I am in an instrument challenged worship band. We lost our keyboard player (and the drummer he would bring with him on occasion) and now have a 3 guitar “band.” Consequently, I would like to add a back-up band; the kind you find in the style section of an arranger keyboard.

I am not a piano/keyboard player, but I did purchase a DGX 300 a couple of years ago in order to play worship (and other) music with a back-up band at home. (When playing contemporary Christian worship music, I primarily use the rock and ballad styles on this keyboard.) Unfortunately, it seems to me that when I plug the DGX 300 into my sound system, or the churches sound system, the sound emanating from the styles (back up band) section of my keyboard sounds flat/canned.

Seeking to remedy this situation, and to increase the style selection available to me, I decided to upgrade to a Yamaha PSR S900. However, I ended up taking it back because the sound quality of the styles (back-up band) I was hearing through my (and the church’s) sound system, didn’t seem to be that much of an improvement over those of my DGX 300. [I did love the fact that the S900 has quite a few dedicated worship styles! Another thing I like about the Yamaha arranger keyboards is that you can access the “back-up band” by simply playing a single note (or two) on the left hand side of the keyboard; which makes it easy for a novice keyboard player to access the various styles using a chord chart.]

I have also tried out a Korg PA50 and PA800 at my local Guitar Center. To my ears, the Korg styles had livelier bass guitars, and a brighter sound than the Yamaha’s. These keyboards weren’t plugged into a sound system, so this might be simply a function of better speaker quality in the Korg keyboards. On the other hand, the Korg’s didn’t possess any of the dedicated worship styles like the Yamaha S900, and their rock styles sounded to me to be more, well… European? The Korg ballad styles were pretty good though, and the touch screen on the PA800 was very nice!

So my question is this. Which arranger keyboard, in your opinion, has the best sounding styles (back up band); and which would be the best arranger keyboard for a contemporary Christian worship band (specifically from a “back-up band” perspective)?

Yamaha? Korg? Roland? Ketron?

Thanks for your help!

Hi there,

on all top end arrangers you will find styles to cover every category, each have their strengths and weaknesses so really its up to you to choose and beleive me you have a lot to choose from...

u have mentioned Roland, Korg, ketron and yamaha. in my honest opnion if u are particularly lookng for worship styles with a nice bright sound then try and find a second hand technics KN 6500 or a KN 7000...

technics really have something unique to most other keyboard vendors... just a completely unique instrument - very original and advanced in both sound and functionality... the only issue is that the company is no longer in production...

I own a korg PA 800 as of about 5 hours ago. (literally i just got it today) and comming from a yamaha background, it really has an awesome live crisp sound compared to some other top end keyboards...

Also remember there is also the possiblity of downloading third party styles for any keyboard as well. you might find yamaha to have a big strength here and there is also a bit on offer on the Korg Forums I have found lately...

good luck!
Nick

very hard to answer. and no way you can be objective here... you need to listen and decide for yourself.

that being said, yamaha has many styles appropriate for the genre you're doing. it even has several styles called "worship" just as you mentioned. anyway, you might find yamaha styles a little too cd-like for p&w music.

korg's styles sounds crisper and clearer because korg sounds are generally more open, hights are more pronouced. while this is good for solo instruments, i find the styles a little bit too brigh. just very little.

roland has good general sounds and styles. i like them best. but that's just me. for playing live, or even recording, roland's advantage is six fills compared to 2-3 in korg. also, the styles are more "band-like" than yamaha, the drums sets really make a difference. and dont forget cover and make-up tools.

but the bottom line is you have to decide, do not expect anything else from here but personal oppinions and biased advice.

I don't know much about worship music, so cannot give specific suggestions. All I can say -out of personal experience- is that:

1- the Yamaha Tyros 2 has maybe the best ballads, with a lot of strumming guitars and that -I guess- could work just fine in a worship contest, even if you wrote that you already have REAL guitarists to play with (but you could always mute the guitar tracks of the styles). The Tyros also has specific Soul/Gospel styles, even if they tend to sound a bit repetitive.

2- Like you wrote, Korg instruments (PA 800 or PA2 X Pro) have a more "live" sound, but maybe not as many good ballads to choose from, like Yamaha has;

3- The Roland G-70 has in my opinion the best Slow Rock and Rock & Roll styles, but in the ballad department lags behind Yamaha; the drums, on the other hand, have a more live sound, just like Korg.

So I guess that you should try to listen to all the three brands and decide which one is best for your specific needs.

I cannot speak about Technics since I never owned one; I have owned Ketron instruments and they could indeed work for your needs, but they are difficult to find where you live, so I prefer to give you a practical advice, like: "this is what I would do if I were you".

[This message has been edited by Dreamer (edited 11-12-2008).]

HI Nick,

Congratulations on your new Pa800. Welcome to the Korg club. Isn't it great getting a new keyboard. I'm still exploring the features of my Pa2xpro. It's a very deep keyboard indeed.

Best of luck and have fun playing.

Al

One thing to keep in mind is that many style are already tranferred/transposed into the other keyboard makes. For instance, many Roland G70 styles have been converted for use with the Yamaha PSR series. And many Yamaha styles have been edited to work with Korg and Roland. Additionally, most mid to upper level arrangers have the means to do this editing yourself, if you become so inclined.

Have you considered the possible use of software based arranging such as Band In A Box or One Man Band? There are a few others that permit you to pre-select chords and choose from a vast library of rhythms. The outlay for BIAB is reasonable and you have way more style to choose from than a hardware arranger.

Otherwise, watch out for those of us who proclaim that manufacturer A,B or C is the BEST. It's only the best if it is right for you. Lastly, you do not necessarily have to have the most expensive model to get all of the good arranger styles, just don't buy the entry model - you'lll be sorry.

First and foremost, you've already tried the top manufacturers arranger keyboards, which is good. What you failed to do was test them using headphones, which is very important. Headphones eliminate using the keyboard's onboard speakers, which very often are custom tuned to get the best sound out of the keyboard.

I believe the problem is not the keyboards you used, but instead the church sound system. Most church sound systems, while very expensive, are not particularly good for reproducing high-quality music produced by electronic musical devices. The systems are primarily for vocal reproduction, and most of the systems I worked with many years ago were EQ'd to Flat.

My best advice is to first check out the church sound system and try to tune it to sound as close to your keyboard speakers as possible. Most are multi-channel, and you may be able to assign a couple channels for just the music, while the others are still in the flat mode for sermons and choirs.

Good Luck,

Gary

This is what I do for a living. I lead worship with a guitarist and a Korg Pa1xPro. I have been very pleased with the Korg and have used it exclusively in worship for the last 3-4 years. I was running it midi'd to a Yammie DGX-500 for 88 keys and better piano sound. About 5 months ago I biult a tower based computer from scratch for nothing but music functionality and am running Ableton Live software on it. This software allows you to import an mp3, wav, or midi file then assign marker points to trigger from the computer keyboard.

You could assign say, verse to key 1, chorus to key 2, bridge to key 3, etc. All you do then is press the right key on the keyboard within the last measure of the current section and it auytomatically cues and fires that section. You're not stuck to the form of the song.

You also might want to check out www.interactiveworshiplive.com

They offer pre-recorded wav files of many popular worship songs. Each song has a wav file for every track, bass, drums, loop, guitars, vocals, brass, etc. You can then decide what to mute for a particular service and essentially "fill in" extra parts.

What I did was took one of the files and mixed all the parts down to a single mp3 file so that it loads super quick, becuase I'll always have the same musician and set up for now.

Hope all this helps. If you need further advice or ideas to share, give me a call. I've been in worship ministry over 20 years, played piano, 35 years, taught private lessons over 25 years and am working on my second music degree.

Give me a call if you want, 620-660-1899.

Jeff

Destiny Ministries
LionsGate Music School

If you're looking for a keyboard who are loaded with styles that sounds like a "real band",
you should take a look at Ketron as well. SD1 and SD5 are brilliant stuff when it comes to
play "as it is".
But as always, the taste are very individual, so the best solution are always to try out
before buy, your ears and taste are the right judge to ask.

Good Luck in your hunt for a new "band".
GJ

I looked around a bit for a used Technics keyboard, and didn't see those particular models for sale anywhere. But it appears that most people who own these really like them.

So I'm wondering if you can download the newer, higher end Yamaha styles for the Korg PA800 or PA500? And I'm wondering if the these styles would sound any better on the Korg keyboards than they do on the Yamaha's?

You voiced my sentiments exactly with the "Yamaha's styles sounding more like a CD than a live band" comment!

...I've never seen a Roland arranger in a music store, but I've read one of the threads about the GW-8 here. This might be what I'm looking for, and at a very good price point too; but I don't want to bite on anything unless I play it first!

By the way, so far, everybody's responses so to my question are very good! I'm duly impressed!

So again, I find myself wondering if I could get any of the Yamaha praise and worship styles for the Korg PA800 or PA500. This for me, would be the best of both worlds--assuming the Yamahas styles sound "more live" on the Korg keyboard. (I kind of doubt that this would be the case, but then, even having those worship styles would make the Korg keyboards "a good thing" as far as I'm concerned.

Have I considered computer software arranger programs? Yes, but I don't like the idea of having to take the time to set up my music in advance on the computer. I guess I'm spoiled by my Yamaha DGX 300 in that regard--give me a chord chart and I'm good to go.



[This message has been edited by polarshift (edited 11-12-2008).]

I think most anything will do a good job if YOU like the styles...

But I feel that, in a church, there is a little extra you need to do to the styles to make them work in a large environment. You mention the washed out sound of the Yamaha's, and yes, while on the whole I would tend to agree to a degree, I think you would be pleasantly surprised at how better they can sound by removing ALL the reverb (you are already in a large space - why add MORE?) and punching up the drum levels and bass (if needed) and removing any compression from within the arranger if it has one.

You should also take into account any compression that may be being applied to the church's sound system, and see if overly aggressive guitar playing, or singers that 'eat' the mike are ducking down the backing from the arranger. Compress those separately from the arranger...

Lastly is the matter of monitoring... to play well, to FEEL that the arranger IS a drummer, bass player etc., it needs to be as loud onstage as if you had a real one. Allow others to ride on top of the sound, rather than sit within it (as they would if you had real drums) will always change the dynamic, and the whole FEEL of playing music. Care needs to be taken here, or everything will sound 'flat' and uninspiring.

Best of luck with your search...

Thanks for the suggestions Diki (and everyone else)! I think I'll cart my DGX-300 over to the church and give your ideas a try. But I still want to upgrade to a higher-grade arranger in the relatively near future.

I called Guitar Center and asked if they were going to be getting in the new Roland GW-8. They told me this would be an "order only item," as they are not planning to stock it. (Maybe because their Yamaha PSR 550's and 700's won't stack up so well against it?)

I then called Sweetwater and asked if I could order a GW-8, and then return it if it wasn't what I wanted. They said that I would have 30 days to try it out and then still get my money back if I decided to return it--as long as I paid the shipping costs--theirs and mine ($19.99 each way). Not a bad deal for a 30 day "rental" if I decide I don't like keyboard and/or the styles.

But then I read on one of the GW-8 threads that this keyboard only has 130 basic styles (plus 100 “regional styles,” which I think may be referring to the Latin styles that this keyboard ships to North America with). This would be a problem for me, since I’m used to the larger selection of styles (especially ballads) that come with the Yamaha keyboards, plus I’m not a Latin music player.

So I'm thinking I might just wait for the new Yamaha PSR S950 to make its debut (supposedly they'll be shipping in Feb. 09') and then try one of them out at my local Guitar Center before I order anything on-line. But then again, I might get a serious case of “keyboard fever” and order up a GW-8 to preview right after the rest of the family gets their Christmas presents….




[This message has been edited by polarshift (edited 11-14-2008).]

polarshift,
I would not consider the GW8 TOTL arranger, even though it seems to be a very nice sounding board. Maybe in a few monthes you will have some new choices for TOTL arrangers. Roland is overdue due and Ketron Audya is comming?

Yamaha S950??? I have not seen the announcement on that yet??
Lee

The best styles are the ones YOU edit & PLAY

I'd see about getting an S900 again for a few days, and trying those edits out. From what I have heard, there's a larger selection of Praise and Worship styles for Yamaha (and possibly Korg) than any other (you won't easily find them for GW-8, that's for sure!).

The DGX is probably a lost cause, sadly. A very washed out sound, IMO...

If the church can afford it, a T3 might be an excellent choice, with some better drums than the S900, and the possibility of later adding more if Yamaha make an expansion pack for the sampler, or a PA800 might also be something to check out. Lively drums, for sure!

I chose Yamaha because it has the MOST available styles. If you cannot find a stylr you need in Yamaha's library you won;t find it. The Yamaha library is extensive and has a huge support base of websites and people that create styles. AS far as sounds go, Thats a subjective area. Either you like the "signiture sound" of a Manufacturer or you don;t/ They all have their own idea of what a flute sounds like, or drums, bases on and on.

Yamaha samples their own Pianos, horns as well as others. My wife preferred the Roland Digital Piano for years. Now shes torn between the CP300 and her RD700. I am not as astute aurally. I can make one sound like the other using post recording tools. She's a live player, IM a Studio Rat. After having a PA2x and now a Tyros 3. I prefer the sheen of the Yamaha sound over the "live" Korg sound. But I rarely just use the Yamaha voices in their own styles.

The Yamaha has far less "features" meaning its easier to get up and running. You really have to hear the M3 then the Motif and Fantom to get an idea. most MI stores wont carry TOTTL Arrangers.

Hi,
I converted a few of my yammie styles across to pa800 format, including a couple of worship styles.

Al has them for download at
http://www.arrangerworld.com/dl.asp?cmd=2&cid=17&sid=23

You have to join to be able to download stuff from the site. ( it's free)

Personally I don't think onversions are ever as good as originals, but they may be worth trying before you decide what keyboard to get.

best wishes
Rikki


[QUOTE]Originally posted by polarshift:
[B] So again, I find myself wondering if I could get any of the Yamaha praise and worship styles for the Korg PA800 or PA500. This for me, would be the best of both worlds--assuming the Yamahas styles sound "more live" on the Korg keyboard. (I kind of doubt that this would be the case, but then, even having those worship styles would make the Korg keyboards "a good thing" as far as I'm concerned.

Maybe you're right. I want a good sounding keyboard, but I also want a large style selection. I'd still like to play the GW-8, but then, I'd like to play a Ketron too; and a Tyros 3 and....

Here's the unsubstantiated rumor (originating from an unnamed source) regarding the new Yamaha PSR S950. But then, the S550 has already come out, so the S950 can't be too far behind.

http://www.psrtutorial.com/forum/index.php?topic=7910.0

[This message has been edited by polarshift (edited 11-14-2008).]

[This message has been edited by polarshift (edited 11-14-2008).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rikkisbears:
[B]Hi,
I converted a few of my yammie styles across to pa800 format, including a couple of worship styles.

Al has them for download at
http://www.arrangerworld.com/dl.asp?cmd=2&cid=17&sid=23

You have to join to be able to download stuff from the site. ( it's free)

Personally I don't think onversions are ever as good as originals, but they may be worth trying before you decide what keyboard to get.

best wishes
Rikki

Thanks Rikki. That's exactly what I've been looking for! I think I'll download those worship styles (and a few others) and try them out on the Korg PA800 at my local Guitar center....

Thanks Rikki. That's exactly what I've been looking for! I think I'll download those worship styles (and a few others) and try them out on the Korg PA800 at my local Guitar center. If they sound good, I may be buggin' you to put the other 15 or so Yamaha worship styles out there....

redundant