Cool, Tom! It's nice to see another "live" player on the forum.

Ian

Well said. Agree with all your points.

I don't get you Ian. Why do you defend Yamaha even when they screw up? I also have a T3 (do you btw?), but unlike others, I'm not blinded to its weak spots...

Have you ever used a Korg Pa2x? That's how sliders should work. All assignable (not just 1), FULLY assignable (not just to 10 useless features), and they all work even when you're not on the relevant page (you don't have to cycle through 4 mixer pages to finally use the sliders...)

JMO...

Yes Chony, I have had a T3 for some time now.

I am not defending the T3...I am just saying that I find the sliders very useful for MY needs...I like them better than the buttons.

They also work perfectly as drawbars, something the buttons were sadly poor at.

It's not a difficult process to get to them...not as accessible as the Korg's, perhaps, but easy enough, at least for me.

I have not played any Korg arrangers, so I can't compare...they don't sell them in my area.

If you are so unhappy with the Tyros3...

(a)Why did you buy it? If you didn't test it out in person and find out that the sliders weren't to your liking, then complaining after the fact seems a bit pointless....would you buy a car or other expensive investment without a test drive?

(b)Why do you still have it? If it is not doing what you want, sell it, cut your losses and move on to something that will...no need to be frustrated.


Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 11-16-2008).]

I've only had a Ty3 for 10 days now,so maybe it could change but the impression I get of the sliders is that they have primarily been added as an obvious way to differentiate Ty3 from previous versions and to create "excitement" in the Market Place.
To me it doesn't appear that much thought has been given in the detailed design to what would make them really useful in the sense of a must-use during live performance (or even when editing off line come to that).

In the style part page a movement of only 1mm. produces a 10% level change.
Additionally if a slider hasn't already been initialised (eg. after a style has been selected) and you go to use it you get an unpredictable jump in setting which you have to fight with before you set the adjustment to what you really want.
So basically it seems to me they are too imprecise/risky/distracting to want to use under pressure in live performance unless you're only interested in quickly going to from one extreme setting to another - like 0 to 127 approx. or vice versa.

Sure buttons can be slower, but you're less likely to overshoot, and you can always immediately find the 100 level by pressing the up & down buttons simultaneously.
And if it really is so difficult why not save the alternative settings to a registration for that song for next time where they are instantly selectable at the press of 1 button?

So in concept sliders/drawbars might be a nice idea but this particular implementation IMO doesn't compensate for the downside of having the registration buttons off centre and the Effect buttons off to the extreme right.
..........................................

Hi Tom, you don't have to use multi key presses to get the screen you want. Most can be got by pressing Direct Access followed by another button- admittedly 2 presses

eg.for starters:
DA followed by Style Intro = Style Voice screen
DA + Song Selection I(one) button = Song Channels 1-8

Try a few more for size

John, home user playing mainly live.

How right you are John...I usually use the buttons, and use the sliders primarily for the organ drawbars....I also preferred the registration buttons in the center, under the screen , where they are accessible to either hand.

One of the reasons I like my S900 so much is the layout.

I don't find the extra button press an issue.

Ian

There is no right or wrong but there is a Comfort playing zone that has to be determined by the player only. Suggestions are appreciated but there is nothing better then Real Time experiences by the player to truly see if certain features are correct for a players personal type of playing no matter what unit is being operated. Your love is the next guy's Hate.

Choose smart and good luck.

Hmmmmmmmmmm..., I assumed Yamaha would use the same concept with the T3's sliders as they do on the Motif XS. Are the T3's really that generic and basic? The Motif's don't have a sudden jump. You can grab a slider, make an adjustment and the change will be gradual and not a sudden jump from one setting to the next. Does the T3 not operate this way? Perhaps it's the issue that several of us have already brought up with the sliders having such a short throw to them.


[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-16-2008).]

Squeak,
On Ty3 when you first go to a screen (say Style voices) if the slider position does not correspond to say the actual volume that is shown on the screen graphic, the first time you move the slider there will be a jump.
In the extreme case if actual vol=127 and slider position = zero the first time you touch the slider the vol.jumps down to close to zero. So if you want 100 you can't go from 127 to 100. The route becomes 127 to about zero to 100.
Once all sliders are synchronised they will stay so - as long as you stay in that screen and don't get them out of synch again eg. by by altering buttons. Change to a different screen, alter sliders and come back, or change to a different style and they will be out of synch again to a varying extent.
This comes about because the only way the sliders move is by hand - no servo to keep them mechanically in synch
Thinking about it, it might have been better if the software only started actioning level changes once the slider position is moved to the current level - that way involuntary jumps wouldn't happen at least.

John

[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 11-16-2008).]

It's not what I am saying. Its YAMAHA! We have asked them about this and they claim have done extensive research on this and have come to the conclusion the OMB market is not big enough to change anything major and as the other builders already cater to that market they are content with their design and market...What's so hard to understand about that? These are not considered PRO Keyboards. They don't build them like the Motifs which are in a different division. If the bulk of their base does not like the slider location they will change them. If the bulk of their base wanted 76 keys, they would make them. Its not that hard. Yamaha does not operate in a vacuum. They know their market. As does Korg and Roland. They like all technologies dribble out new features to keep people like even Chony buying them even though he hates more then he likes about it. There is a good example. He bought even though he complains about it and did not like a lot of what it has become this time around!!!! That speaks volumes.

We live in a destination resort OMB market and no we one uses an Arranger for a living. Working in a music store and having a wife who has been in the music scene and earning her living for 30 years here does not know of anyone using them either, Although she says the bars,restaurants and casino boats would not notice or care if someone brought in a 61 key board Arranger, as long as their customers were buying drinks and enjoying the music. Even with that said I have not sold an Arranger to a professional live player who earns their living solely from playing bars ,clubs,restaurants etc. Its not like we don't have them to sell and don't sell them. Its that we sell them to HOME users and Hispanics who may or may not use them for a living.

If its not happening here in a rich OMB resort area I can accept Yamaha's research as being sound.

Yamaha sells more Arrangers then the others combined in all formats. I think they know what they are doing. You have a choice. You can buy a Yamaha......or not. Apparently they do not have a backlog of old Tyros' on the shelf so their marketing is working as planned. It doesn't matter what dealers are selling them for. They are making a pretty good profit on them even at well under $3899.
Those who sell for far less in quantity are enjoying a handsome profit.

Look at the entire Internet. Research the forums where live players hang out. Nary a word about Arrangers. This is the largest forum of Arranger players I have found and only a handful here claim to make a living using Arrangers live (meaning in public for pay). I spent 15 years in the entertainment industry in Las Vegas and never even heard of a keyboard arranger...as of three years ago. They were "toys" in my ignorant mind. I did not realize myself the power of these things until I began selling them.

The market for live (meaning in public for pay)Arranger players is minuscule in the big scheme of things. I think some of you guys really live in a vacuum.

Now this may be a US thing. I think the US is a major market for Yamaha Arrangers. Korg probably sells more in the rest of the world where OMBs frequently use them.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 11-16-2008).]