do you just basically accept what the manufacturer has given you with out stripping down EACH style and make it YOUR own sound?...

Ohhhhh. good question Donny! I'll throw in...., how many do "detailed" editing of their sounds (beyond simple adjustment such as touch response, and DSP)? How many get in there and make more detailed use of the ADSR, filters, and LFO settings?

Let me be the sacrificial lamb, lol...

The only tweaks I've done to my T1 & T2 were the global EQ suggestions made way back when.

As far as editing styles and beyond...nothing...not my bag, I'm not overly inclined that way and there aren't many tunes I've ever tried to perform but couldn't find a nice pre-made style either on the board itself or on the web...



------------------
Bill in Dayton

I spend a lot of time customizing styles so that I will have my own stamp on the music I play.

Having said that...when I do an official Yamaha demo/clinic I always use the on-board factory styles, and like Bill, I have yet to find a tune that I can't find a great style for.

As far as programming/editing sounds...when your arranger already has terrific sounds, then there is no need...my T3/S900 are fine as is, no complaints...pianos, guitars, saxes, strings etc. are all excellent.

I have my old Jupiter 8 back again...that gives me lots to play with as far as programming cool sounds.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-11-2008).]

Letting the manufacturer dictate "YOUR SOUND" is not my idea of being an arranger KB player. And this is why many sound well how can I put it "Canned" Putting your own tag on styles as Ian states in his post is spot on...Squeak is on the money also....I have never heard a arranger kb sound ready for the stage that came "Out of the Box"....
I personally take EVERY SINGLE STYLE & SMF and completely strip it down and rebuild it up to my standards Part By Part...with every editable feature I can find if necessary. This is why when I hear people say this sounds bad or that sounds weird....I know they haven't taken the time to DIG into te OS and make it sound the way you want....or maybe some people don't know how or are too lazy & dont care? Or may they think it sounds good until someone says something? Playing an arranger KB goes way beyond just turning it on and hitting a few sounds & styles which many do you are in command of a whole band & need to know how to orchestrate every single part as if the band was next to you on stage.
does it take time YES......is it fun....YES....is it worth it YES.....will they do it?... that's up to the individual who wants to sound great not just "Out of the Box" On top of this you need the play well also....& please SAVE everything you edit 3x or you'll be a very unhappy camper if you lose it all...All these KBs have the ability to tweak some better then others but in some way its in there...Go For It

All you are doing is editing the part that someone else played, though, Donny... before you get ALL worked up about it.

Take a commercial SMF or style, and then part by part replace out completely the original with your own playing, and THEN you can lay claim to it being your OWN work...

OK, leave in the drums if you have to! Personally, I don't have good drummer chops, so if I edit a commercial file, I often don't do much more than add in a bunch of ghost notes and flams, etc., although the dynamics I jack around with a LOT...

Most commercial SMF's, styles and web-found stuff was all programmed before keyboards started having multi-velocity drum sounds. Tweaking those until the hit the cross points correctly is a lot of work, but worth it, IMO...

Sure, OK, spending ANY time editing SMF's and styles is perhaps more than a lot of people here do, but there is still a whole lot further you can take them, if you want to REALLY call them yours...

When you edit SMFs, do you change patches too so that they aare keyboard specific as opposed to GM or XG? My thought is that would be the best use of editing for me besides essentials like volumes and pans.

If so, you obviously have to keep a master SMF file available so that you can start all over with the next new arranger, right?

How much TIME do you spend editing styles & sounds on your arranger? As much as necessary.

Lets get realistic here. Most performers use 10 to 15 onboard styles at best, and some performers, particularly those that use lots of SMF files and MP3s, use even less. The vast majority don't know how to tune styles and SMF files, and for the most part, they don't care to crack an instruction manual to find out.

Most days I use a mix of onboard styles and third-party styles, all of which range from good to excellent. The manufacturer doesn't dictate which style to use, or how it sounds--YOU DO! You have all the controls at your fingertips--it's just a matter of learning how to use them to YOUR advantage. If the styles and midi files sound good to both you and your audiences, that's all that matters. If they don't sound good to you or your audiences, open the instruction manual and learn how to use the keyboard's onboard programs and features.

Gary

Hi Donny,
I spend lots of time messing round with styles, for me it's just a hobby.

best wishes
Rikki

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dnj:
[B]

Diki...I've done this many times recording my own parts into styles & smf when needed for a certain song it is very effective to get just the right sound you desire. The main thing is to mix & match and DIG In to your sound IMO.

Correctamundo Gary.....the "Easy 20" does it all night long!

I think you're painting with a pretty broad brush, Donny. To suggest that anyone who doesn't tweak the styles they use will sound "canned" I think think is just wrong.

The overall sound is only part the arranger, because there's so many different ways to use one. I use full keyboard mode, and between the way I chord and play bass lines, I've been told its pretty good stuff. It hardly sounds canned.

There's alot of different ways to use this technology effectively. Those guys who want to tweak or create styles, that's great...but don't suggest those of us who don't are lesser players or performers.




------------------
Bill in Dayton

Guess what...? IT'S ALL CANNED

Whether you make your styles from scratch, edit SMF's, don't do a damn thing but hit the ON button, you are still playing with a machine

This can range from the sublime to the horrible, but it is still canned, whichever way you slice it...

Do yourselves a favor, and just OCCASIONALLY, try playing with real people..! Refresh your soul, energize your passion, reintroduce yourself to TRUE 'interactive' accompaniment

Then go back and work on those sequences!

Bill....by "canned" I mean factory sounding without any custom editing on the part of the player.....your basically letting the manufacturer give your what THEY think is good sounding in their KB and the player accepts it & plays what's there. No matter how you cut it, an arranger is a automatic music machine.... So you sound just like the next guy. In a Blind play test I want to say WOW!!!!!! that sounds awesome......not oh yea, that's a yamaha or korg etc, etc, with that generic typical sound. But Bill if your happy with it so be it....I prefer to "Hot Rod" my sound a bit.
Believe me its not that difficult to Dig in a bit and stir up what the factory gives you...they are not right all the time.

enjoy what you play.


and to answer Diki....I played with a band 25 years so yes I do know what is is to interact....but times have changed & so has my musical direction which I'm very satisfied with being a OMB for the last 17 years. But I still love all kinds of music & anyway it is created by any amount of people is all fine as long as the music is good to my ears.

carry on.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-11-2008).]

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-11-2008).]

You'll notice I DIDN'T say abandon anyone's OMB career..

Just, from time to time, dip back into the well of souls, and take a reality check on all this canned nirvana. Open ears, open minds...

Hmmm...I think if you had ten Tyros 2 owner record the same tune, you'd find some variety, for sure...

Diki- I perform with my quartet several times a month and play "acoustically" so my soul and passion are both in working order, lol...

I owned a Korg triton pro x once---I learned very quickly that sequencing is not for me...I couldn't get rid of it fast enough...




------------------
Bill in Dayton

Diki & everyone else here come to the JAM in Louisiana January 18,19,20,21......& Im sure we can play all together and interact ok?

Yes I create my own styles.
Occasionally I would use an onboard style but that is not the reason why I bought an arranger. I got an arranger to make my own.
I typically have around 15-20 user styles that I use on gigs. Now every two or three months, I create a few more styles. And so that my sound does not stay repetitive I also edit my sounds a lot. So I don’t have to buy an arranger every six months.
To me, that is the point of an arranger is to have the ability to create styles and sounds to have your own sound.
It generally takes me around 2-3 hours to create one style.
Understand that I generally do not use all 8 tracks for a style. Typically, I may use 2 or 3 drum/percussion tracks, and 3-4 for other sounds.



[This message has been edited by to the genesys (edited 11-11-2008).]

There's going to be a bass player and drummer and guitarist all there? I hope I can make it...

Just kidding (a bit!)

I use factory styles just as they are. Why mess with the pros. There are many aspects of style play that allow one to be original, taken the time to do so. I probably spend as much time on my arrangements than most do on tweeking the original style.

I agree with Diki - canned is canned, no matter how you cut it.

I don't use smf. That's where the next guy coming in will sound the same. How many times can one listen to the same New York, New York smf?

........"Do yourselves a favor, and just OCCASIONALLY, try playing with real people........"

I'll stick with just me and the machine! I remember playing with other musicians years ago. Besides worrying about everyone getting to the gig I won't miss my drummer with a hangover........ or my bass player's ex-girlfriend in the audience....... or my singer's case of the clap..................

No thanks.................. -charley

I'll let Don M tell you who's gonna be there at the Jam...I think you'll be very surprised and insanely happy at the amount of talent that will be all in one room for 4 days of music & fun......common Diki you know you want to attend

A constant chore. I try to use pretty much the same bass and drums so it sounds like the same 'band' is playing the tunes. I usually, not always, remove string sections - I think, at times it sounds a little hoaky, a single act with a full string section. I usually change the brass licks and fills to something a little softer. Everything is saved as a registration, I very rarely just pick a style and run on a gig.
Ciao,
Jerry

Jerry we all "MAKE IT" different....thats the beauty of using an arranger KB.
All the tools are inside, NOT using them is a sin.

Good luck to you

Working on my styles is very much like having a band rehearsal and working on what I want to hear. It’s rare that I find a style or OTS setting that fits my taste.

With my KN7 I never recorded a sequence without tweaking the style. I adjusted the style because it was fun and on the KN7 it was very easy.

I am now doing the same on my S900 do to a remark Gary made –“To lazy to crack the manual and improve” Something like that – But he was ever so right, so I did get off my but and I am tweaking my styles. Thanks Gary.

Why I tweak my styles -----
A style can fit one song well and sound like it needs repair on the next song.

Sometimes it is as easy as changing the drum set or bass – or deleting one or more tracks to make it fit. I do not try making a style from scratch. For me tweaking is part of being OMB.

IMHO, John C.

especially since within 5 minutes you really can do change that style a lot.

i create my own styles also, but not too often, as i noticed i could tweak heavely the existing ones and i am happy with the results. sometimes it takes me 5 minutes, sometimes 30 minutes, when i create from scratch probably 1 to 1,5h.

main modifications are volumes level, pan and efx. sometimes i do revoicing and more in depth tone editing. that happenes when mostly when i import a converted style.

i realize once again that roland really makes this easy with the G and E series. it's their best ideas in a while...

So we REALLY need to make sure that Roland don't drop it like almost every other good idea they have had!

RIP Chord Sequencer, RIP Orchestrator, RIP pads... the list goes on and on

Today I spent approx 12 hours today editing & tweaking my styles for the Christmas Holiday Season on my E60. The makeup tools are a Godsend for an arranger KB player.It's amazing what you can do once you really dig deep into the Roland OS.

I sometimes wonder just how popular Yamaha's would be, were it not for the extensive 3rd party software that enable these machines to do much of the stuff that a Roland can do 'in the box'...

It's a darn good job that guys like J. Sørenson and others exist, and do it FOR FREE. Because that's a hell of a lack of internal editing provided by Yamaha themselves, and little in the way of essential software they have provided themselves.

You guys REALLY need to thank him, and send him a Christmas gift or two!

"I sometimes wonder just how popular Yamaha's would be, were it not for the extensive 3rd party software that enable these machines to do much of the stuff that a Roland can do 'in the box'..."


Probably not as much Diki......after-all less is more in their eyes financially because Yamaha's intent is to make you keep BUYING KBs year after year.... But not to worry Ian will chime in soon and explain.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-12-2008).]

Why do I get all the grief on this forum, but the two of you are constantly sniping each other?

Can't you guys just dial it back for just a TINY while?

Z E R O

If I wanted to make styles I would have bought a Motif XS8. There are thousands of styles available that I can choose from. I hardly believe me or anyone else can come up with something truly original within a 12 note scale and five parts...

Some people like to tweak voices in synths as well. I used what came with them. I want to create music not styles. I'll buy the styles to back the melody and lyric. Just like I would hire David Foster to arrange a song, or Michael Omatain, Maurice White, whomever. If I could play like a real drummer, bass player, horn player, guitarist, etc I would do it all myself on a real workstation.

I will use the MIDI in a SW sampler though. But I bought the Arranger because of it's arrangements. I worked for years "playing all the parts" The Arranger is much better. Allows me to concentrate on chordal harmony amd Melody and let the "players in the Yamaha do what they do best" to support my songs. There are so many styles available of every type. No need to reinvent the wheel.

That said I do not record with EFX when tracking individual parts, nor may I keep panning and volume the same. Once its in Sonar as a raw audio file I can then mix it up and send MIDI through voices other then the Yamah's insome cases.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 11-13-2008).]

You're so right, Diki, Jorgen and Michael Bedesem deserve a lot of credit and thank yous.

I'm especially grateful to the latter who created a program just for me called "StyleAdjust" which allows me to s-t-r-e-t-c-h the style to any degree I wish...very handy for getting some cool parts for my assembled styles, as well as allowing the style to work in tunes with odd time signatures.

I don't think Roland's style creator will do that, will it?


Yes, I seriously think us Yamaha users would be all the less richer without Jorgen and Michael...I for one, am extremely appreciative of their work and dedication to taking Yamaha arrangers to another level...all at no cost to the user.

Awesome.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-13-2008).]

Not to disappoint you, Donny, I will chime in. Ding!

bbbb Wheres your email address?

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-13-2008).]

I switched from the PA2x for the Yamaha BECAUSE of the style support and millions of styles out there. paid for and free. I don;t mind paying $.50 for something that would have taken me a few hours to create. My time is worth far more than that.

Some people like to make or alter the tools to build their house.Others would rather spend 100% of their time using tools already available. The results are the same to the end user in that either they like it or they don't. They could not care less how much time or tweaking was invested.

Sometimes a special tool is needed...it is so nice to have one available...especially at no charge.

It's nice to be able to modify/assemble styles to one's own taste, rather than have to accept that of others.

Ian

Some people like off the rack, some people like bespoke tailoring... Eventually, it all boils down to the fact that you are wearing clothes. How well you want those clothes to fit and look is up to you...

Off the rack can sometimes be perfect. Sometimes not. Then it is up to you if close enough IS close enough. On a gig, you don't have the luxury of replacing that which doesn't fit with something that does by using non-realtime measures, other keyboards, software, whatever. It's at times like these that doing a bit of surgery on the style pays dividends...

You have mail.

Hi Diki



Thanks for your most kind words!

At the moment I am struggling updating my software to T3.

Have a nice weekend
Jørgen

------------------
The Unofficial YAMAHA Keyboard Resource Site

I personally dont use not even 1 single Style or Sounds from Factory, EVER!
Everything is done from Scratch, not even touched or reworked from Factory.

Nedim these custom made from scratch styles are for what type of music?

It is usually for any type of music but i mostly deal with the Oriental world.
I create commercial styles and sounds and you
can read more about it here: www.basaristudios.com

That's really true. The phenomenal Mr. Jorgen Sorensen, and of course Mrs. Heidrun Dolde.

Greetings
Peter

Nedim good luck it seems your really doing it well.Great website.

Good luck to you

Hi Jorgen,
are the T3 styles so different ?? ie they won't load into current 3rd party software like yours, micheals & OMB??
best wishes
Rikki





[This message has been edited by rikkisbears (edited 11-17-2008).]

I agree. A large part of the reason I sold the PA2x at a loss after four months and bought the Yamaha was the availability of styles. I passed on a real workstation because I wanted STYLES. Lots of them. At a cost or free. Yamaha fit the bill.....and the voices aren't half bad either,

No styles and I have a Motif X8 and 6000 "phrases" to chose four from to run arpeggios and create something.