I love my Roland E60 touch screen it makes editing so easy once you get used to it you can never go back.....Yamaha seems to just ignore this great feature.....why?

Touch screens rule..

who wants to touch a button to the side of the screen ..when all you have to do is touch the item you want..right on the screen....ROLAND RULES in a BIG way...

Seriously on a side note....How many folks still believe that the Roland operating system is NOT better than Yamaha or Korg and even Ketron....for shear ease of doing what you want to do..I believe know one does it better...

Any other views.....from someone that has experience with all..

I think you two guys need to get married...

Yamaha prefer to pack a LOT of info on the screen at the same time, especially the MoXS series. You'd have to have very tiny fingers to not end up pressing the wrong thing all the time, IMO!

Touch screens got a pretty bad rep from when they first appeared in keyboards... they were slow to respond, unreliable, harder to read. Things have definitely improved since the Triton days!

I just wish they were bigger, and could display more, and STILL have room for you fingers. That new FantomG display is lovely! Can't wait to see that on an arranger!

Maybe a combination of touch screen for live use, with big enough areas for the fingers to be reliable, and then a mouse input for doing detail work, like sequencing or style edit/creation, where you want to see a LOT of things at the same time... Now THAT would be cool!

As to the fanboy comments from Fran... sorry, but I think EVERY arranger has some strong points and some weak. It is up to US to make sure that flaws are not concealed in the name of one-upmanship. Roland have my thumbs up for things like the Makeup Tools and sequencer, but fall behind with things like the lack of multipads and some odd operational things (that damn ACC cutoff on Chord Type change, for one), so there is no one dominant OS, IMO.

I have no use for touch screens on an arranger, and I am glad Yamaha has chosen not to use them on their products.

Biggest issue is no tactile feedback...users cannot feel the buttons they depress and hence must look at the display while entering information.

Roland's OS is no worse or no better than other OS systems...it's just different.

It's all what you get used to...I found the E60/G70 very easy to navigate...except for the touch screen...and nearly as easy as the Yamaha system, which is what I prefer.

Ian

As an example..you are playing a style..you want to change the drum kit...and lower the level of the snare.....Now how many measures pass by, on your arranger before this comes to be.....?Can you even do this with your arranger?

This is the OS I am talking about...Fanboy..

Lack of multipads is a welcome feature IMO ...isn't bad enough styles in general are very repetitive....then you want to add some cheesy canned MPad loops to make it even worse....its like giving a junkie more heroin

G70 touch screen actually talks back to you as you select..

What does it say, Fran...."oink"?

The pads in the PA series are incredible as I think many here would agree to. Am I allowed to say this?

Zuki, sure you can say that..

Of course you are, buddy...don't worry about the cheerleaders, Franny and Don...just be careful of their little pom poms...do you know they even have matching Roland T-shirts?

Multipads are so cool....they should be on every arranger.

Perhaps the next G-series will catch up and implement them.

Ian

Yeah i wonder when Roland are going to CATCH UP and include Multipads in their arranger keyboards...

its funny how people trash things they dont have. but if the Roland had them i'm sure the cheer leaders rais their pom poms about how amazing they are.

Quoted by Fran Carango: "As an example..you are playing a style..you want to change the drum kit...and lower the level of the snare"

this would have to be the most irrelevant feature i have ever heard of. I am sure if we really all want to, we could dig so deep into our arrangers and pick the useless features that the opposition dont have ... but we dont cos its a waste of time...

It's not Donny or Fran I'm worried about. It's someone with more pom poms and bs....

Nick , Roland used pads more than ten years ago..and No, I still don't miss them..

Ian, I actually do have a matching Roland shirt..it was a gift, I received about 8 years ago, but I dislike wearing shirts with any logos or print on them...so the shirt is still in the wrapper..

Wow, I must disagree. Turn off some tracks and use the pads selectively and you can get very close to real. Cymbal stays for 4 measures followed by a comp on all four by a guitar –then add a soft bass drum on four equals more drive – then a kick snare to lift it all up.

I LOVE THE PADS, I’m glad I got the out, aaaaah.

John C,

Zuki how about a clue does it start with a "D"

I can understand your shame, Fran...that's okay.

I'm proud to wear my Yamaha shirt...who wouldn't be?

They make great products.

You can give yours to Donny...his always wear from the inside out...comes from sticking out his chest so often...

But I did hear you both have matching chicken hats with Roland logos on them...that must be cute...they go with the Roland pom poms I suppose?

Ian

You dislike like midi file playing but you love corny multipads? Hmmmmmmm? sorry but to me they wreak repetitiveness never had a need for them. And if I'm correct on the PA800 the multipads didn't shut off exactly when the style ended? I hated that besides the Fills issues..



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-09-2008).]

Its like we have to get the 'ok' or approval to make a statement but you guys can freely express your opinions and we have o all sit back and just take it...

Donny, you and Fran would have to be the first people I have ever heard of that claim Multipads are corney or useless... And funny enough the keyboards you both have don't include them.

Touch screens have some inherent problems, which is why some electronics manufacturers have recently went back to buttons, menus and sub-menus. Some of this is due to the physical mechanics behind touch screen technology, which has not changed significantly over the past decade.

Similar to buttons, touch screen connections have a certain number of times that the screen button can be accessed. And, like all switches, that number depends upon how hard that area of the screen is pushed.

The biggest problem is replacement. With buttons, in most instances a single button can be replaced at a relatively low cost. Replacement of a touch screen is very costly.

I'll stick with Yamaha's buttons--they've never let me down.

Good Luck,

Gary

They are only corny under your fingers, Donny...they work fine for the rest of us.

If you're just singing over a SMF, you probably wouldn't need them.

Ian

http://www.philadelphiaeagles.com/cheerleaders/Cheerleader.asp?cheerleader_id=8

The pom poms came with the package..

[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 11-09-2008).]

Probably the same one who frightened Donny into buying the E-60...

nick dont forget many of the kbs I've owned DID have MP's



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-09-2008).]

Well why not..I'll throw my bit in...
Firstly..arranger boards I have owned AND used, not just tried in the shop.....

RA-50...VA76...PA1xPro...SD1+...Midjay...E-50...PA800...Tyros 1...PA2xPro...Tyros 2...G70

Okay in order of preference for JUST the operational aspects (but also including Midi aspects as well) as specified by Fran....

Korg PA series and G70/E50 dead even (they do things differently, but just as easily when you figure out how)
VA76
Tyros 2
Tyros 1
SD1+
Midjay
RA-50

Just my view, for what it's worth..

Dennis

After using the Triton for many eyars and the PA2x for 4 months I am glad not to have the touch screen. No messy screen and no misshits.

I wouldn't get one on a cell phone either.Nokia N95 8GB all the way.

I have a Korg pa2x and a T3, and I prefer the T3 non-touch screen.

I have to agree: on a touch screen is MUCH easier to press the wrong "button" (or area); I can't remember the times when, while renaming a style or a multipad, I pressed by mistake the "cancel" button (instead of "OK") and had to start to type the name again.

And... to me multipads are a Godsend: on my PA2X Pro I have created my own multipads with sampled grooves, but even on the Tyros 2 there are multipads that are very tasty and you can always create your own. The problem is that it takes time to understand how this can be done but this means also really making the keyboard your own.

is it just me or did a block of posts in this thread get deleted?

Small touch screens can be a problem if the layouts of the onscreen features have been poorly optimised (Laid out) for the size of the screen. (This is not a fault with the screen but a poorly designed GUI)
The larger the screen the more information can be included on a page, and quite frankly the size and layout of the Tyros 3 screen, is just crying out to have touch sensitivity added.

Bill

Yep....there was a Nigelectomy performed...useless banter was removed.

I have both, touchscreen(E50) and buttons (S900). I prefer buttons.
About multi pads, I have created my own bossa nova pads that I look upon very usefull.
Chico

Chony,

Yea, but admit it...how many times have you touched the Tyros screen thinking it was a touch screen after playing the Pa2?????

c'mon, go ahead, admit it...???

LOL
Al

Whether you like them or not, touch screens are a great implementation for manufacturers because they do not require a physical implementation to trigger a feature. Meaning, the Operating system can be written with any kind of functionality AFTER the board is produced and assembled regardless of the tactile or physical buttons/knobs/sliders physically present on the board.

This is what enables a few manufacturers to deliver new features with Operating system releases.

JMTC
Al

that can be also done with buttons near of the screen !
for example, you have buttons on the right of the screen, and the screen displays the function of each button.

Yamaha have color touch screens! Not on their keyboards but on all STAGEA organ models and on the D-Deck multikeyboard, I think that the integration of a touch screen is more expensive and till now not important enough to integrate in arranger keys?

DDEck => http://www.yamaha.co.jp/d-deck/function/index.html

Touch screens are sometimes intermittent, you very often have to hit the screen twice....no good in a live performance.
The best touch screen so far is Roland, the Korg Icons are too small.
The button press is positive, so that is possibly why Yamaha still use this approach.

I agree with that.......hope that the next Roland arrangers have a just a little bigger display like the Fanthom series.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-10-2008).]

MY 2 cents worth...
I prefer the touch screen on the PA when doing editing, setup and programming.

It's OK also for most operations...however when it comes to seecting some things FAST! I lijke the dedicated buttions!

So... I want a combination!
A good example is to turn ON/OFF Right 1,2,3,L..I would rather hav a buttion for it.

Also, seems limke the button method wouls be better for the sight impared?

Oh, Fran, I wanted to ask...on the G70...if you push too hard on the touch screen...does it say' Hey buddy not so hard'?????

My PA2XPRO does. :-)

Lee

LOL

Correct ... my 'archaic' kn6000 has buttons around the screen next to the style/function/voice/ I want to access ... easy as can be ... playing some of the touch screen boards at Frankievee's a few weeks ago made me realize that a touch screen would take some getting used to for me ...
I DO BELIEVE that technics has one of, if not THE easiest Op system going ... it's a damned shame they left the market ... ...

t.

Well, there are more userfriendly, better and "easy to work with" OS, but
unfornately not on the brands who carry on develope/build arr. keyboards.
I still don't understand why any of the manufacturers of todays brands
don't buy, borrow or steal some of the Technics' way of do things.
Composer, Panel-memory and not to forget Dynamic Accomp who was a brilliant
feature that made the styles very lively by give a kind of human tuch in a
different way than by use of the ordinary fills!

Cheers
GJ

Gunnar ... I agree totally ...
t.

Aaaah, never... I guess I'm just more comfortable with the T3. Its a love-hate relationship, although now I'm leaning more towards the hate part.

It may sound childish, but I really want to punish Yamaha for putting out such a lousy update to the T2...

Yes I still have it ....almost made the biggest mistake in selling it in haste...
I have seen the light and glad I kept it & thoroughly enjoy the way I can make it sound on stage & all of its wonderful editing features.

Good luck with yours.

Chony Id love to hear you elaborate a little on this if you would......many perspective buyers on the fence T3 would also.

Thanks



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-10-2008).]

musicmanht.., cost isn't really the issue in terms of putting the touch screen into an arranger. Proof that cost isn't as serious of a factor is the new Korg M50. This synth/workstation has a touch screen and the unit is selling for less than the PSR-S900.., and about $100 more than the PSR-S700.

I know the M50 isn't an arranger, but if Korg can put something like this in a synth/workstation and keep the price just barely over $1,000 then the issue of cost really isn't a factor.

I don't think Yamaha has any intention of adding a touch screen to any of their arrangers.., and if they did you'd bet (based on Yamaha pricing) they'd majorly jack the price to the consumer.

Also it wasn't until the release of the Motif XS that yamaha finally got into check and added that nice color screen. Korg's been using the touch screen since the Trinity.., and carried it over to their arrangers. Roland's using it on the G-70 and the new V-Synth GT has a killer touch disply.. Roland was also using a color screen on the Fantom X when Yamaha's Motif ES still used the old mean green.

I don't see Yamaha adding touch screens to arrangers anytime soon.., and IF they did you'd find it on a Tyros replacement (which will probably translate to an additional $200-$400) to the consumer.

The touch screen is not a ral big cost issue..I sell Industrial PC's for use in the plant floor and the upcharge for a 15" touch screen is only $175...for 15"

A 10" Touch screen with controller is about $100 Cost.

I do think a touch screen is harder for a sight impared artist to use as compared with all buttons???, Maybe that's why Yamaha doesn't use them?


Lee

The Roland operating system and user interface has been the single biggest factor in their retention of my as a repeat customer from the E-20 through the E-30, E-70 and E-86 to the E-80.

It has nothing to do with the touch screen (although that is a boon on the E-80 and shames the Tyros range). It's got more to do with Roland understanding what professional players need at their fingertips in live performance.

As I've mentioned before, I bought a Tyros at launch, but sold it shortly after and went back to my (by then ancient) E-86. I couldn't hack the woeful Yamaha user interface live.

Roland still lead the pack at this, and by a country mile.

I agree that the Touch screen is not really a cost issue...but I'm sure you'll agree, as it has already been mentioned by Gary, that replacing a button or two, would be far cheaper than replacing a defective touch screen.

Sure, whilst under warranty, it would not be an issue to the user, but it would certainly be a great benefit to a long term user or a second hand buyer.

Yamaha has wisely kept to the buttons, making their already superior OS and user interface (in my opinion) even more enticing.

Ian

Not in rolands world, I love to find out how much roland charges now to replacement the touch screen for the G70. I'm sure its not $100.00. I replaced my screen on the Em2000 and it cost my $400 without labor. That was the price from roland usa out west. So I only imagine what the replacment cost for a touch screen is now!!

I had a damaged( by UPS ) screen on my G70, $450 to replace it in 2007.

Personally, I know of two touch screen failures...Stephen's G70 (shipping damage)..and Frankie's VA-7 (probably shipping damage too)..I have owned touch screens for 10 years and have never had a single problem..

MC, as for the EM2000..they definitely had pixel problems..I had 3 units (still have one)..they all developed pixel line problems..Compared to the G1000 display..zero problems..that enlarged EM2000 screen was just a bad one..clarity wise and pixel missing wise..

The touch screen is the best display system for me...especially the trouble free ones..

Even a "reliable" or "trouble free" touch screen can be damaged, either through shipping or simply whilst moving the instrument to and from gigs...accidents do happen...and, of course,some screens can also be damaged by sunlight.

A replacement cost of over $400 is rather daunting.


Ian

Ok another 50/50 topic....so on touch screens its a wash.

Any component can get damaged in transit so what is your point? Your S900 and Tyros 3 aren't any less susceptible. In addition component failure rates average about 1-2% so even brand new products can and do have failures. Not long ago end users reported some brand new Yamaha arranger products that had problems from the onset. Be it poor workmanship or standard component failure it happened, even to your beloved Yamaha.

Touch screens have been around for a long, long time and have been used in many applications (mall kiosks for example) where there use is 1000 fold compared to what anyone would ever use on an arranger. They are tried, true, and quite reliable. On earlier keyboards that utilized touch screens problems existed primarily because the products CPU didn't have enough horsepower to handle all functions quickly and that would slow down the touch screens response time. This is a problem with the manufacturers trying to cut costs and is by no means a reflection of touch screens being sub standard to a standard TFT or LCD screen.

As someone pointed out even Yamaha uses touch screens on their very high end MI and Organ products. It seems they choose not to on the Tyros and PSR products most likely due to bean counters wanting to yield higher profits.

My point is that it would cost over $400 to replace a defective screen...buttons would be far cheaper.

Simple, eh?


Ian

Do the math guys. A Yamaha's buttons (considering Yamaha's build quality) would die long before the touch screen.

Yes.., touch screens have their (number of presses), but I can't tell you how many people I know with original Korg Trinity's using the "original touch screen" to date with no problems and have been giggin with them since day one. Same goes for the original Triton!

If I had a Yamaha arranger with a touch screen (based on Yamaha's build history).., I'd be 10 times more worried about the buttons going before the touch screen.

Do the math guys...replacing a screen is far more expensive than buttons.

A whole screen vs a button....mmmm....some people must be using that "new" math.

Point of the math (seeing is it completey went over your head) is that you'd be replacing buttons LONG before you'd be replacing the screen. By the time you replace the number of buttons that would fail (common to Yamaha's arrangers) over years of giggin would easily exceed the cost of a screen replacement.

"MC, as for the EM2000..they definitely had pixel problems..I had 3 units (still have one)..they all developed pixel line problems..Compared to the G1000 display..zero problems..that enlarged EM2000 screen was just a bad one..clarity wise and pixel missing wise.."

Fran, that's too bad, when I bought my EM2000 at samash, they also had the G1000 for the same price(they were side by side.) I picked up the EM2000 because of the onboard speakers and the bigger screen. If I knew that screen was going to be a problem later on, I would purchased the G1000 that day and I bet you I would have probably still have it today. I ended up selling the EM2000 because I could barely see the screen. Oh well.......



[This message has been edited by mc (edited 11-11-2008).]

One screen...cost:$400 plus.:O

One button...Cost: comparatively negligible.

Screen broken..arranger no go. .

Button broken...usually a work around until repaired.

Some people are slow to grasp things... ...

Ian

I like to have BOTH...Touch screen for setup, configuration, programming styles, AND ESPECIALLY for entering text.. I hate that multi-button push deal with Yamaha to enter text, BUT buttons for most playing situatons as if your moving FAST..buttons are better than touch screen.

That's unless we get a 10" -15" touch screen some day. :-)

Like I use on my manufacturing systems I design, program & sell.

Lee

So are we to assume that an LCD screen on an arranger/workstation is less prone to having issues? Considering Touch Screens are made to withstand the rigors of daily use I don't think that's the case. Do you seriously think companies would use touch screens in ATM's, Information kiosks in malls, and Airports if they were that prone to failure? Not a chance!

A broken button can often take as much time to replace as a broken screen dependent upon the keyboard its used in. It's not the parts cost that will kill you its the labor.

Some people can't seem to grasp the obvious too. Considering there are THOUSANDS of origianl Korg Trinity's and Triton Classics out there STILL RUNNING on the original touch screens is evidence enough of how well they handle gig use and daily pressing and tapping from fingers.

Taking into account the failure rate for these screens on the current and past models one should be able "grasp the concept" that given Yamaha's lower build quality on their arranger line a touch screen would most likely outlast the buttons themselves... When a Yamaha button fails you can't "always replace just that button".

Exactly...much easier to see and use in a playing situation....but, most importantly there should be some form of tactile feedback when you press an area....that's what's missing, as well as a delineated area...i.e. raised borders, or sections perhaps?

Ian

Uhhhhh.., doesn't the MediaStation have a massive touch display compared to the other arrangers out there? (this isn't an open to bash the MS, but to point out the MS uses a pretty large touch display)

Touchscreens large or small...no tactile feedback...no raised or delineated areas...may as well be pressing on a piece of paper.

Expensive to replace.

I'm glad the Tyros1/2/3 and S-series don't have them.

Ian

Roland's touchscreen is the so awesome .....I just love it BIG TIME...there is nothing better out there on an arranger..

Touch screen technology is the same as switched except they rely on horizontal vertical capacitance intetersections to switch a functions that can be switched with a physical switch.

The N95 Phone has FAR more feature then the IPhone. They simply could not make an Iphone II out of an Iphone because it had a touch screen. ANYTHING that can be written into firmware can be switched by any switch in a particular mode.

Would not mind a notebook touch screen But on a small screen its a PIA. nothing can take the place of tactile response.

Wasn't there a thread on Tyros buttons SINKING into the keyboard body a while back?
Thank goodness for touch screens.
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/011156.html

http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/017793.html


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-11-2008).]

First I must say that's very good that Yamaha is using buttons!
Since I am visually impaired I get more access to the instruments features with buttons.
I have plaied both the Pa800 and the Pa1X and I had very limited access to the instrument. I have also tried the Roland E80 with the same result.
So me and other blind and visually impaired musicians really want buttons, and NO, stupid inaccessible touch screens!

You all are forgetting the cost to an arranger of adding buttons for every function that can easily be done with a touch screen. Take the Abacus, for instance... Absolutely bristling with buttons and sliders.

Absolutely too expensive as well (and a large part of that expense is the physical controllers).

Touch screens offer a way for the manufacturer to include FAR more live control than could be afforded to us at the same price if all these functions HAD to have physical buttons. Personally, I find absolutely ZERO problems with operating my Roland with the touch screen. OK, with one exception, I WOULD have preferred a different location for a couple of the screen buttons... But I would be happy for them to merely have the location changed, rather than have them changed to physical buttons.

At least, with a touch screen, there exists the POSSIBILITY of the manufacturer changing the layout with an upgrade, but a physical button in the wrong place (and we have ALL bitched about that one!) cannot be corrected without buying another model.

And sorry, but reports of bad buttons outnumber bad touch screen reports hundreds (probably tens of thousands, in real figures) to one... I've been stabbing at mine in the heat of playing for over three years. Not a HINT of a problem. My Triton (original one) is STILL working fine, I know guys who have used them six gigs a week for as long as they have been out, in outdoor, seaside venues. No problems.

A bad button layout is just as hard to overcome as a bad screen layout and slow response (which has completely gone, nowadays). You can keep sticking to older systems as long as they keep providing them, but operational ease will suffer, or the price will go up, as manufacturers chose between buttons or no control at all.

BTW, Roland have a neat system where, if you press and HOLD any physical button, the edit page for that function pops up on the screen. VERY fast, very intuitive. Others should copy...

Not enough, mind you.

But hey, this would be an empty stadium if it ALL were

Diki I love this feature

I've seen FAR worse things overlooked than what Scott said. There must be something I don't know to cause him to be banned for that.
DonM