Hi Chony,
maybe if you downloaded the sd1+ manual from the ketron site, it would give you an idea of the style creation functions on the Ketron.
Then when the Audya manual becomes available, you'd be able to do a bit of a comparison.

I persevered for over a year with the style creation functions. Unfortunately unlike Yamaha, there is no "Ketron" software available to create styles like there is for the psrs. I thought I'd use EMC ( with plus package) as a way to note event list edit the some of the styles, ran into problems with dissapearing controllers & other annoying problems.
Eventually gave up, bought a psr1500 & currently I'm playing around with the Korg PA800.
Still have the SD1+, beautiful keyboard, but didn't suit my style creation addiction haahaa

Apparently nedim ( Basari Studio's) over at the korg forum, has had access to an Audya,
maybe he can tell you a bit more.

Here we are, banging into the wall that is 'live loops'...

You see, they are just that... loops. So forget about editing them, forget about creating your own rhythms from them, forget about importing styles from other arrangers and having them access the same kits, forget playing SMF's and have them access the same kits, etc., etc..

They are what they are, and that's all they are (or ever will be). But hey, they sound GREAT...!

Trouble is, of course, once you get used to 'great', you want 'great' all the time... and the loops are not infinite. There's only a limited number, and then you are on your own. Importing your own, slicing and dicing, matching fills to grooves, matching volumes and EQ's, these are all very complex tasks (it ain't like Acid or Garage Band!).

AFAIK, Ketron NEVER added one more 'live loop' style after they released the SD-1, so you better be content with what you got. Anybody, with skill and patience can sit at home and edit an existing style into something quite different and unique. We are all used to editing MIDI styles... move a kick here, a snare there, change the 'swing' value, etc., etc., soon you have a totally different groove.

But loops can't do that. As I have said many times, I would MUCH prefer the ROM space taken by loops (it's considerable) just given over to MUCH better multi-velocity drumkits recorded in a room (which is what makes the 'live loop' stuff sound so real, anyway), like EZ Drummer, BFD, etc, and just have great drummers play the drum pads to program it...

At least THAT way, you will still be hard pressed to tell it's not a 'live loop', but you get back the ability to edit, change kits (can't turn a brushed loop into a sticked loop), change the groove, change drum sounds WITHIN the kit, etc..

All things we take for granted, now...

Well for me, I was never big on editing factory styles from any keyboard. I was always content on what was in the board or find a style to suit my needs. If I didn't like the majority of the styles, I won't purchase the board. My thinking is that a board has to sound good out of the box without tweaking. If you must tweak every styles to sound good why buy the keyboard.

I do though edit aftermarket styles since they tend not to sound as well as the factory. So not being able to edit audio loops won't be a big deal, since I don't intend to in the first place.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 11-06-2008).]

Even if I think that all this talk about the Audya (and what it can and cannot do) is rather futile and it would be better to wait till it's out and then dissect its pros and cons, I agree that it's MUCH better to discuss this rather than talk (at least in this Forum) about politics or economy, so I'll try to add fuel to the debate.

My experience with the PA2X Pro has been that, once you try sampled loops, there is no going back. A real drummer, sampled while playing a groove for -say- eight bars has nothing to do with a midifile playing eight bars with a sampled drum kit, even a multi-layered one. That is because the drummer will hit each time the hi-hat or the snare or the ride cymbal not only with a different velocity, but in a different place (side, center, bell, etc), with a different accent and so adding nuances that would be impossibile to reproduce with a midi sequence and a sampled drum set.
On the other hand my experience has been that if you have just a simple percussive loop sampled live, it will inspire you to play in a way unmatched by any midi sequence.

In the past months I have been working on the issue of creating my own drum loops for the Korg PA2X and -hardware like- all it takes is:

1- a sampling CD (like those from Drums on Demand with a lot of sampled loops already trimmed and matched for volume or Eq).
2- (optional) a program like Sound Forge, to slice the loops and save them in Acid format (but the same task can be done by the Korg and -I guess- also by the Audya).

But the reality is that you are limited only by your imagination! Since examples are worth more than words: I am currently working on a new song, that I hope to post in the next few days: it will be kind of a surprise song, and I will also ask you to guess where the "trick" lies.
Stay tuned.

Diki ,

"Ketron NEVER added one more 'live loop' style after they released the SD-1, so you better be content with what you got"

This statement is not true. http://www.ketron.it/diskLibrary/selezio...ue&idProdotto=4

The whole concept of using audio loops is so that Ketron owners can use/import audio loops from the thousands of sample loops available by multiple manufacturers.

Dreamer,

You said

"A real drummer, sampled while playing a groove for -say- eight bars has nothing to do with a midifile playing eight bars with a sampled drum kit, even a multi-layered one. That is because the drummer will hit each time the hi-hat or the snare or the ride cymbal not only with a different velocity, but in a different place (side, center, bell, etc), with a different accent and so adding nuances that would be impossibile to reproduce with a midi sequence and a sampled drum set."

This is accurate, but why was Ketron able to add sample drums ? Because drums do not need to respond to chord changes.. which in part is the brillance of the SD1 technology.
I know you know this, but many people do not understand how it was done !

Integrating guitar loops etc.. is another ballgame..


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http://www.esnips.com/web/Songs

Just to add another thought ...

The sampled drums were streamed & sync'd directly from the harddrive..

My mistake... Last time I asked this (another thread, another time) nobody said they had... I apologize

But for those overemphasizing the difference between audio loops and what can be done with multi-velocity samples, I encourage you to check out EZ Drummer (and it's expansion packs, especially Twisted Drums, my fave!), DFH2, BFD, etc., all of which SOUND like loops, but are MIDI files playing well recorded kits with room ambience sampled in.

Things have improved SO much in the last three or four years...

And for those that have NEVER even TRIED a little style editing, I encourage you to try. It can be a LOT easier than you think it is, especially when you are just messing with the drum track... If you limit your choice of arranger to whatever best covers what you need with just the ROM styles, you are often making a decision more on the styles than the actual sound and operational aspects.

But learn to edit styles, and you can pick what SOUNDS best and works best for you regardless of whether the ROM styles cover ALL the needed bases...

Not only style editing , but style remix... Taking an acoustic guitar strum from one style and mix with another .. or Baroque string parts mixed with an 16 or 8 beat.

BTW... for the SD1 owners who did not know about the additional styles, they are some of the best styles Ketron has ever made. Call Ketron distributor...

Style remix isn't quite the same issue with loops. As long as you are not editing the loop. swapping them around will be fine...

But with MIDI styles, you can take a picking pattern from one style, add it to another with a different swing factor, and adjust the picking to match (or the drum to match the picking).... Loops, probably not

Look, I'm not criticizing for the sake of it... I've worked with loops in software for years. Finding JUST the right one, especially if you want matching fills, etc., is not easy or cheap. And editing a loop so that it matches something else is VERY tricky. Certainly a LOT more work than most here seem willing to try (they do little MIDI editing, which is hundreds of times easier!).

You see, this all seems great UNTIL you learn about just how much work is needed to progress past the ROM styles. Now, I don't know about you, but it seems to me that the majority of arranger start to get bored because they grow tired of the ROM styles. This is where translated styles comes in. BUT... if the live loop styles are THAT much better in sound, you want them ALL this good. And there goes your expansion possibilities, other than what Ketron offer.

So, they either work for you or they don't. And few realize the mountain they are going to have to climb to get their own loops in. Take this one more step, and start to acknowledge the pitched loops that the Audya will employ (guitar playing, etc.), and you just increased your complexity of creating your own content, or editing existing content, by a factor of 100 or more!

So I VERY much see the Ketron system as ideal for those who will NEVER crack a manual, edit a style, create a style, and are 100% content with what it comes with. Once you factor in the expense of producing melodic loops (you need dozens upon dozens of them more than a simple drum loop), the sheer price of making them (and the few that will buy) will probably make an ever expanding library of them very unlikely.

I'm sorry, but loops all SEEM like a great idea, until you start to examine the restrictions they will place on you... If all you want is a great sounding preset choice, cool, go for it (I'll be checking the Audya out myself, if the opportunity arises), but if you are like me, and like tweaking your styles until they do what YOU want (rather than how they come), knowing about the limitations rather than simply buying into the hype will keep your eyes open wide...