential of the T3.
But do that make a bad reputation to the arranger keyboards?
Nope, I don't think so, and if Woncken is'nt a pro player, noone are.
The bad reputation I think most be in some peoples minds, someone who feel that play an
arranger kb don't be as good "pro" act as play the other high end keyboards ussually seen
and heard on TV or other performances around.

As ong as there are various types of demoes, it surely give a picture of the big potential
a modern keyboard have.

Strange, after we changed to winter time last weekend, the clock are at the same level here
as in Italy!

Sleep well.
GJ

I don't see what you are all getting worked up about...

I'd rather listen to this all the way through (and actually managed, despite not being a schlager fan!) than that abortion of a Latin GW-8 demo.

At least Yamaha use players who can play enthusiastically, whether they like the product or not. The Roland demonstrator sounded like it was the last thing in the world he felt like doing, that it was beneath him, and he was going to show just how BAD you could make one sound, if you REALLY tried!

C'mon, Roland... give me a call

Ahhh, that's where the bad reputation regarding arranger keyboards come from! (If any)

Cheers
GJ

I think "Michel" just sold a 1000 units in Germany and 500 in Austria with that one video...

Its the core of Arranger markets worldwide, and Vonken sells big time.

As usual, everyone is right....

"....What he did with the T3 might easily be played with a PSR 900..."
YES, true.

Do the targeted audience knows that?
Most probably not.

Video ads are not created to stimulate our creative thinking and make us think "I can search around to find out what is best for my job..."

Their purpose is to make people buy THE ITEM pictured, not something that simply does the job.

If Heidi's grandpa decides to get to the town with the intention of buying a T3, then Michel Vonken is succesful.

Well, I guess that everyone is happy then: Heidi, her grandpa... and Yamaha!





[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 11-03-2008).]

I dont see or hear any difference between T3 or T2 do you?

Dnj. After spending seven nights at the Keyboard Festival UK for the launch of the T3. Yes it does sound better overall, but more to the point is it worth forking out so much £ or $ to do a part exchange....for me the answer is NO. So in some respects you are correct.

Graham....appreciate the honesty....so many are overwhelmed by the hype blinding their decisions......with so many talking about stripping down the styles to eliminate all the FLUFF which you hear in T3/T2 styles whats the sense of sounding canned...less is more IMO.

Thank you for your reply hope you had a good time there.

Andrea, LOL

Maybe he meant Heidi Klum?

HMMMMMMM ?!?!?
http://images.google.com/images?source=i...snum=1&ct=title

Now....that's a nice, very nice model...
I wander if it's from Roland, Wersi, Yamaha, Korg, or Ketron..AND I bet it has some form of Super Articulation???
Lee

Good one!

Yamaha markets the TYROS to the H O M E market. Thats the way its been and that's the way it will be. Somehow I don;t think the US is considered an important market for the TYROS, The profit in the Clavinovas is far higher and the Tyros is sold as an alternative at many or even all Yamaha authorized Piano/Clavinova dealers and not often found in MI only music stores. I have not seen many Arrangers in MI only music stores come to think of it.

That's the way I see it and have no inside information, But we get tons of literature on the Clavinovas and all of them on the floor. They all sell. The Tyros literature is on the same pages as the PSR Series.

We sell Clavinovas 20-1 over the Tyros. The S900 sells mostly around here to Latinos. But this is SC and not exactly a hip market.

But it is a live music market makes me wonder.

My complaint about many keyboards over the years are the too modern sounds which become dated. Thats what I like about Yamaha. Their sounds have been more generic.

Shalager9sp) music is generic apparently in Europe. I'll find a way to use it for fun.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 11-03-2008).]

Yeah, I thought the same and even thought of posting a picture of the "other" Heidi, but was afraid of offending someone... but Tony had the right idea!

Ok, I have been busy lately, and I haven't been on this forum for a while, didn't read many newspapers... but dayum! Couldn't ANYONE warn me that GERMANY is no longer part of the western world??


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- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl

HELLO??!! Is it true after all? Do Americans REALLY think that their country's borders mark the end of the Western World??? Are you really that ignorant?

If you would understand German, you would hear Michael say in the first words into the demo, that this is a SPECIFIC demo for SPECIFIC (German, Austrian) musical styles, and that there will be many more demos to follow. The fact that it is in English only didn't ring a bell?


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- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl

Hi Graham...I also only have my Tyros 2 a few months & have so much more to learn about it. When the Tyros 3 come out I looked listened and said to myself no need to change at all. What am I gaining?
That Organ festival sounds wonderful, wish they had it here in the States. These instruments sound so good instead of fighting & arguing on the forum people should be glad we are able to appreciate all this fantastic technology in music, we've come a long way.

Oh by the way: "Dutch" is not "Deutsch", "German" is not "Dutch", Holland is not the capital of Norway, Dutch people don't wear wooden shoes, we don't live in windmills, we don't walk around smoking weed all day and we don't kill off babies and/or elderly people "just because we like to". (Thank you, FOX)

We'll cover Dutch swearing tomorrow. Class dismissed.



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- THE DUTCH KEYBOARD FORUM
http://www.keyboardforum.nl

Hey, I love tulips, don't ruin my day! LOL

Damn, and I was just thinking about moving there. Oh well, I'll keep looking.

chas

"HELLO??!! Is it true after all? Do Americans REALLY think that their country's borders mark the end of the Western World??? Are you really that ignorant?"

We may make mistakes like everyone else...BUT WE ARE FAR FROM IGNORANT!

Lee

hey is it time for a Hijack ?... ....Michele Voncken will be so happy after all isn't what this topic is about?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-03-2008).]

I don't think you'll find many Europeans that think that the US is in the Far East...

You keep slashing education budgets long enough, to fund the 'Bush Doctrine' and tax cuts for the wealthiest 10%, and sooner or later, yes, this IS about how well educated the average American is...

Heck, 27% of Texans, after hearing how Obama sat in a pew in a Christian church in Chicago for the last nearly 30 years, STILL think he is a Muslim Mind you, those same people probably think John McCain is a Christian, despite never going to church, much!

People will believe whatever they want to, facts or not... (mostly not!). Heck, they are trying to get Creationism taught in American Schools... I guess that will come straight after the Alchemy class and Magic 101

Hogwarts... coming to a high school near YOU, soon! In Harry Potter We Trust

Arranger keyboards have a bad rep because there are far more $300 "Arranger" keyboards out there than $3000 Arrangers. The $300 keyboards have defined the Arranger for most people including myself until I played and heard a PSR3000 three years ago. I became a convert. But they still don't replace software VSTs and NIs

Diki and others,
this is a clear example of why things are so bad on this Forum.
Someone starts a thread (right or wrong, dumb or clever) and then, all of a sudden, another forumite springs up with a remark like this one (totally off topic), that clearly evokes a reaction from another forumite and... bang! Another thread gone awry and another fine mess...

Is this how we want Synthzone to be?

Why isn't politics banned from this Forum?
Why isn't it reserved to places like the Bar?
What's the point of discussing politics on a Forum devoted to music? Are Diki or Kingfrog hoping to convert anyone when they go on with their endless tirades about Bush or Obama?
I don't think so: we are all grown adults and nobody is going to change his/her wiews because someone posts something on Synthzone.

No, to me posts like this one are more like a knee jerk reaction, something done without much thinking, with the only purpose of venting (resentment, frustration or whatever). It's like someone has had something on the stomach for a long time and then thinks: "OK, let's go to Synthzone; the place is such a mess that nobody will notice if I spew out something"

Think about it, you all.

[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 11-03-2008).]

Well, no-one wants to talk about MUSIC here...

I figure pissing contests about politics, sports, cars, women, arrangers... what's the difference?

You reckon there is one, maybe two new arrangers a year..? Tops... You are REALLY going to talk the same old talk about the same old worn out topics for a whole year?

Look, guys, I try. I post threads here about all kinds of arranger operational aspects, ways that we can vary doing what we do, ways to improve playing skills. Possibilities for new features to improve the realism of arrangers, ways to turn traditional playing skills into effective arranger operation... blah blah blah....

They wither on the vine.

But you'll piss and moan for three pages about Korg vs. Yamaha, SMF's vs. styles, Satan vs. McCain

If the membership doesn't WANT to talk about music, and admin is happy to let personal attacks and OT comments thrive, who are WE to argue...?

Obama is definitely a Christian. A white hating American hating "USA of KKK"Christian married him, baptized his kids. He definitely is Christian he sat there so mesmerized he did not hear the "message"
I give the his voters g 6 months before they become totally disillusioned and feel raped.

And to keep it on topic I'm further predicting those who love this fraud they can buy expensive keyboards today had better love them because it will be the last they will be able to afford to buy. THis is going to be fun to watch if the name BARRACK HUSSAIN OBAMA is last on the list of former US PResidents.

Kingfrog...Yep...I agree...Be very careful what you vote for.

The real issue IMHO, is, if he wins..the check and balance is GONE! The Democrats get whatever they want...and that's not good for the USA.

I think we are in deep dunggus.............................
Until the impeachment.
Lee

Here is an example of why his tax increases will affect those who can least afford it.

Lets say I own an Apartment building, I earn well over $250k a year in income from that business. My taxes go up 5%, Guess what? I raise my rents 7% to make myself whole and the tenants get to pay for my "tax increase." Now can they get that increase from their bosses to make up for that? I doubt it since their bosses will be cutting back to Make up for the same tax increase they will have to pony up because they earn too much.

So in the end the very people the Dems are attempting to "help" will hurt even more. ( See Carter Administration) I am not convinced THAT'S what the Dems ultimately want. A needy society to keep them in power.

Collective Socialism has never worked.

Scholarships are available for EVERYONE WHO DESERVES and EARNS them from countless Foundations (including the $150 million form the Annenberg Foundation Ayers and Obama distributed) That money comes from the rich and Alumni, Its plentiful and much is not used becasue our school system is run by the NEA and not by Parents. Schools should be privatized and those with the best results should prosper. Government should provide Vouchers to parents to spend at the school they choose. Its working in DC. But that eliminates the need for the NEA and outs the power in the People's hands. Not exactly a Democrat's principle. Government should control every friggin thing....

That's he way I see it anyway.....A happy medium would be nice. Mc Cain is an angry medium.

HEY Mr.Michael Voncken;
I just want to know one thing while you are busy reading all of this T3 stuff..
Who the hell is running in 2012 when the term for one of these 2 currently running
duds'N'dopes is through!Can you see an actuall leader stepping up to the plate at any forseeable future Mr.von?
This Obambi/McCan't crapola is such a dam scam of anyone deemed a leader!see Ones stuck in a mental state of a war minded individual,the other is a unknown fake with very pretty socks..what to do Micheal.V on the T3?

This thread has gone WAY out of topic.

A fat guy demoing an expensive way to sound good to Heidi's Grundpapa has no relation to Obama and McCain.

Please everyone get back in the track...
or
Nigel please, would you consider locking it if Andrea agrees?

I think it's time to lock it down. Anytime a member makes a comment that clearly has racial over-tones.., the topic should just get locked down at that point.

It doesn't take a genius to read between the lines Kingfrog with your all caps, first, middle, and last name of the democratic canidate. Sad.., that people this far into the election (even on election day) are still doing this.

It should be locked.

Yes! thats a resounding Y-E-S, Lock this dam thread Nigel! See i AM going to start hijacking ANY f'n thread that goes into politics that should N-e-v-e-r had gone so to begin with.As i pointed out in times past,where the hellz one go to hide from politics in a frigg'n KEYBOARD FORUM!
If i cannot beat it, i shall then dammit join the multitudes of insanity who turn every T3/keyboard like topic into a dam oscama binny laden/McCan't affair.
Lock'N'learn is the only recourse i conclude.

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 11-04-2008).]

[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 11-04-2008).]

"Bitter, frustrated old men"...

Seems the number posting here grows all the time

Oh, what the hell... might as well join back in

Somebody explain to me how, if raising taxes on the wealthiest 20% of Americans is going to make the poorest 80% even poorer, how come when the top 20% got huge tax CUTS during Bush's terms, the poorest 80% (60% of us call ourselves the 'middle class') didn't get any wealthier themselves, and actually had real income decline...

The rich get poorer, the middle class get poorer
The rich get richer, the middle class get poorer.
The poor have next to nothing, either way...

Sounds like the perfect Republican strategy to me...