First time I listened to Ketron, and I'm pretty impressed. I believe it will be released January 2009?
http://www.ketronus.com/demos.php

I read on the site that some of the tracks in Ketron styles are audio and some are MIDI. Can someone explain how this works? Are the samples on the website audio drums or MIDI?

Reason I want to know is bc I make my own styles and would like to know if they will sound like this if I use just MIDI.

Chony wait for the AUDYA in January

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-04-2008).]

How editable is the Audya going to be by computer?

Will I be able to easily design my beats on my computer and then load them into the Audya?

Also although the sound of the Audya is nice, the layout sux... I guess something always has to suck...

Chony talk to AJ he knows more the anyone else about the Audya. Sorry that the t3 & pa2x didnt work out for you.

I'm not too sorry -- both the Yamaha and Korg have advantages to them, and until the Audya comes out (assuming I'll want it), I have at least another 30 - 40 weddings to perform at - so the Yamaha is coming to good use...

Chony

wow - these demos are so good!

Hi Chony,
I found style creation/editing functions on the SD1+ very basic. Hopefully they've updated these functions on the Audya.

For instance if I wanted to record the style in a pc sequencer , the only way to get it into the sd1 was via midi. Each variation , fill etc had to be recorded across. Rather time consuming. Haven't had to use this recording method in years.
Also there is no event list note editing in the sd1+. So , should you to record a style in realtime on the SD1 & you hit a wrong note, there's no way of fixing it except for rerecording the track.Other than that, it's a great sounding keyboard.


best wishes
Rikki

Now that is what LIVE drums should sound like. I loved them. I couldn't help but think, however, how difficult it would be to get my own styles converted over to the new Audio styles? Or even create new styles with the Audio tracks? hmmmmm

If that's true, its a deal breaker for me...

They sound very nice. It has that live band feeling. Ketron has always had great sounds. Lets waut and see what comes out of all this.

Hi Chony,
maybe if you downloaded the sd1+ manual from the ketron site, it would give you an idea of the style creation functions on the Ketron.
Then when the Audya manual becomes available, you'd be able to do a bit of a comparison.

I persevered for over a year with the style creation functions. Unfortunately unlike Yamaha, there is no "Ketron" software available to create styles like there is for the psrs. I thought I'd use EMC ( with plus package) as a way to note event list edit the some of the styles, ran into problems with dissapearing controllers & other annoying problems.
Eventually gave up, bought a psr1500 & currently I'm playing around with the Korg PA800.
Still have the SD1+, beautiful keyboard, but didn't suit my style creation addiction haahaa

Apparently nedim ( Basari Studio's) over at the korg forum, has had access to an Audya,
maybe he can tell you a bit more.

Here we are, banging into the wall that is 'live loops'...

You see, they are just that... loops. So forget about editing them, forget about creating your own rhythms from them, forget about importing styles from other arrangers and having them access the same kits, forget playing SMF's and have them access the same kits, etc., etc..

They are what they are, and that's all they are (or ever will be). But hey, they sound GREAT...!

Trouble is, of course, once you get used to 'great', you want 'great' all the time... and the loops are not infinite. There's only a limited number, and then you are on your own. Importing your own, slicing and dicing, matching fills to grooves, matching volumes and EQ's, these are all very complex tasks (it ain't like Acid or Garage Band!).

AFAIK, Ketron NEVER added one more 'live loop' style after they released the SD-1, so you better be content with what you got. Anybody, with skill and patience can sit at home and edit an existing style into something quite different and unique. We are all used to editing MIDI styles... move a kick here, a snare there, change the 'swing' value, etc., etc., soon you have a totally different groove.

But loops can't do that. As I have said many times, I would MUCH prefer the ROM space taken by loops (it's considerable) just given over to MUCH better multi-velocity drumkits recorded in a room (which is what makes the 'live loop' stuff sound so real, anyway), like EZ Drummer, BFD, etc, and just have great drummers play the drum pads to program it...

At least THAT way, you will still be hard pressed to tell it's not a 'live loop', but you get back the ability to edit, change kits (can't turn a brushed loop into a sticked loop), change the groove, change drum sounds WITHIN the kit, etc..

All things we take for granted, now...

Well for me, I was never big on editing factory styles from any keyboard. I was always content on what was in the board or find a style to suit my needs. If I didn't like the majority of the styles, I won't purchase the board. My thinking is that a board has to sound good out of the box without tweaking. If you must tweak every styles to sound good why buy the keyboard.

I do though edit aftermarket styles since they tend not to sound as well as the factory. So not being able to edit audio loops won't be a big deal, since I don't intend to in the first place.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 11-06-2008).]

Even if I think that all this talk about the Audya (and what it can and cannot do) is rather futile and it would be better to wait till it's out and then dissect its pros and cons, I agree that it's MUCH better to discuss this rather than talk (at least in this Forum) about politics or economy, so I'll try to add fuel to the debate.

My experience with the PA2X Pro has been that, once you try sampled loops, there is no going back. A real drummer, sampled while playing a groove for -say- eight bars has nothing to do with a midifile playing eight bars with a sampled drum kit, even a multi-layered one. That is because the drummer will hit each time the hi-hat or the snare or the ride cymbal not only with a different velocity, but in a different place (side, center, bell, etc), with a different accent and so adding nuances that would be impossibile to reproduce with a midi sequence and a sampled drum set.
On the other hand my experience has been that if you have just a simple percussive loop sampled live, it will inspire you to play in a way unmatched by any midi sequence.

In the past months I have been working on the issue of creating my own drum loops for the Korg PA2X and -hardware like- all it takes is:

1- a sampling CD (like those from Drums on Demand with a lot of sampled loops already trimmed and matched for volume or Eq).
2- (optional) a program like Sound Forge, to slice the loops and save them in Acid format (but the same task can be done by the Korg and -I guess- also by the Audya).

But the reality is that you are limited only by your imagination! Since examples are worth more than words: I am currently working on a new song, that I hope to post in the next few days: it will be kind of a surprise song, and I will also ask you to guess where the "trick" lies.
Stay tuned.

Diki ,

"Ketron NEVER added one more 'live loop' style after they released the SD-1, so you better be content with what you got"

This statement is not true. http://www.ketron.it/diskLibrary/selezio...ue&idProdotto=4

The whole concept of using audio loops is so that Ketron owners can use/import audio loops from the thousands of sample loops available by multiple manufacturers.

Dreamer,

You said

"A real drummer, sampled while playing a groove for -say- eight bars has nothing to do with a midifile playing eight bars with a sampled drum kit, even a multi-layered one. That is because the drummer will hit each time the hi-hat or the snare or the ride cymbal not only with a different velocity, but in a different place (side, center, bell, etc), with a different accent and so adding nuances that would be impossibile to reproduce with a midi sequence and a sampled drum set."

This is accurate, but why was Ketron able to add sample drums ? Because drums do not need to respond to chord changes.. which in part is the brillance of the SD1 technology.
I know you know this, but many people do not understand how it was done !

Integrating guitar loops etc.. is another ballgame..


------------------
http://www.esnips.com/web/Songs

Just to add another thought ...

The sampled drums were streamed & sync'd directly from the harddrive..

My mistake... Last time I asked this (another thread, another time) nobody said they had... I apologize

But for those overemphasizing the difference between audio loops and what can be done with multi-velocity samples, I encourage you to check out EZ Drummer (and it's expansion packs, especially Twisted Drums, my fave!), DFH2, BFD, etc., all of which SOUND like loops, but are MIDI files playing well recorded kits with room ambience sampled in.

Things have improved SO much in the last three or four years...

And for those that have NEVER even TRIED a little style editing, I encourage you to try. It can be a LOT easier than you think it is, especially when you are just messing with the drum track... If you limit your choice of arranger to whatever best covers what you need with just the ROM styles, you are often making a decision more on the styles than the actual sound and operational aspects.

But learn to edit styles, and you can pick what SOUNDS best and works best for you regardless of whether the ROM styles cover ALL the needed bases...

Not only style editing , but style remix... Taking an acoustic guitar strum from one style and mix with another .. or Baroque string parts mixed with an 16 or 8 beat.

BTW... for the SD1 owners who did not know about the additional styles, they are some of the best styles Ketron has ever made. Call Ketron distributor...

Style remix isn't quite the same issue with loops. As long as you are not editing the loop. swapping them around will be fine...

But with MIDI styles, you can take a picking pattern from one style, add it to another with a different swing factor, and adjust the picking to match (or the drum to match the picking).... Loops, probably not

Look, I'm not criticizing for the sake of it... I've worked with loops in software for years. Finding JUST the right one, especially if you want matching fills, etc., is not easy or cheap. And editing a loop so that it matches something else is VERY tricky. Certainly a LOT more work than most here seem willing to try (they do little MIDI editing, which is hundreds of times easier!).

You see, this all seems great UNTIL you learn about just how much work is needed to progress past the ROM styles. Now, I don't know about you, but it seems to me that the majority of arranger start to get bored because they grow tired of the ROM styles. This is where translated styles comes in. BUT... if the live loop styles are THAT much better in sound, you want them ALL this good. And there goes your expansion possibilities, other than what Ketron offer.

So, they either work for you or they don't. And few realize the mountain they are going to have to climb to get their own loops in. Take this one more step, and start to acknowledge the pitched loops that the Audya will employ (guitar playing, etc.), and you just increased your complexity of creating your own content, or editing existing content, by a factor of 100 or more!

So I VERY much see the Ketron system as ideal for those who will NEVER crack a manual, edit a style, create a style, and are 100% content with what it comes with. Once you factor in the expense of producing melodic loops (you need dozens upon dozens of them more than a simple drum loop), the sheer price of making them (and the few that will buy) will probably make an ever expanding library of them very unlikely.

I'm sorry, but loops all SEEM like a great idea, until you start to examine the restrictions they will place on you... If all you want is a great sounding preset choice, cool, go for it (I'll be checking the Audya out myself, if the opportunity arises), but if you are like me, and like tweaking your styles until they do what YOU want (rather than how they come), knowing about the limitations rather than simply buying into the hype will keep your eyes open wide...

"Look, I'm not criticizing for the sake of it... "


Diki, I realize your not criticizing for the sake of it.. I have no problem with your uncertainty.

But I thought I would give you an idea of how the SD1/SD1plus works..

With the SD1 or SD1plus, you incorporate audio loops within a style by naming the audio loop the same name as the style
( ofcoarse the length of the loop needs to match tempo) which in turn streams the audio loop from the harddrive, while the style plays.

Keep in mind, the audio loop works only if the loop does not need to recognize chord changes ( drums) .. And the loop will adjust to tempo change, as long as it style sounds musically correct.

You are right in knowing that it is hard to incorporate audio loops and most owners of the SD1/SD1plus do not know how to do it.

Of the 307 Styles on the SD1 , 198 of the styles were born on the X1 and carried over to the SD1( all midi generate styles).

So, we'll see ....

I second those Drums on Demand Loops I Bought 6 volumes. Even edited some 4/4 into 3/4. The Tyros 3 will not eliminate the use of them as well. They sync up well in Sonar.
They were the only loops that came in song format with many fill and variation choices just like "Styles" to choose from within a certain beat choice. No hunting and pecking for the right fill in a different kit.

DOD Loops are really good. I recently got Session Drummer with Sonar 8. Haven't tried that yet but it uses MIDI to play it's samples which then can be looped or recorded in a linear format. But DOD has the stereo mix and EFX going for them. Kind of like Styles. They also come on DVD separately tracked for the more anal "recordist".

Bass on Demand was a waste of money.


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 11-06-2008).]

Hi Dan,
thanks
I for one,didn't know about additional Ketron styles.
Don't like my chances of being able to get them over here in Aust. Suppose I won't know unless I phone. Hopefully I may be pleasantly surprised.
They're not actually available to buy online are they???? Some of those latin styles could be a good addition.

I did initially play around with creating drum audio loops for my sd1 from sample cd.
It wasn't all that difficult really.

My main gripe was the lack of note editing functions onboard in the style section , and ok , if it can't be done onboard, it would have been great if they'd created a pc software program that would have made creating & editing styles possible.

Yamaha's aren't that brilliant either with the onboard note editing functions, but at least there's software around that allows one to do it.

thanks again for the info on additional styles .

best wishes
Rikki




[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 11-07-2008).]

What's the price on those 'live loop' styles?

Any conjecture about what Audya loop styles are going to be as well?

Diki , are you talking about the Ketron styles I listed ?

Yes, and any forthcoming Audya style pricing (if fixed, yet)...

If I can remember the style & song disks were about $10-$20 each. Ketron has a big style library with very nice styles. As far as the Audya it also depends on the euro vs dollar exchange rates, which have lowered from what I understand. I saw somewhere online it was going to be 3800 euros, but I don't know if that changed.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 11-08-2008).]

How much audio information could it fit on there if it was able to fit on a disk?

That's not a lot of memory (maybe 1MB after you allow for the style itself) for four loops and fills, intros, endings etc..

What sampling rate and bit depth are the loops?

Decent price, though. I am amazed not every Ketron owner doesn't already have them...

Hi Diki,
I didn't realize they existed. I bought my SD1+ through the aust. ketron dealer. At the time I certainly didn't see any style disks in the store. I would have bought some.

Hi Diki,
I'm only guessing, but I think the loops reffered to are midi drum loops not audio drum loops . As you said, there wouldn't be a great deal of space on a floppy disk to fit much in the way of audio drum loops.
I've created a few for my korg, a 1 bar loop (on average) equals 1mb.

I'm inclined to think, the styles use the onboard "Live Drums" and they've created some new midi drum loops for the styles.
Maybe Dan can correct me if I'm wrong.

Ketron even gave us some drum loops ( midi) for the sd2.They were midi phrases in various genres that used the Live Drum sets in the SD2. Live drum sets are nothing like your normal gm/gs drum sets ( as you probably already know).

best wishes
Rikki

You can have a look at the available Ketron disks on the Ketron Italy website (link below). They don't have, however, sampled grooves but just midi sequences, usually based on popular songs.

Ketron website

Rikki --

I though you were on the Pa2x? You changed - or you have both? And which do you prefer? For what reasons?

LOL. Lots of questions...

Hi Chony,
I've had my SD1+ for 3 years, PSR1500 for 2 years & my PA800 is now 1 year old.
If I had to make a choice & keep only the one, it would be the PA800.
Only reason , my hobby (obsession)for many years has been working out how the style creation functions work on different types of keyboards. Not that MY styles are actually any good (haahaa) .
Unfortunately creating a good style requires musical ability as well as knowing which functions & buttons to press.
Unfortunately I lucked out on the musical side.

Currently for me the Korg has the best style creation/editing functions out of the 3 keyboards I currently own. Haven't owned a Roland in the last 5 years, so can't make a comparison.

Some of the sounds (to my ears ) are definately better on the SD1+ than on my PA800. The "live drums" & the ability to incorporate a wav drum audio loop into a style is what drew me to the sd1+ in the first place. A function I'd never come across before in any other of my keyboards.
I'd luv an explantion on what Live Drums actually are??
I came up with this theory after I played around with the Groove function on the PA800. I tend to think a Live Drum is a rom based, sliced , audio loop ie you have your audio component ( drum loop) & your midi component (style track). Because of the midi side of things you can actually use the same Live Drum set & create different drum patterns based on the one Live Drum set.

Also, SD1+ uses 2 drum tracks, a "Live Drum " track as well as a normal midi drum track. The midi drum track also helps vary the drum patterns in a style.
Unfortunately the wav drum loop files loaded by users don't work the same way. The drum loop will time stretch so it can be used at different tempo's, but, it will only play back as is.

On the other hand, don't know if you've actually used the "groove" function in your PA2X? the Korg actually time slices a drum wav loop, so you end up with your audio & midi data. Depending on the loop you've used, you can manipulate the midi data & come up with slightly different drum patterns based on a single loop.
My PA800 is limited to 64 mb's, wheras the PA2X can be upgraded to to 256mb's. I've had to keep my loops down to a minimum. I've created a few brush swish grooves, mainly because they sound better than midi brush swishes. Also I share any styles I create,& trying to share audio can cause hassles.

best wishes
Rikki

best wishes

You can do the same thing with a Laptop and a Korg Roland or Tyros. Except you have complete and total control over the looped samples and all elements thereof.

The SW out there to create voices is amazing and if you are going to go that route you would spend far less and have much more use from a Notebook, some great Software and any Arranger.

I agree.If you are going to use prerecorded loops get a notebook and have complete and total control of your voices.

Dan, would you chime back in and clear up whether those 'Sound and Style' disks you pointed me to are actually new loops, or are they simply styles that use existing loops already in the SD-1...?