That's what I was figuring Nick. It's such a sensitive subject with some though when you bring up the possibility that their own timing may be an issue. Plus those who have been playing Yamaha or Roland for years and used to these models.., may not really even know they have timing problems if these models in some way compensate for it by smoothing out the fills if you come in just a bit ahead of behind the beat.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-08-2008).]

Not true..On the Korg you can select whether you want to have the fill trigger on the next measure, OR immediately.

I suspect the programmers at Korg realise not everyone has perfect timing when it comes to pushing the fill button, so they give users the choice. Three in fact.

excerpt from the manual.....In brackets are my additions

"This setting is only available
for the Fill 1, 2, 3 Style Elements.

Immediate, first measure:
The Style Element enters immediately.(and begins from the first measure of the fill pattern.)

Immediate, current measure:
The Style Element enters immediately, and begins from the current measure. (IE, if the style is at measure 4, the fill pattern starts at measure 4 of the fill pattern, if available.)

Next measure, first measure:
The Style Element enters at the beginning of the next measure, and begins from the first measure. "


As I said I no longer own the PA1x, or PA2x, but I have to give credit where due.

And I NEVER had one timing issue with fills, only ones that I either deliberately tried to stuff-up, or where my timing on the button push was off.

Dennis

PS: I repeat, I have my doubts as to the "genuine" nature of this thread.. AJ has got what I think he intended to do, which was to start huge debate on a "perceived" fault of the Korg's not long before the release of the new Ketron.

Clever marketing strategy I would say.



[This message has been edited by miden (edited 11-08-2008).]

Knock, Knock...anyone listening out there...

I posted the solution. If you want to change that so called glitch (On some styles it works to be an advantage). I play this thing all the time and rarely have I even noticed this. If I do, I just PERMENTLY change it by overwriting the factory style.

just do it...it takes less than 6 seconds o do.

AJ...If I had Korgs OS source...I could change it myself too...mAybe it's C++ maybe not. I know about 12 launguages so hope it would be one of them? :-)Not sure I would though. After making the change on the styles you mentoned...I tried to make it sound bad on the fills...never did.

It is not a show stopper and most styles do not even exibit it.

I really think if Korg thought it was a bug it would have been fixed a long time ago. I think that's why you have an option in the style record to be able to change it to which ever way you want.

The Korg PA series speaks FLEXIBILITY...If you want to know what I mean actually download the manual, set back with a cold one and read it...you will be amazed! It's 329 pages not including the PC songbook editor or Advanced Edit which includes full funtion sampling.
But, It is not at all a difficult machine to operate...very easy.

Not perfect though...Me too looking for that e-mail when one comes out.

AJ is just trying to be helpful to us all, thanks AJ....besides before Audya ships we will have a T4 and a PA4XPO???
Lee

leeboy

When you make your suggested changes to the style and try to re-create the error, you can't. Why? Because the fill is now ONLY played at the begining of the next measure IF you press it after the 2nd bar of the current variation.

However, there are instances where you want the fill to start at the 3rd or 4th bar of the variation and with your fix, this is no longer possible. On the Yamaha and Ketron keyboards, it is without the glitch (and this is where the error lies).

This is why I was saying your fix is a temporal fix and not really a permanent one.

I am not sure what source codes Korg uses, but I know Yamaha and Ketron both use C++.

AJ

Exactly, AJ...

I'm sorry, guys, but like I said, just how many of you routinely trigger their fills in advance..? Personally, I've been playing arrangers for fifteen years or more (hard to remember exactly when!), but I have NEVER played an arranger that didn't trigger fills when you need them. Sometimes you want a fill to go the whole bar, sometimes you want it for only the last three beats, sometimes you want a two beat pick-up, sometimes, just the hint of a pickup and a crash... All of those options out of ONE fill, depending on when you hit it. And, of course, those options are multiplied by how many fills you arranger has.

But now, rather than bitch at Korg until the problem is solved as well as all their competitors have done, you want to suggest that, rather than trigger a fill when I want it, I now have to go against 15 years of practice, and think about triggering the fill even BEFORE I want one?

Just so it is as smooth as the arranger I already have (and which manufacturer has figured out smooth fills for generations prior to this model?)?

That is CRAZY!

That is not a MUSICAL solution to the problem. That is an ENGINEER'S solution to the problem. Sure, it works (as long as you are willing to give up 75% of the other ways of using the fill), but it isn't MUSICAL...

How easy is it going to be, trying to remember which styles you can safely hit the fill when you want it, and which ones are going to be needed a bar in advance? That's a recipe for disaster, if you use a bunch of styles. Even IF you bother to program the type in, you STILL have to know in advance which ones they are. I truly can't believe I am hearing this insanity!

Just get Korg to fix it (how hard can it be when everyone else apparently has it figured?)...

Go ahead and snub the PA. Maybe I have the one quirk unit that works great. Roland and Ketron are the absolute worst when it comes to style glitches - my opinion. No break fill? Geesh, how lame

To think one has to spend time going into menus to fix fills is ludicrous. Use what's there, work around a FEW small imperfections and enjoy the fruits of the board that is second to none.

Keep your dinosaurs, don't really care.

Ketron has had fill break on their keyboards for over ten years. Also the dinosaur you call ketron is what paved the way to have other keyboard companies step up their game.

This 'bugg'/error is NOT in the styles themsselves, but in the OS (how the Arranger handles the styles when the Fill is pressed).

The simple fix for Korg's PA issue is as thus...

* User presses fill (within a 4/4 style)
* Check for location within measure.
* If location falls around first beat - play full fill.
* If location falls around 2nd beat - play first 1/2 of arranger and last 1/2 of fill
* If location falls around 3rd beat - play first 3/4 of arranger and last 1/4 of fill OR just add CRASH (depends on how far into Arranger fill was pressed).
* If fill pressed approximately between beats, continue with Aranger up to next beat, THEN activate Fill/break, but surpress Midi notes for chords of fill/break until next beat (this is the SUGGESTED pseudo-code fix for this and the part currently not handled well on the Pa series)... just my suggestion(s).

Again, this is just pointing out a 'bugg' with a suggested fix, and we could also apply such to other manufacturers too (as has been done in the past).

With all that having being said, I still personally think the Korg Pa800/2Xpro is the most 'extensive Arranger' with generally the best 'orchestrated styles' currently in production as of 11/09/2008.

AJ


[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 11-09-2008).]

AJ,
I certainly do agree with you in general and I respect the way you have spoken about it...and your fairnes to all MFGS. As we all know none are perfect...

I will tell you guys this is not all styles...most work fine. I have not spent enough time on it to really know why this happens, and only sometimes.

I do have hardware, firmware as well as softwae engineering backgroud (Every day I write VB, C++ or other code)

I am going to find out...WHY Korg has not addressed this...trust me I am a bulldog, and I will find out. Now you have me going on this!!!

It's really a shame to have to even talk about this...A keyboard with so much going for it, and to have any issue with this?? Crazyness!

But, to keep perspective, this is one heck of a keyboard and I enjoy it a lot. I also enjoyed my T2 a lot.

I will check out the Audya when it comes out...and I will be checking out the T3 next week...IN DETAIL.

Depending on how I feel about each one and based on how I play the music I love and how much the board helps me and satisfies me..I might change horses.

Lee

Well said! What an embarrassment a person could make of themselves on stage and this type of glitch occurs!
My sentiments exactly.
Rfinnshw