http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxSumij_XuU&feature=related

What a great feature for a live player.

On most keyboards they call that the Volume pedal.

I dont think the VOL pedal can regulate the players feeling as accurate as this.

Yamaha has had dynamic accompaniment starting with the PSR-2000...it's on the Tyros1/2/3 and the later mid line PSR as well.

It is called "Style Touch"

The PSR-6700 also had it in a slightly different form, although it did basically the same thing...that was around 1990...it was called "Interactive Accompaniment".

I also encountered this type of feature on the Roland E-70,back when I did demos for them (around 1990 or earlier)...they called it "Arranger Velocity Level".

So it's been around for some time, although I don't tend to use it a great deal.

It must be on the E-60?

Ian

Mac Neill Correctamundo buddy


and a great players tool.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 11-16-2008).]

Dynamic Accomp as Technics did it, is quite different from what
we see/hear here.
How I miss that feature, when give a little extra punch to the
left hand (if thats' your choice), "the band" responded very nice.
Quite different and sure more real/live from the ordinary fills
we're used to.

The first brand who steal and add that function as well as the
Composer and Panememory functions from Technics, could easily be
my next Arranger Keyboard brand.

Cheers
GJ

Yes.., that's a great feature to have on any arranger. Even Casio did it years back.

Yep, Casio had it back in 1984 on the CT-6000...it was called "Super Accompaniment.

A buddy of mine used to sell them from his home...I eventually bought my CZ synths from him.

The CT-6000 also had velocity AND aftertouch.

No PCM drums unfortunately, but the style patterns were very useful and pretty good for the time, and it was a well made instrument.

I remember my favorite sound was one called "Chorus"...ethereal, eerie and pure.

Ian

Without the ability to edit it as to 'window' and hold parameters, it isn't quite as useful as it might be...

I'd also like to see something more in the way of being able to turn parts on or off completely, depending on velocity, as long as you have that 'hold' parameter adjustable, because playing hard constantly, just to maintain the backing level is quite tricky. That way, one part might be a gentle strum pattern, and another a hard strum pattern, and have the arranger choose between them based on velocity

It's a great idea, and particularly in conjunction with the velocity switched V-Drums, can be very effective, allowing you the ability to get your drummer to rimshot the snare only when YOU get loud, makes an already pretty live drum sound sound even better... but just a FEW user adjustable parameters could make it better, IMO.

Most organ players will regulate dynamics as good as this. It has become a lost art.

We have something similar on the Pa2xpro, hitting the keys harder will trigger the Leslie effect on Organ Patches. You can setup patches to trigger volume just as well.

Casio also did it with the MZ-2000.

kbrkr..,

Does the Korg actually trigger the les. effect or does it use (patch velocity switching).., and when you hit the curve it triggers another patch that has a pre-programed les effect?

Older Roland models will do this..., can't recall the name of the patch but even my well dated RS-70 has a velocity switched organ patch that when triggered switches over to a sample with a faster les effect.

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-16-2008).]

kbrkr, on the Roland's, you can get to choose WHICH parts get affected by velocity, and by how much, either positively or negatively (have a part get QUIETER as you play louder, for instance).

You can't do that with a pedal... or actually, you can on a Roland, but you have to program it in fairly carefully in advance. Come to think of it, perhaps THAT'S the way to get parts in and out depending on volume..? Up for one set of Parts, down for another (in the middle for both!).

But it still isn't velocity controlled without the Dynamic arranger. A combination of BOTH approaches could offer some SEROUS variation on a basic style, having velocity switch some parts, and the expression pedal work others.... Hmmmm...

I also have a fair bit of trouble using the volume pedal if I play standing up... too busy working sustain and the arranger controls with the FC-7. At least this offers some of that control if you CAN'T use a pedal. And so many of us have this habit of riding up on the style parts by banging away on the RH. At least this gives the arranger the opportunity to level the playing field, even if WE don't realize it at the time

Yes they have it, but why in the world would you want to use it? It sounds so unnatural. It doesn't sound like the band is playing softer, it sounds like somebody is suddenly turning up and down the fader on the mixer...

Quoting Diki,
" Come to think of it, perhaps THAT'S the way to get parts in and out depending on volume..? Up for one set of Parts, down for another (in the middle for both!)."

You can do that on Tyros, have 1 or 2 parts set to come down in volume as another one(s) come up - all with just 1 pedal.
It's quite useful for changing say a BigBand full ensemble eg. based on Brass/Trumpet/Sax to a solo instrument by simultaneously fading out the first two while bringing the Sax up a bit. Just switching off the other 2 alone often doesn't do a good job, since it leaves the solo instrument at the ensemble level which may be lacking for a good solo. Creates quite a smooth effect transitioning back and forth at appropriate points in the song.

John

Ah yes but on the Roland (and others I suspect) it is actually note velocity we are talking about.

And this can be as subtle as you like, even to the degree of just reducing velocity by 2 or 3, which with the velocity switched layering of modern sounds you can also vary the actual timbre too.

So it's not simply a case of a volume pedal at all.

Dennis

Exactly Dennis wel explained....its all in the fingers

Yes, the foot pedal and Dynamic Arranger do a similar job, but in different ways... The footpedal strictly regulates volume alone, whereas the DA works with strictly velocities. There are subtle (or not so subtle) differences between the two, especially with those mentioned vel-switched sounds.

Drums particularly benefit from small amounts of it, as often it's not enough to make a gross change in the volume, but usually just a few ticks is enough to push kick and snare into harder hit velocities. More of a timbral change than a volume one. VERY drummer like (who can rimshot quite quietly, when they WANT to! )...

Yeah. Yamaha has it.All arrangers should have it by now

And the most important part of the Dynamic arranger feature playing is you have to KNOW HOW TO PLAY with that degree of feeling...its a style of playing all in itself let's not forget that shall we?

My problem with the system is there is no 'hold' parameter. So you have to bang away constantly for the volume to not drop down again. And as it's velocity, rather than volume, you can't hold it with a pedal. Having to constantly play hard (despite what the sound or the phrase might need) to keep it there can be fatiguing, or interfere with rapid passages.

If there was something you could program to say 'hold' the velocity jump for four bars, or eight etc., it might be a bit more globally useful. As it is, on the whole I only use it for VERY subtle things on the drum track alone. There is only an ON/OFF for the feature, and the amount per style track, but no other parameters. It might also be better if the velocity to trigger it could come from ONLY the NTA area, whereas, at the moment, even a loud lead line note can cause it to work, possibly not what you need. I'd rather trigger it with LH only...

Does Yamaha's or Korg's implementation offer more in the way of control? (Trigger points, hold window, trigger point for a return to normal, etc.?).

On the whole, I just think it is like the Guitar Mode on Roland's... very NEARLY a great feature, but hampered by a few basic needs. Hopefully, someone is listening...

Interesting to wonder why only now Donny's getting worked up about the feature, if all his prior Yamaha's (3k, S900 and T1) and the PA800 had it too...

Is it that easier to operate on the Roland?

Absolutely Donny... It's one thing being able to set the dynamic arranger up, it's another to be able to play it.

A technique that, imo, is more about "finesseing" (if I might be permitted my own word there )the keys rather than just simply hitting harder or softer.

Dennis

HI the korg pa 800 will trigger a fill in just as the technics 3000 did when using the left hand....Paula

Diki. When I had the Korg i3 & i30 you could set them to switch on & off style parts relating to key pressure. It worked very well. Not sure if the later model contain this.
More advanced than the Yamaha option where the complete style go up & down.

Ketrons do all of the above as well. I haven't used it except to experiment a little, but I'm probably missing out.
DonM

Right, Gunnar, the 'Dynamic Accompaniment' gave a different feel to the style - more animated, I would say ... but you turned the feature on with the "Dynamic Accomp' button ... I have it on my kn1000, which I still own ... gonna have to get it out and play it again ...

You are also right about the other technics features which are part of the reason I still use my kn6000 ...



Princess - I never played a kn3000, but the 'Dynamic Accomp' feature on the kn1000 did more than trigger a fill - in ...
But how did the kn3000 do that?

t.

Yeah, KN3000 does also have that nice feature. As you say, not only create a fill
that is very different from ordinary fill, but also very smooth variation and a
movement in the ordinary pattern. Different for each accompvariation too.
This changes for each time you do the extra pressure, and you can adjust how hard
you have to do that extra press on keys before anything happens.
Don't remember how many different variations there is, but it sure make the little
extra to make it more live when play.

If Korg PA800 have this, maybe PA2X as well? What do Korg kall it?

GJ

HI...the pa800 will trigger just the normal fill 1 or 2 or break if set up that way,I don't use it I use the pedel,I had a kn3000 and that was so long ago, and I don't recall the technics 6500 having that feature.I am far from being an expert with these key boards learning every day,and having lots of fun,I really did enjoy the technics, I did not wan't to put any more time into this keyboard to have it break down and have to start all over again and it was quite some time before I began liking the Korg,now that I understand the Korg more I find it to be just great,I still think the sounds on the technics were the best////Paula

Pressure, or aftertouch triggered actions are a bit of a problem for me. Because I also play piano, my touch is a little on the heavier side than many arranger only players, and having things like fills or part switching happen in response to aftertouch leaves me at the mercy of accidental occurrence, when I play loud...

It might be better if there was a control that allowed you to set up the aftertouch trigger VALUE, so that only the heaviest of pressure would trigger it, but so far, most of these things will trigger even at low to moderate pressure. Play a big horn stab, or a fortissimo on the piano, and next thing you know, the damn arranger's taking a fill!

Technics allow you to set how hard you have to play/press the keys
before something happens.
But only 3 levels, if I rememvber it right, soft, medium and hard.
And of course on or off. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
But it's a huge difference between how Technics play this feature
and the fills. Much much smoother.
Come'on Yamaha, Ketron, Korg or whoever, add it!!

Happy Playing
GJ


Correction:
There are 4 levels to chose for Dynamic Accomp:
Heavy, Normal, Light and Extra Light.

Quoted from the KN3000 manual:
DYNAMIC ACCOMP is a function which
changes each accompaniment pattern
of the AUTO PLAY CHORD.


[This message has been edited by Gunnar Jonny (edited 11-17-2008).]

I'm getting confused here... Is the Technics Dynamic Accomp a function of velocity, or pressure?

Fills, I know can be triggered with pressure, but the Dyn/Accomp?

Diki ... If I remember correctly, the DA on the kn1000 function was activated by a dedicated button on the kb ... when the DA function was 'on', the kb would sense when the player started playing 'more notes', such as when taking an ad lib solo, and would vary the style accordingly ...
t.

Neat...

I guess the main problem with all these kind of features is that it seriously complicates making styles for them... Korg's multiple chord choices, etc..

It's hard enough to even get decent third party styles nowadays when they DON'T have to make multiple Parts per division

Don't know if this helps any of you guys or not:

The Korg PA800/Pa2 allows you to set a velocity level 1-127, then use LH keyboard area to trigger one of these things if you reach that velocity:
(note: anything over about 115 takes a pretty hard hit to trigger)

1) Fill 1 or 2, or break
2) Start/Stop
3) Bass Inversion
4) Memory ( I use this a lot)

Also, something I use is that you can easily set up a sound ( multisample assigned to samples/ 4 osc per voice) (LH or RH or 1 or,2 or,3) to trigger at a certail velocity or higher. Works nice to bring in a sound on hard playing that adds a lot to the performance dynamics. I use it a lot for orchectial playing and bring in Bress or strings ensemble.

Other boards may have the same functions?

Lee

That's a pretty scary bunch of functions that an overzealous chord in the LH could accidently make happen... A STOP, for Pete's sake?

You could survive an accidental fill, but that?

Same problem as pressure, for those with strong playing techniques, IMO. Plus, of course, what happens if this is set up and then you WANT to play a strong note in the LH sound?!

You can't adjust the samples in a Roland arranger (their cross points are fixed) but yes, you can set up multiple vel-splits between the three UPR sounds and two lower... Or all five whole kbd sounds if they are layered as one...

Most of us cannot play velocity accurately, so whether you like it or not, every chord will be +/- 15-25 velocity notes off. And that's if you're good. (If you don't agree with me, try playing a MEGA voice accurately.

And the music would sound really unprofessional - like a guy jerking the volume switch up and down.

I can't figure out why I would ever use this feature...

[This message has been edited by chony (edited 11-18-2008).]

Beleive me it's fine...if you set the velocity up high...it takes an INTENTIONAL heavy hit to trigger one of the selected functions (only one can be used at any time)

I use the one for fill 2 all the time...no issues.

Lee

Yes, the harder attack to the keys when play, the more complex variation
during the measure. It's not really a fill, but bass and drums as well as
the rest does a smooth variation loop each time you trigger this.
Don't remember the number of variations that alternate before the same
pattern repeats. And yes, you have to activate it if you want to use it.

It's almost impossible to describe it, play, try and listen are the best
way to find out, as always.
Anyway, for some reason or another, when KN5000 came, that option was not
to find anymore. Probably removed to make room for all other great stuff
added.......

Btw.
Diki, ever tried out a Technics KN? Not only for the DA, but also how the
Composer, Banks and Panel Memory works. Just brilliant and very easy to use.
Yeah I know, "only" 61 keys.

But not all is just great, Technics never added the "save as GM midi"....


Cheers
GJ

GJ
I had the KN5000 and have the KN7000, as well as the Roland G70. Whereas I like the up front sound and features of the G70, whenever I have to whip up a song with multiple changes, there is nothing like the ease of the KN. I have been following your advice from the kN5000 days.
Cheers
Bernie

Shame they are no longer with us...

As you know, I do play piano quite a bit on my arranger (two handed, that is!), so sadly, anything with a 61 pretty much has to go to the bottom of the pile.

BTW about the velocity thing... personally, I have a problem with playing really hard in one hand, and softly in the other... Both tend to track around roughly the same, especially if you don't concentrate really hard!

Oh, and chony, the changes to velocity are not immediate. There IS a 'hold' in the function (just not user adjustable) that stops it jumping up and down too rapidly. If you haven't tried it, don't knock it quite yet... Used subtly, as we have been trying to say, it is pretty good. Use it to make dramatic differences, and yes, it is more difficult.

In combination with snare sounds that have four levels, even small playing differences can make subtle changes to the 'tone' of the drum part. It's hard to explain, but on the right material, it's pretty good at giving you the impression that the drummer is actually listening to you!

Now if only all REAL drummers did that!

Diki ... My wife and I spent this past weekend in Newport RI, celebrating our 45th wedding ann'y (which is actually next Sunday) ...Fri nite we went to listen to a jazz group - piano, bass, drums, male vocalist (Mel Torme style) - a really GREAT group ... I commented to my wife that she should listen to how the drummer was playing in accordance with what the soloist - bass or piano - was playing ... sometimes during 'fours' they would do a 'call and answer' ... it was amazing how you could almost hear the drummer play the same 'notes' as the piano or bass ...
OMB players will often express thanks for the 'hassle free' life (and I wonder how much of the hassle THEY might have created ), but there is NOTHING like live musicians playing off each other!!!

t.

Amen to that conclusion!

GJ

The Kurtzweil did something I have never seen on an arranger. It changed the arrangement styler on the fly depending on the chord played, IF you moved to a minor the style would not only adjust to the minor key but would change as if you selected a different variations,

When I played my G1000..I designed some styles to switch from a swing to a latin beat via after touch...Used these styles for tunes like Green Dolphin Street..

Most modern TOTL and MOTL arrangers (and even some lower ones) can change patterns depending on what chord you play, maj/min/7th/dim, etc., but how much that affects the accompaniment is primarily in the hands of the style composer. It is seldom you will see a style change radically depending on chord, but that doesn't mean you can't do it!

You can assemble styles quite easily out of other styles on Roland's (and probably others too), so if you WANT something this radical, it's fairly easy to say grab the min patterns from one bossa, and add them to the major patterns from another, etc., etc..

So, in fairness, it isn't really the machine, it's the guy making the style...