Hi everyone,
This is my first post; I've gleaned much useful information from this site over the last couple of years and found it a really great resource. Thanks to the many folks who have made so many useful contributions.

I would like to comment on my recent acquisition of a Tyros 3.
My previous instruments = Lowrey TLOKS, Lowrey MX1, Ensoniq 16+, CVP-109, Tyros, Tyros 2 and now Tyros 3.

I've had the Tyros 3 for only a few days now and I know it takes time to get to know a new machine and become accustomed to the different sound and feel of it but here goes.

The Tyros' sounds have been generally good but in my opinion have been lacking in 3 main areas - Piano, vocals and organ sounds.
They have, in my opinion also excelled in some other areas i.e. mega voices, some wind instruments and I’ve also liked the Yamaha’s Styles generally.


Now with the Tyros 3 I have to say that I really like the effort Yamaha has made to the organ sounds and effects – a good and useful improvement over previous tyros models.
The SA2 instruments are also a nice improvement, some really good sounds there - love the breathy sax.

The vocals haven’t effectively changed for 3 models – a bit of a poor effort there.

The Piano – Oh dear…. A VERY POOR EFFORT in my opinion.
I don’t need Irish pipes etc. I want a half decent piano sound.
I’ve heard a better piano on a 35-year-old Optigan (anyone remember those?).

The sample Yamaha used (supposedly taken from the latest CVP series) sounds nothing like any current CVP I’ve heard.
Try listening to the Concert Grand (the name sounds good at least) with the “Initial Touch” off and play E3 and compare it to F3.
A half decent piano should be sampled note for note and not filled between the sampled notes. This technique was used years ago when memory was extremely expensive and sample space was critical.
This is a very, very poor effort and makes it sound cheap (because it is cheap) at least for the mid range of this sample where your right hand tends to hang around quite a bit (the low end and top end are actually quite nice). Add a few effects and you can pretend you have a bunch of other pianos as well i.e. Pop, Rock and Ambient Pianos.
I have to admit I am very disappointed with the piano sound on the Tyros 3 and prefer the Live Grand on the previous tyros keyboards and that’s not saying very much as I still think the Live Grand is thin and lacks substance. Yamaha can do it easily, they just choose not to.

So, overall I’m a little disappointed with a new keyboard for the first time ever.
I would’ve been happier if they’d at least installed a half decent piano for their third model flagship arranger keyboard, but alas not – do Yamaha not want to infringe on their CVP line?
I don’t know, but Yamaha will really have to lift their game for the next model T4 or what ever they’ll call it.
Anybody considering upgrading from a T 2 to a T3 really needs to do his or her homework on this one.
It’s not a sure thing and that is for sure…

The Tyros 3 also feels like it’s been rushed with regards to the balance and selection of a lot of the voices used with the one-touch settings. It’s taking me a lot longer to “get right” than the T2 ever did.

Anyhow thanks for letting me get that off my chest and thanks again to all the posters that make this forum such a great resource.
Chris.

Good honest opinions! Welcome to the forum too

Good post Chris. Very clear and concise, and I especially find the information useful in that I hope to test drive a T3 in the next few weeks. I'll be paying particular attention to the piano as well as I consider it one of the benchmarks of a quality, arranger keyboard.

Thanks again,

Gary

Welcome Chris.......

Thank you for your very HONEST review.....you just broke many Yamaha Tyros HYPED UP Hearts here but at least you said it like it is for YOUR Needs. Don't be a lurker we appreciate your involvement. BTW did you actually test drive the tyros 3 before purchase?

Happy Thanks Giving!

Thanks for your kind words and friendly welcome I really appreciate that.

squeak_D,
Thankyou.

Gary,
I'd be very interested to hear what you have to say after your Tyros 3 encounter.

Dnj,
I'm embarrassed to admit it, but I only gave it a very quick test drive at the shop through the supplied speakers (I may as well have heard it through a clock radio).

I was very impressed with the new Sax, Clarinet and the improved rotary effects and Organ sounds but alas I didn't give the piano a proper evaluation - to me it sounded like a toy piano but I put it down to the speakers - I wanted to believe it would sound so much better through a decent sound system, after all it sounded great on the DVD didn't it?
After I connected it up through my system though, I checked out the Concert Grand Piano and (to my ears) it just sounded like a toy piano through better speakers…
Luckily the T3 still has the Tyros 2 “Live Grand” with a better (but still thin) mid range sound.

I’m sure I’ll learn to love the Tyros 3 in time as it has many enhancements, it’s just that I expected a really good piano sound and for me that just wasn’t delivered by Yamaha.

My advice to any prospective Tyros 3 customers;
Don’t make my mistake, thoroughly test the Tyros 3 before purchase, at least all the sounds and attributes that are important to you.

Chris

It would be interesting if Steve Demming could find out what settings were used to make the DVD recording of the new grand so good, and some live impressions of it not so good...

Perhaps there's an EQ trick or something?

Because I can hardly imagine that Yamaha didn't actually USE the T3 for the recording, so SOMETHING has got to be able to make it sound that good...

Chris....thanx for the very honest review on the T3..Ive heard the same thing from a few players myself that they had rather kept their T2...but we live & learn eh?...
Its like anything in advertising a product its all looks oh Sooooo Gooood until YOU try it or YOU Taste it or YOU Drive it....its always a buyer beware scenario out there.

Good Luck to you and have a Happy Holiday!!

Hi Chris,
I can identify with some of your comments about the Concert Piano as it sounds "out of the box".
Some have tried all sorts of designer Master EQ and Compressor settings in an attempt to get the quality to what they think it should be. I've been round the houses myself to a certain extent both with that and speaker setup, and it is possible to get a fuller sounding CGrand.
Having gone far out to start with I find I can get an overall better sound using much simpler settings so for now have settled for Flat Master EQ plus the essential compressor (IMO for piano) set to MS02 with gain upped to +4 (and turned On!).
Having said that if I wanted to "show off" a piano on the Ty3 I think I prefer the Live Grand which is greatly improved on the Ty3 and no longer needs the constant tweaking I was in the habit of doing to it on the Ty2.
It seems more sonorous/resonant and more in line with the upright acoustic grand I grew up with (using above master settings).
Maybe I'm just a heathen and do not know how to appreciate the more subtle tones of a Concert Grand-lol!

John

I agree entirely, John...the Live Grand is substantially improved, and is my "go to" piano on the T3.

I'm getting extremely positive feedback on the Tyros3 during my Atlantic tour which winds up tomorrow...the SA2 voices are impressing everyone who hears them, and the the new organ sounds are causing quite a stir as well.

The PSR-S900 is also a hit...can't keep up with the orders for either it or the Tyros3.

A very successful tour indeed.

Ian

Chris, I respect and honor all opinions, I do feel that given some time and effort the Tyros 3 will prove to be a good size step well worth the dollars.

I read the same posts for the Psr2100 and the Psr3000, not worth stepping up. For me, not true. Side by side the Psr3000 was better – worth the dollar difference.

I stepped through Technics kn1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 6500, 7000 and Psr 2100, Psr 3000, Tyros 1, Tyros2 and now the S900. After spending some time with each keyboard I was not disappointed. Out of the box is another story. I have returned keyboards after a single day, that had to be one of my not-so-good days.

Only my opinions, John C.

Well, interesting on the T3 piano question...was it a T3 recording or a Clavinova?

It better had been a T3...ot that's false advertising for sure.

No one can get the piano great sound on the DVD????
Even those with high end powered monitors?

Hmmmmmm...

Steve should be able to clear this up..AND be able to show how the T3 piano can be as good as the DVD.

In my recent audition of T3, I used headphones because the place was lousy with guitar banging going on! So, I didn't expect a great sound.
Lee

Diki,
It would be great if there was some EQ trick, or something – I’m remaining hopeful but I have a niggling feeling that the problem may be with the "Concert Grand" sample itself.
The lower register sounds really great and the top also sounds sweet. It's the bit in the middle - the important bit - where it comes undone (in my opinion).

Dnj,
You are so right with the "try before you buy".
I so wanted to believe that the piano was (to quote the DVD) “so much better than the original Live Grand that was featured on Tyros 2” that I just put it down to the poor environment and speaker system used at the shop.

John,
me too, I've EQed this thing to Christmas and back but I still can't get it right, perhaps I'm too fussy.
I'm starting to think it's the sample Yamaha's used.
The "Live Grand" is very even across the notes but the Concert Grand has some variation in the mid range which would indicate to me that the sample has been averaged across notes and not sampled note by note, that’s my suspicion anyway.

Ian’
You may be right, to my ears however, the “Live Grand” seems to be the same sample as in the Tyros 2, but I think it’s the sound environment of the Tyros 3 that brings it forward more and thus the improvement in sound that is detected.
As far as the “go to “ piano, I agree with you, particularly when playing a quiet ballad using the “Concert Grand” as the solo piano voice, that situation really shows up the poor mid range of this sample, therefore the “Live Grand” looks like the I one to use there too.

bruno123,
“I do feel that given some time and effort the Tyros 3 will prove to be a good size step well worth the dollars”
John, I’m sure you’re correct, in fact the organ sounds alone tipped me over to the buy side as (in my opinion) the Tyros 3 has the most “Hammond-like” sounds I’ve yet heard on anything produced by Yamaha (how about Hammaha organ sounds hehehe), the vastly improved clarinet and “Breathy Sax” just helped clinch it.
I have to admit though, the thought of returning it did cross my mind after I heard the Concert not so Grand piano…


Lee,
The words used in the DVD stated;
“The Concert Grand is the “equivalent” of the piano “sound” used in the 400 series clavinova”.
It doesn’t say the “same sample” used in the 400 series Clavinova…
It doesn’t specify which 400 series 401, 409 etc. also which piano voice in the Clavinova it is the equivalent of.
So I guess there’s some wiggle room there, or I’m just being too pedantic.


As I said before, this forum is a great resource, thanks for your input everyone,

Chris.

This is what I'm talking about... If it sounded great on the DVD, you CAN make it sound as good yourself.

For a start off, I'd make sure that the velocity sensitivity is quite high. Dynamic range is everything on these things, and using a medium or low setting is just going to force you into those brighter ranges too soon. Perhaps you should make an SMF of your own piano playing, and look at where the velocities tend to lie. If you are banging into 127 country a lot (or close), you are not getting the best out of the sound.

Those lightweight keybeds don't help, they take those with real piano technique and touch quite a bit to adjust to... Plus, to be honest, I wouldn't put it past Yamaha to use a wooden 88 to CONTROL the T3 to make that demo. Naturally, the best action to get a good piano sound on is a piano action!

But this is just conjecture... Steve D. can probably set us straight quite quickly.

But were I you, I would take off ALL compression and EQ, and make sure the piano sound is set to the highest dynamic range you can get, and THEN be careful about playing too hard. That, at least, ought to give you your best shot at making it sound warmer... and warmer by playing the lower velocity samples more, rather than warmer by EQ-ing the higher velocity samples duller, if you get my drift.

Diki,
"If it sounded great on the DVD, you CAN make it sound as good yourself"

Yes you're right, you should be able to do that.

I've listened to the part in question on that DVD and I think some of the answer is in the technique used i.e. lots of notes played, use of the great sounding lower register, basically lots of stuff going on.
The problem really shows up when a single note melody is played between F3 to E5, it's then that the true quality or lack there of becomes apparent in the mid range of this sample.
I’ve heard a CVP309 piano; I think the sample size was around 110mb needless to say it was a heck of a lot better than the T3 “Concert Grand”.

Thanks for your ideas; I’ll play around with your suggestions re. velocities etc. and I’ll remove any EQ and compression and try it all again to see what comes of it.
Thanks again,

Chris.

Wasn't it already mentioned at one point that the reason the Tyros 3 sounded so good in the demo vids was because that particular Tyros 3 was tweeked by the person doing the demo to their own preferences? Is it possible the person in the DVD has done the same...??

This can really be misleading to some people.. In my opinion I think any company made video/audio demos should be done(stock).., with the sounds as they are out of the box. Let the people hear what it really sounds like and not how the demoer likes it to sound. Unless the person doing the demo or DVD wants to scroll their edits across the screen they should use the factory sounds as they are.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 11-28-2008).]

Hi Chris/newman
You may be right about the samples of Live Grand being the same. At any rate it looks the same as before - a 2 element voice, 1 panned hard left, the other hard right. But it certainly sounds significantly better on Ty3.

The Concert Grand shows 3 elements centred and each assigned its own velocity range.
Having gone around the houses with Master settings, I tried some edits on the voice itself using the PC editor to give a wider fuller sound, best heard when playing full KB 2-handed piano.

To try it you can download from here then do an Individual Load into the Custom Voice bank:
http://www.box.net/shared/eza66nsxya

I normally use Flat MasterEQ with Compressor set to MS02 and +4 gain but it is a good idea to try it as suggested with the Compressor off. Just turn master volume up about a quarter turn to compensate for loss of level.

John

Well I thougt it was about time for me to make my first post too ! I'll really try to discribe everything within it's context, as I find that some of you are shouting out your opinions on the T3 and it's everyones guess how your opinion was formed.

I've done some extensive research on the tyros 3 and have compared the "out-of-the-box" performances in a physical line up of the PA2X, Tyros2 and Tyros3 simultaneously over the same high-end monitoring system.
I think in comparing sounds it is import that you can compare them realtime instead at an interval of some days and over different speakersystems/eq settings.

I was looking for a new arranger keyboard to add to my studio setup. I was still using the PSR8000. The rest of my setup :
-Roland RD-100 EP
-KORG Triton
-Hammond XK-1
-Yamaha AW1600 HDD-recorder

In comparing these instruments I focussed mainly on the realism and freedom of expression of the acoustic sounds : drums, bass, guitar, wind.

First I focussed on the KORG.
The PA2X is a great instrument and has the most professional casing, but it just couldn't in any way compare in realism of the acoustic sounds. Synths and nifty functionality is another story, but I'll never part with my Triton, so that's why the PA2X didn't do it for ME.

Next I compared the T2 to the T3. Why pay double the money for a little upgrade, I stated.

I started with comparing the styles of the T2 and T3, as this was a nice way to get to now my way around the boards.
The T3 styles have been remastered and sound more natural, also when DSP's are turned off. I myself don't use standard styles other than for quickly experimenting with ideas, so i.m.o. the progress in the style department wouldn't be worth spending the extra money. The newly added styles on the T3 vs the T2 consist for the biggest part of "song-specific-styles" : styles which remind the broad public of a popular song. This makes them highly unusable for performances with any other song. I create my own styles. If not, I'd probably took another look at the PA2X at that moment or would stick with the better appliable, broader styles of my PSR8000.

Next....drumroll...the SOUND !
I really don't know how ANYONE can state that there's no noticeable difference in the sounds. Those people have to go and buy a hearing device instead of an arranger !
Again, I had the T2 and T3 back-to-back over the same soundsystem with the EQ's on the mixer all in neutral and compared lots of sounds. T3 sounds far,far better than T2, mainly due to the new super-high quality DSP's. Turn the DSP's off and it's a different story. If you are using external effectprocessors of superior quality, I can imagine the T2 sounding very close on the majority of the sounds.

Brings me to the SA2 sounds. It's just a handfull of sounds, of which the clarinet, trumpet and sax are the only ones worth noticing. I was very impressed by the natural and 'organic' feel of these sounds. This is almost an analog experience ! If you play the instruments within the range and in the way the real thing is played, it's very,very good. Even better than the demo's where the guys are playing too many notes too fast and far too continuously to make it convincing that you're hearing the real deal.
The both SA2 buttons were kind of a dissapointment ; they mostly perform perfectly the same glissando time and time again,using the PB wheel would sound more convincing in some occasions. The SA2 effects are not so new : they are just plain multi-layered (up to 40) samples. It's just that Yamaha have really thought about when to activate which layer, and I must say that they've done a great job in that. The few SA2 sounds will soon become the favorite turn-to leadsounds whenever you need a wind instrument.

Piano-sounds
If you like Bach and Brahms and aren't too much of a real pianist, they will do. As accompaniment or part of a style, they're fine.
But to my tast the piano's sound too much like a music-box. With the ModWheel you can "close the lid" and make the sound warmer and less bright, that already makes a huge difference. I personally don't like bright ear-piercing piano sounds, and I prefer the warm, damped and raw blues-piano sound of my RD-100 (which, besides the EP1 sound) is the only reason I hang on to it. The pianosounds of the T3 are no match for this old entry-level stagepiano. But I have to say : the competitors of the T3 also sound like toy-piano's. That might be to Japanese taste the way a piano should sound, but I think it lacks "rawness". My guess would be that they had to improve the piano sound and focussed on the classical concert piano, where the samples had to be a few steps below the Yammie EP-range, and next they overengineered the sound in the effectsdepartment.

Organ/flutes
Best sounding organsounds in a Yamaha to date, but boy am I glad I still have my Hammond XK1. The B3-ish organ sounds are truly overengineered and to me rather sound like a parody of a Hammond than a wannabe-Hammond. The thin, englisch and Klaus Wunderlich type of organ-sounds are fine.

Guitars :
Boy, do they sound great ! You can hear that the DSP's are derived from real E-guitar DSP's. Very convincing sounds, effects and expressiveness.
All the styles use the guitar-engine : regardless of the chord played, the notes are within the range and played in the sequence like you would on a real guitar. I haven't tried it, but I was ensured by a Yamaha representative that this also can be used in your own custom styles. For me this would be a much used functionality, so again lots of points on my personal realism-scale ! T2 doesn't offer this.

Synths/Pads :
derived from the Motif, which I tried a week before. I must say the out-of-the-box sounds are better from the T3. Synth sounds are very,very personal cause they do not refer to excisting instruments, so go and hear for yourself. The sounds are very useable, but it's no replacement for the in-depth en wicked stuff you can do with a real Synth. But Again, I'll use the Triton for that, so no reason for ME to walk away from the T3.

Vocals / Strings / Orchestral Ensemble :
I personally prefer the KORG sounds, which have more layered effects and can sound more impressive. On the T3 these sounds are less thin then on the T2, but there's still room for improvement left.

Drums & Bass :
WOW ! this is where I really got excited about the T3 and where it will prove to be a worthwile addition to my (studio)setup !
Drums and Bass sound very natural and really KICK ! Yamaha said goodbye to decades of offering only very thin Bass and Drum sounds. The tyros-speakers yamaha can provide can in NO WAY do justice to these sounds. This add's a great deal to the overall soundquality of any music produced on the T3.

Summary :
The Tyros range has the reputation of being a "wedding & one man band" keyboard. The demo's Yamaha have been giving world wide are trajected on to that usergroup, which I think is a shame. Although they're now selling 100 T3's daily....I think it could have easily been more.

Price :
It's expensive and I'm paying for al kinds of stuff I don't need, but to me it's worth it for fullfilling MY PERSONAL needs within MY PERSONAL budget.
We can expect expansionpacks with new SA2 Voices and Styles, but this will add to the total price. I'm sure I'm gonna be using it a lot over the coming 5 years or so.

It's a matter of doing your homework and finally calculating the pro's and con's and making the right descision for your personal situation.

Welcome to SZ......Great review also I might add....this statement above regarding the drums & bass is where most of the friction between arranger players have confrontational differences through the years...although I have yet to find a T3 anywhere around here to play yet I am always reading reviews and considering players thoughts on the unit as I am always open to new things. I know what I need for my needs and will go for it with reckless abandon to suit my style of playing on stage as a pro performer. As most know I have owned T1, T2, and I think every TOTL Psr model every made also, besides the other manufacturers Units as well. More good HONEST reviews like yours are very needed. I hope you'll participate in discussions here often we have a great group of knowledgeable helpful people here on SZ.

Happy Holidays!

squeak_D,
If the DVD used a "tweaked" machine then you're right it is a bit deceptive.

I've come to the conclusion however that it has a lot to do with the style of playing.

I had a friend of mine play the piano sound as I listened on and it sounded really good UNTIL... he played a single note melody in the upper two thirds of the keyboard. In this area the Concert Grand sounded really bad, we both agreed it was poor. It sounds good if making lots of noise with two handed piano-player-style with lots of base notes (which sound great), but for a solo piano voice on its own with a light backing style, it is poor - the comment was made Casio-like and I'd have to agree.


John/jwyvern,
Thanks for the download, it is an improvement and thanks to you, I think I’ve also discovered that my speakers maybe back to front - lower notes play on the RH speaker and high notes play on the left. Thanks for your effort it is appreciated.

Working with your custom piano it is a little brighter/cleaner which I like, but I think we're at the point of trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear, so for me I guess it's back to the T3's "Live Grand" for me, so in effect it's still the same basic sample as on the original Tyros 1’s “Live Grand”.


MusiCo,
Great post, you've done what I should have done, doing your homework so thoroughly.
I basically trusted Yamaha to deliver what they promised but I suppose for the most part (sans the piano), they have.

Interesting, your evaluation of piano voices on other keyboards as toy pianos.... hmmm... a dilemma if one really wants a decent sounding solo piano voice - I guess one would have to look to other sources for a well sampled sound.

The best piano sound I’ve ever heard (to my ears) that has stuck in my memory, was from a Roland digital piano (can’t remember the model) from a few years ago, nothing’s come close to it so far.
I used to have a couple of good sampled pianos with my Ensoniq that were way better in the midrange than this so called “Concert Grand”.
To me, the vocals are still ordinary with the Tyros 3 and one shouldn’t have to go and buy COSTUM voices (typo intended) to make up for a lacking top of the line keyboard.
But I suppose there’s profit to be had isn’t there.

You're right about the drums etc. I hadn't really paid much attention to them because of my fixation with the piano voice, but I'd have to agree they are definitely more present. Reminds me of the CVP109 I had. When I received my first Tyros 1 the first thing I noticed was the loss of impact of the bass/drums. The T3 has finally brought them back on stage.

I'm not sure why everybody gets so worked up about the demos sounding a bit different to the OOTB sound...

Surely it's a piece of cake to rip the DVD, demo, whatever, import it to the HD of the T3, and play it through exactly the same speakers, D/A converters, etc..? Then all you need to do is tweak the T3's settings until they match.

What's so hard about this?

Quoting Chris/newman

"Thanks for the download, it is an improvement and thanks to you, I think I’ve also discovered that my speakers maybe back to front - lower notes play on the RH speaker and high notes play on the left".


Chris,
Interesting you should say that. I had previously found with Ty3 that voices panned left or right in mixing console would play through the "wrong" side speakers. I had to swap the line out jacks around, even though they had been "correct" as far as markings were concerned.
I'd previously found it necessary to do that with Ty2, discovered when recording from line out into PC.
John

MusiCo,
Nice review,
Just curious if the PA2 was a Version 2 OS or the old stuff?

OS2 has a lot of really good acoustic sounds as compared to 1.11, With the addition of Defined Nuance Control feature.

Lee

[This message has been edited by leeboy (edited 11-29-2008).]

Lee, thx for the compliment. The PA2 was a V 2.0 OS, finding the DNC sounds a huge improvement. The Yammie sounds have more "depth" in the acoustic department i.m.o. and overall the number of "lifelike" acoustic instruments on the Yammie was greater, also taking in count the acoustic drums etc.

But I have to say, PA2 had good nylon string guitar and tenor sax, and I guess with a little tweaking done to it, it could sounds a bit more "soulfull".
For my likings, the T3 was more realistic, I guess because of the use of a larger amount of samples per tone.

MusiCo,
Thanks for the clarification...on the OS2.

Personally I am going to spend some time with a T3, preferably here at my house on a 30 day test.

Depending on the side by side tests with my PA2...strictly on sound quality as I NEED and WANT...I will either sell the PA2 and keep the T3 or return the T3.

If it was up to keybed, features, programming MIDI implementation, flexibility etc the Korg will win hands down...but we will see how sound compares...playing my type of music ...the way I play it!

My guess right now is I will be keeping the PA2.

Lee

I'm looking forward to playing one. We'll have one available at the Shreveport Jam in January.
As for the drums and bass, I must be from Missouri: Show Me! Not that I don't WANT to believe, but I've heard it all before. I hope this time it's for real.
MusiCo, may I add my welcome to the forum and my thanks for a great, in-depth review from an obviously knowledgeable player.
Newman, same to you and thanks for your review.
DonM

Amen to that, Lee !
I'm curious : which sounds are you going to focus on in your compare ?



[This message has been edited by MusiCo (edited 12-02-2008).]

Don, if played over a high-quality speaker system, the drums will be amazing. I know with the tyros 1, 2 they also stated improvement in the drums-department.
This time it's for real, after being impressed with the acoustic sounds it was the drums that seduced me into ordering the T3.

Can someone confirm that they're actually NEW drum samples? As stated previous models were said to have improved drums. Are these new samples in the Tyros 3 or did Yamaha just make DSP changes.., and possibly back off the compression to make the older kits sound better?

MusiCo,
Well, mostly orchestrial sounds. And all Piano types. Strings are important to me, especially solo violin, cello.

I guess really the solo violins, strings, clarinets, sax, flute, oboe, all horns (I especially like french horns), upright bass, and all other orchestial stuff. Also, other sounds used in solo meleody.

I could care less if they took all the synth sounds out. Well, maybe that's an exageration.

I will be concerned about the sample quality, consistancy of sound and vibrato note-note on the entire instruments range. I will also care about the keybed feel as compared to my PA2. Even though that will not be a killer as 61 is not enogh for me and because of Yamaha's stubbord ness! I will have a 76 note MIDI board under it.
It sure will be interesting.

Lee

Squeak,

All the drumkits sound better, not because of changes to the DSP settings, but because the DSP are truely brand new processors. The effects quality and characteristics are much better and as a result I can imagine they just MUST have reprogrammed the DSP on nearly each and every sound.

I can't find any proof for this, but after hearing it, I'd put my money on the new Rock-kit being a brand new sampled one.
But then again, if they made it sound this good by tweaking the DSP's, I wouldn't mind that it's not "new".

Your question indirectly triggered some long had frustration of mine : people expecting new arranger/synth models to be all-new revolutionary stuff. I can't help sharing my opinion with you guys, I'm sorry for that...but it's cheaper than the shrink :-) So here it goes :

In the last twelve years orso the realism of synthetically generated "acoustic instruments" has made a huge,giant, larger-than-large leap. Right ?
Now compare Tyros3's breathy tenorsax with the 10 year old tenorsax the VL-1 gave us and the difference is not all that big anymore. The Virtual Acoustic Modelling technology didn't make it past that stage : it hasn't evolved, despite of being used in the VL-7, VL-70m and VL boards for the Motif XS and so on. On the contrary, the soundquality became worse and worse 'cause ever cheaper and less DSP's where used in an attempt to make this technology payable.
We, the arranger/synth customers, didn't embrase such radical technology and didn't want to pay the prices. I believe that VAM was lightyears ahead of it's time : it gave some analog-type of modelling and realism at a time when "digitallity" ruled. People didn't see it's worth and so the PCM (sample) technique is the only one to evolve to this day. I think we are approaching the limits : extreme costs in a growing number of samples per tone will definine that limit. That's the reason no new model of a synth/arranger or what so ever will be a "revolution" in the acoustic sounds department anymore. That's also the reason many manufacturers re-use samples/sounds and only 'tweak' them, because it's way too expensive to keep making new ones and the costs outweigh the improvements.
That's why I find the new DSP's a revolutionary improvement ; that's an area where they (Yamaha) still could make a lot of improvement.

i.m.o. most of the future instrument releases won't be a big improvement and upgrading will become more and more questionable as the new models will become loaded with "goodies" only there to tempt you to think it's a "revolution".

(PS : yes, I know Korg and Roland using "reed"-modelling, Virtual Acoustic Boards and so on, but they haven't by any mile approached the realism and soundquality of the VL and VX. They just copied part of the idea and there it seems to end. I also don't see/hear anything about large investments into R&D for these kinds of techniques from any of the major companies).

--
And..i couldn't careless if they took out the french horns!thank the good heavens you don't work for the 'stubborn' yamz!



[This message has been edited by mr9000 (edited 12-02-2008).]

mr9000,
Excuse me...I was discussing what sounds are and are not important to me...that's allowed here...last I checked.

If your going to quote me, at least don't leave out the part where I said'That might be an exagaration'

Like a politician?

Lee

My guess would be you're gonna stick with the PA2, then ! Ensemble sounds I think KORG has the far more impressive multi-layered sounds, whereas Yamaha has the more crisp and thinner orchestrals. Great for accompaniment, but too thin for lead.

About this 61 vs 76 keys, out of curiousity : what is it you do to use acoustic instruments in a range that goes beyond the 61-key range in the same song.
Is you split point far right or using multiple splitpoints? I'm happy with the octave up and down buttons and find them to do the job for me, but then again I don't use the arranger for piano work.

The "stubberness" of Yamaha is partially understandable : If given the choice, most of their clients (prospects) will prefer the 61-keys. The studio-, synth- and piano players will be the ones wanting more keys, they are more likely to already have a 76 or 88 key they can use as controller keyboard. The development costs and separate production lines needed for an extra 76 key are immens, both as internal components and exterior need changes.
This would put the T3 in even a higher pricerange, lifting it completely out of the "arranger keyboard" market.
Same happened with the psr9000 : they made that in a 76 keys after lots of people the world over complained about the 61 key limit. when it was there, almost none of the former complainers bought it.
It wasn't a succes and probably they made a loss on that 76 model.
Although I think it had more to do with the moment of the productrelease: at the end of the lifecycle of the PSR9000 model, when most of us either already had a 61-key 9000 or was waiting for the T1 to show up.

I wonder how many of you are now NOT buying the T3 only because of the 61-key limit, and can state they surely would have payed the extra $800,- it if there was a 76 key model with maybe some fancy 'pro-features' added.

MusiCo,
Well, the problem with 61 for me is chord area not so much melody. But if you move the split to the right enough for nice area for chords then it's too small for some leads. And vice versa.

The answer is in the difference in cost between a Motif XS6 vs a XS7...how much $$$ only $700. And in Korg a 61 vs 73 is only $400 difference.

Yes, I would pay $400 - 700 more for 76 T3.

It is interesting that a 61 Motif XS6 is $2,199 and a 61 T3 is $3,899. $1,700 More!! Apples and Oranges for sure, but???

So, the next time a gigging PRO on stage with one of the big groups using a Motif SX (or other synth in that range) says...T3...oh that's a toy (home) keyboard...you can say back...it costs at least $1,700 more than yours, it's no toy! :-)
lee

Lee

Didn't break mine. I suggest he return it and find something he wont be disappointed in. That is far too much money to throw down on a keyboard that doesn't have the basic fundamentals one expects.

Id did it with the PA2x...took my $300 beating and moved on. There isn't s single keyboard for everyone.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 12-03-2008).]

I could care less if they took all the synth sounds out. Well, maybe that's an exageration.
--------------------------------------------

Alright..so what exactly is the message you are conveying then?..that your are 50/50 in favor of loving or leaving synth voices.Doesn't make sense.The above statement is pointless with no direction,no?

Of course you are allowed to say whatever you think!!but too this..politician..can voice on the voiced.As you may know now,i absolutly love synth voices is all.

Simple,

I said I didn't care if they took all the synth voices out or not, then simple said maybe that's an exageration...It means maybe I exaherated (means making it a bigger deal than it was!)when I said I didn't care about synth sounds. ( I use them some)

It was not a useless statement.

That's all...no big deal.

Lee

And not to mention also, most 76 note keyboards have E as the bottom note.. Excellent when doing left hand bass songs...(LOL, although not when you need drop tuning!!! )

Dennis

I'm hopeful that Yami will continue to work on the piano voicing on the T3 and possibly release some additional "premium" piano voices for purchase by the Tyros 3 owner body. I like the 'concert grand' sound, but as many have commented, it's a bit thin compared to the clavinovas and other high-end digi-pianos.

Obviously Yamaha was under pressure to differentiate the AW Tyros 3 from it's "higher end" "all-piano" models.

Others here have commented that the technology exists, if they had ramped up the on-board memory and gone with more of a truly sampled piano voice (for each and every of the 88 keys) they could have really done something.

I know they have to draw lines in the sand for product cost, and as Steve D reminded me, no single user will be totally thrilled with "every" voicing of every instrument on any A/W TOTL board.

Next issue: Your speakers and your EQ/Compression settings are critical. The board will only sound as good as the final output device and signal settings.

Many have written about changing away from default compression and/or EQ. I shall be playing with those as well.

As each day goes by, I enjoy my T3 more and more, much as others have written. You need to get acclimated to the different keybed feel as compared with the PSR S900.

Kingfrog rightly says the S900 is selling like wildfire and it's an easier sale, from a pure pricepoint perspective, much like Chevy sells lots more Malibus than Corvettes.

The on/off switch could be placed better, or in lieu of that, use a rocker switch instead of the plunger style.

I am enjoying quite a load of new voicings on the Tyros 3 that the S900 doesn't have, most especially the wonderful organ sounds.

Vocal harmonizer is a non-feature to me, my voice is just plain bad now that I'm in my golden years. Heck, it happened to Frank Sinatra, who am I to bellyache about it?

The #1 most enjoyable feature of the T3 is the ability to load up a MIDI tune on your USB stick, and play lead or what ever and record ALL of that to your built-in hard drive on the Tyros 3.

That's just unbelievably SIMPLE comparted to trying to synch up with your PC and fighting the inevitable LATENCY issues.

Plus, you're recording in real stereo, WAV file, not merely MIDI files, which are a LOT nicer to send around to your friends or relatives, as the MIDIS tend to sound god-awful on most folks PC's with low-end audio cards 'standard'.

With the voicing power of the T3, you want to show off just how great those instruments sound, and when you record to your onboard hard drive, it could hardly be easier, JMO.

I have spend innumerable hours fighting with my dual-xeon workstation only to get mediocre recording results, even using Steinberg's CUBASE AI. That's no can of corn if you're new to PC music production.

The Tyros 3 is just ideal. You record a track, hit the stop button, the entire song is rewound to the BEGINNING instantly. You can undo mistakes with a single button press, well, Tyros 3 owners know what I'm yakking about.

Hats off to Yamaha, great product.

[This message has been edited by rsm2000e (edited 02-13-2009).]

So you bought this unit just by demos alone ....or did you actually go try it in person thru your sound system & then make a decision? Did your dealer offer a return time period also?

What speakers are you using with your T3? And what are your EQ and Compression settings?

I am frustrated and want to get this thing to sound as good as it does on all the YouTube videos I've seen... so far it's not quite there...

ALSO___ I note a momentary delay when I hit the BALANCE button and then pull the slide bars up or down to adjust volume on the Song, Style, Right Voice 1,2,3... does any one else notice this apparent "Lag" between when you first move the slider (to adjust a specific volume up or down) and when the sound actually "adjusts"??? Or do I have a defective board??

Thanks.

I'm totally satisfied with the Tyros 3. My initial concerns were simply caused by an incomplete understanding of the board and how it's 'different' from my PSR S900. It's a GREAT instrument, in my view.

Cheers...

[This message has been edited by rsm2000e (edited 02-13-2009).]

One thing you may also notice is that the keybed on the Tyros is much firmer than the PSR S900. You might want to alter the touch to soft1 or soft2 setting, so that the instruments like sax will give you the full range of sound that you're looking for. Otherwise the way you have to really hammer the keys to get the full expression range out of the Sax may wind up with you feeling 'disappointed' in the sound, when in reality it's simply an adjustment to the amound of key pressure that's needed.. fortunately, this is easily changed in the settings area of this board. The downside of this is that OTHER instruments sound better with the "normal" keybed pressure setting.... so it's more "touchy" than the PSR S900, which isn't necessarily bad...

Thanx for the reply ......getting something that is perfect for YOUR needs only is the tricky part

I'm happy with the T3. It DOES take some getting used to, though. Steve D. at Yami reminded me that instrument voicings are truly in the ear of the beholder. Once you look at it that way, it's all good... not every voice may be 'it' for you, but believe me, there are a BUNCH of great-sounding voices on the Tyros 3, including some 'newer' stuff like the hip hop and some nice edgy synth sounds. If you want to make good music and not spend a lifetime flipping switches and tweaking settings to get there, the T3 is it... (JMO)

[This message has been edited by rsm2000e (edited 02-13-2009).]

Hi rsm
Go into Voice set Common tab when a SA2 voice is loaded and set both the Touch Sense & Depth offset for it up from 64 to about say 70.
Then you should get more expression without having to upset the global touch and without thumping the keys so hard.

John

[This message has been edited by jwyvern (edited 02-07-2009).]

And then we wonder why brick and mortar stores are going broke, and arrangers are getting harder and harder to actually 'try BEFORE you buy' all across the country.

Didn't it occur to you that the store that allowed you to play the unit had an expectation of your purchase after they had gone to the considerable expense of buying the unit (Yamaha don't LEND them to stores!) for their customers to try...?

Next time you can't find a new keyboard to try, have to buy one just to see what it can do, and lose 15% or so restocking fee when you return it (and several others) before you find what you want, remember your part in that fiasco.

You know, as hard as it is getting hands on on these incredibly expensive instruments, if it were me, I would charge $100 for every person that wanted to try a TOTL arranger in my store, refundable against the purchase of one. Would I sell a few less? Perhaps... But perhaps not, with guys like this using me as a 'demo' site and buying elsewhere...

Support your local dealer! Or one day (pretty soon now) he won't be there at all...

Common Diki get real!! INTERNET sales rule in todays world ....its a new ball game baby!

And you, of all people, know how expensive chasing down that elusive 'perfect arranger' can be when you have to either restock, or sell slightly 'used' anything you try...

Just imagine if no Ketron dealer were even WILLING to put on an Audya clinic, because of the knowledge that all the participants would then leave, find the cheapest online price they could get, and leave them with costs and no profit?

Then you WOULD have to buy one, just to find out what was wrong with it (as you have with nearly everything else, at one time or another!). And at maybe $5k a pop, that's not going to be easy, especially if it IS as flawed as we think it is, to unload.

It maybe the future, but stores may be the past. At least for the increasingly rare TOTL arranger...

Geez Diki, lighten up will ya'. Retail (brick and mortar) stores are open to the public to serve the consumer's needs and interest. If they can't compete with online (or wholesale) stores, who's to blame a person for buying elsewhere? If a person doesn't want all the "frills" of extra after sales services, that is a person's choice, right, and "prerogative" to chose not to go that route.

I feel for guys like George Kaye and others who own traditional brick and mortar retail stores and are struggling to survive in an age of much larger internet retailers and brick and mortar wholesalers out there like GC. It's called competition and to be truthful only the strong (and more economically feasible) companies survive. That's the nature of owning a business and having products that are comparable in price to your competition. If certain retail joints can't survive the market then they have to consider their choices and either try harder to compete or else maybe look for another line of work or business that would suit them better economically. Plain and simple truth, even though mom and pop stores add so much more to the buying experience than you can get at online stores and/or wholesalers. But a person has the right to shop wherever he or she wants. It's called "freedom" of choice. We live in America (or for those in Europe, Europe), we don't live in Russia or North Korea, right?

PS: For those who realize the overall benefit of the mom and pop experience i.e. "after sales service satisfaction", and choose to go that route I say bully for them. And I'm all for George and the guy on the East Coast succeeding and thriving in today's market too. They are really great guys and very personable and outgoing in their demeanor towards their customers and those here on the SZ. But consumers in America and Europe have the choice of doing what they think is in their best interest. Who are we to say different? It's a free society. Unlike Russia and you know who..

All the best,
Mike

[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 02-07-2009).]

I guess I dont have to repeat what Mike just said above....& with that said gentleman it's Saturday night time to go GIG baby!!!

CYA

I'm not off until nine or so (gig's 300 yards away!), so I'd just like to say this...

If it WEREN'T getting almost impossible to find a TOTL or even MOTL arranger anywhere near you, sure, I'd say this isn't an issue at all. But almost every last one of us has noticed over the last few years how many stores that USED to carry arrangers have stopped altogether.

And, I can't for the life of me think of anything other than internet sales (and using the store as a free demo showroom) as the cause...

Perhaps you could tell me of another reason?

And if Yamaha don't rigorously enforce their own MAP pricing structure (it would be simple to pose as customers and see what is REALLY being quoted), and other manufacturers too, perhaps it is time for the manufacturers to place product in the stores at no cost to the dealer until it is sold...?

They MUST be losing sales due to unavailability to try out (not everyone can afford that leap of faith, or want the inconvenience of shipping a keyboard back to the dealer). It seems unfair to the dealer to make him BUY something, and then do nothing to protect him from dealers willing (or able) to turn only a slight profit and benefit from increased volume at the expense of the brick and mortar store... In violation of the MAP, at that.

Time to drastically reduce the cost to the dealer of just being able to SHOW the product, especially as the manufacturer encourages (by inaction) others to benefit from that dealers willingness to put his money on the line...

Steve,
Why not respond to the questions a lot of us have on the T3 Piano?

How do we get the same sound as on the Demo?
The equivelant of the Clavinova which is outstanding.

Or...maybe we can't? If that is true...I wander why?

Thanks,
Lee

Maybe it's just that the demo was probably (possibly? ) PLAYED on an 88 wood controller (although it used the T3 piano) and the touch sensitivity curve on those promotes a much higher degree of pianism?

Also, you have to ask yourself, are you the pianist that the demonstrator was? As with most sounds, it's the way you play it, and not the sound itself that has MUCH to do with a demo's realism...

Low end Casio units etc, ... at Costco, BJ's Sams Club etc......for cheap are selling like hotcakes vs TOTL or MOTL arrangers.Poeple dont need expemnsive KB's to start out with.

Music stores in general have plumetted in sales the last 15+ years due to less & less people playing instruments vs DJ's, Karaoke artists, & everything else the kids are doing today to make music.

Manufacturers lack of educating their buyers on their products with instructional DVD's, good well written manuals, etc etc, .....this creates loss of attention & interest after the sale.

We are the last generation of real players learned in the ways of "OLD SCHOOL" after us its over ......don't you see it coming?
If you already have experience and talent as a player worship it...share it, enjoy whats left of it.

shall I continue or are you getting the picture....or do you want to look at the Blakpool Festival pictures again to remind you of who's playing arrangers!

Most sales of Arrangers/Organs in the past meant going to the shop and trying them out, or listening to the manufactures demonstrators in store. (The idea of buying something without at least hearing it was a big No No)

Moving to today, More demos then you could ever get in a store are available on the web (Pro and amateur) and so the reason to go to the store and try is (To most buyers) pointless, (Yes most on this site know the only true way is to try it, but 99% of Arranger sales go to customers who haven’t a clue how feel and operation can make a difference, they are simply bowled over by the demos) hence internet sites with low overheads (Compared to bricks and mortar) now rule the roost.

Competition is good (And there is plenty of it in Russia these days) but if you look at most advances in technology, it has usually been the smaller guys that move it forward, not the big boys. (Unfortunately the smaller guys are swamped by the big boys and so quite a lot of advancement is lost) (The downside of competition)

Fortunately most of the smaller guys have now moved into software (VSTs etc) which leave the big boys for dead, (The big boys hardware cannot match the small guys software) and consequently if you want the best (Leaves most hardware for dead) at a cheaper price, then you go the software route. (If you don’t believe this look at modern film and music production and you will see that hardware while still used has lost out big time)

Will this continue in the future, who knows?

Just be thankful that small manufactures and dealers exist, as otherwise the big boys become what Russia used to be. (Choice disappears out of the window, and you have to buy what the big boys provide)

Regards

Bill

Bill...


Interesting thoughts for sure...

I feel as soon as companies can produce "QUALITY" PC software arranger programs on computer that can reproduce what a stand alone "Arranger" can do via MIDI "IN REAL TIME" with NO difficulties or latency with top quality Styles & Sounds & have the "EASE" of use with "ALL" on-board features in real time as we have with today's keyboard arrangers we will be on the way to a new era. Then all you would need is a lightweight controller of your choice, speakers & a Laptop on stage or at home. This day can't come fast enough
Please hurry.

I am in favor of 'in the flesh' music stores whenever possible.

[This message has been edited by rsm2000e (edited 02-14-2009).]

When all is said & done Money is the bottom line you can philosophy all you want......plain & simple. Everyone is out for themselves in this survival game we all play. Hang in there things are going to get worse for some & better for others. With all the big problems in the world where do you thing the Arranger keyboard is on the list? You are your best salesman....use it to your advantage, don't be naieve & think out of the box when you buy something........good luck.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-08-2009).]

Don;t feel sorry for loacl brick and mortar stores. Not all of them are struggling. The smart ones know what to carry and more importantly............. what NOT to.
And Thats why we don't carry any Pro Level Workstations and only one Tyros 3 and no PA2x or PA800's but we do carry lots of and sell MOTL Arrangers...!

Yes the Internet is a good place to buy and Big wow save the TAX!!! LOL. But expect to see and touch the product for the first time and Pay dearly to return it negating and tax savings.

In choosing product selection wisely, Online sales are not all that harmful to MI. Where MI used to make 50%-60% profit, the margins are half that now. Ya think thats THATS why Best Buy is is going into the MI business?.

Way higher margins than TVs and PCs. (Frank knows)

The store I work has over a million net in inventory and everything down to the pick holders are PAID for. No flooring of Grand Pianos or anyone's products, No bank loans. Thats the way to stay successful in times like these. Zero debt,no financing and we dropped Gibson a few years ago after (25 years) not willing to be a "profitable warehouse" for their requirements and other manufacturers who believe they are selling the Holy Grail. Gibson lost 80% of their independents, I'm sure it was part of their "new" business plan under Henry. They are calling but no one is picking up the phone.

We lost nothing in revenue, Replaced them easily. OF all musicians, Pro keyboard players are the worst in local demonstrators and on line buyers. We tried selling the TOTL Workstations and Arrangers, They were demoed a lot but did not sell. We did not reorder, Guitar players tend to buy what they play (especially the high dollar stuff). Piano, DJ, Home studio and local PA buyers want local support from people who can teach them how to use the gear or a place to go to get a blown amp or speaker handled now for tonights gig.

Especially being a store that is open 12 hours a day 7 days a week and closes 2 days a year because we are a two level store in a MAll anchored by JC Pennys, Neiman,and Sears, The additional rent negates the need for an advertising budget everyone knows who we are,where we are and what we sell in town and those who come from out of town.

We sell and stock primarily MOTL arrangers because the people who buy them tend to NEED support and a place to go to have their questions answered and free lessons on how to use them,therefore are less inclined to buy online to save $100 tax.

We are paid an inconsequential 2.5 -5% "commission" on serial number item and don't hire kids for little money. Our youngest employee is over 35 (which makes medical costs higher for the owner but pays itself back in zero in house shrinkage and commitment and work ethic) most of the three non family members who work here have other income and come to "work" because they ENJOY it.

All That benefits the customer in that we can and will turn over anyone to some who knows more about playing a particular instrument or item without worrying about commission loss. We hire people that can DEMO ANYTHING in the store and specialize in a few areas that are not afraid to call on another sales guy for help on a product they don't play or know as well. What are they going to lose? $7 on a $300 bass? LOL

We have 9 employees two of us work 30 hours a week by choice,one works 20. There are no managers, no targets, no processes. We ALL manage our specialty. We know the break even point and have complete flexibility in pricing, no running to the boss for "approval," no targets, and with all this, the owner is hugely successful and still works 10 hour days in his late 60's. Go figure. No Internet sales presence. That requires another full time person and a warehouse.

The owner who has had a few stores for 35 years is happy with just one now the way things are. I have never worked for a better human being. I worked for a major Corp for years early in life and never received a couple thousand dollar Christmas bonus,working part time, at a friggin music store!! just because the "boss" likes to share his profits. We go the extra mile because we like THE WAY HE DOES BUSINESS.We are all musicians and know the business of BUYING. We understand the customers.


Hire kids pay them nothing for the "privilege " of working for you and there you you go. Guitar Center. Independents can compete with the Internet. Just have to be cash and carry and hire good people who care about the business because they care about the owner and are passionate about music or some aspect of it.

The margins are good because Best Buy is getting into MI and the margins although 1/2 of what the were are before the Internet deluge and MAP pricing are still far higher then TVs and computers,

When places like GC cannot stay healthy in a MAP environment owning an Internet store, you know the margins are still good for those who can pay as they go and stay away from credit to operate their businesses. Remember MAP is ONLY an Advertising price. Dealers can sell a Tyros or Korg PA2x for $2800 or less if they want to, We can but we don't need to. We can afford to wait for a buyer who needs the support and sell something else with higher margins, in the meantime.

So why carry the Tyros at all? Because I sell 90% of the PSR900s off a Tyros Demo. Go from $4000 to $1700 using the same styles and sounds, then explaining what the additional $2300 buys them in the T3 and the PSr s900 is a slam dunk.


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-08-2009).]

Another thing that's is a cause for stores downfalls is the horrible sales personnel who have no clue whats going on besides not having any inventory that most people are looking for. Just walk around one of these stores and you'll see what I mean...ask a question and its LA LA Land....the customer know so much more when he walks in then any of the people working there ....although I did get a straight answer a few weeks ago at a GC store..... I asked where the men's room was an sure enough to my surprise they knew where that was go figure


Oh well tomorrow Fran is talking me gear shopping again and I'll have to indure this scenario all over again...

Tell me i did not just read that? A BEHRINGER keyboard Amp is going to reveal; the true sound of the TYROS? You will have more luck with Logitech!! We carry Behringer. Strictly price point product. ROLAND makes a keyboard Amp. The Yamaha Stock Tyros Speakers are better representation of the Tyros then a Beringer amp unless LOUD is the criteria for better. The PAS300 is the next step up as its even Stereo!



Another GEM... DO you really think I want to sell 4 Tyros' to make the same as selling ONE waiting for the right buyer. in the mean time using it to sell pallets of PSR S900s?

I would rather use the time (and warehouse space) to sell a $300 Samick and a million other products that turn over far quicker at the SAME margins, rather then spending hours to demo a keyboard for the same dollars a couple of far faster selling cheap guitars would net.


Business 101 - VOLUME does NOT make up for margin over the long run in a small market business.

Maybe at Costco and Walmart and the A&P or 7-11. Not at the local MI store. Even GC is learning Volume sales aren't the ticket. Try to buy at GC lower than MAP nowadays.

The MARGIN between wholesale and map is the same on a PSR 213 and a Clavinova when you conduct business using MARGIN as it should be conducted. Margin is everything. Not dollar spread. Most Fender has the same MAP margins whether $5000 custom shop or $100 Squires. If a dealer is willing to give up margin he probably is in another business with thin margins and is already set up for it and is selling the non mainline gear as a sideline for lower margins yet HIGHER then they are used to. Best Buy saw that as well........Betcha Best Buy will sell at MAP pricing even though in their case, MI will be a sideline business. Betcha Best Buy sales "associates" will have to go running to a "manager" for a $5 discount approval.

In fact from what I see locally they are selling above MAP. We easily beat their prices and have far more flexibility to do so and far more inventory.

Now that said, I will sell well below MAP to a regular customer, an overstock, a floor model, a cash buyer, or if we are not renewing a line, need to make room for a new line and MAP no longer is relevant.

IE What Seattle Music is doing with their Gibson product in Ebay right now since they too dropped the line. There are a few things that buyers have to pay up for for local support or they can buy off the Internet and take their chances to save the tax. We don't compete with low ball sellers. The masses don't know who they are. Its not Sweetwater Sound. LOL. But Thats the reason for MAP policy. Without MAP NO local stores would exist. Manufacturers are not that stupid to think everyone will people will buy sight unseen on line. MAP protects the brick and Mortar Stores. Its not "price fixing" We can sell anything for any price we choose. We cannot ADVERTISE those prices though Our computers all have Internet and I look everything up with the customer. Keep in mind successful businesses and products don't HAVE to be deeply discounted. Only unsuccessful ones in trouble needing every dollar in cash flow to to make a note payment stay afloat go into that death spiral.

Who works harder for the same money the Chevy Salesman of the BMW Salesman? Who HAS to discount more? Which company is more successful? Treat BMWs like Chevys and no one will want a BMW .


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-08-2009).]

Look, here's the point...

Would you buy a $3500 arranger without playing it first..? If you would, well, fine.

But even you thought it necessary to drive into the city, and play one. Now imagine a world where all but the few stores that survive going bottom dollar (and even flourishing chains like Mars have gone bust playing that game) close down, or, as Kingfrog points out, only stock items that move quickly. TOTL arrangers are NOT in that category.

So, your opportunity to try one out dries up completely, and you are FORCED to 'buy before you try'. Maybe you live in the NY area, or another highly dense population area. You MIGHT have one of the handful of surviving stores that stock these. But odds are, you are not. So, the question again... would you buy a $3500 arranger without playing it first?

No?

I guess the 'honorable' thing to do then, would be to ask the store FIRST about the price, and if they won't match your online quote, DON'T PLAY THE ARRANGER IN THE STORE... You aren't going to buy from him, why should he give you a free demo, knowing you'll not give him your business?

Would you play a free gig for someone, knowing they weren't going to hire you again? I doubt it. But you'll happily go into someone's store, play his very expensive arranger, and walk out and buy it elsewhere...

Mark my words. Keep this up, and virtually NO-ONE will stock them at all (remind you of what's actually happening? )

The Key to the survival of bricks and mortar stores is to add value which is the same principle for any business to survive in a price competitive environment. The internet based sellers are limited in the additional value they can add as they are driven by price. But it doesnt take a huge amount of imagination to think about aftersales service that would give bricks and mortar shops a competitive edge.

I will give you just a few examples

How about providing a voucher that will enable a purchaser to try the instrument in the shop which they pay for up front but if they then purchase gets taken off the purchase price ???

Or how about after purchase providing the customer a with technical/musical support /advice via email or telephone from its own knowledgeable staff ?

or how about arranging workshops for its customers to get the best from the product after purchase perhaps on days that business is slow ?

The voucher won't work. Besides Everytime I fire up the Tyros or especially the 900 in the store for a demo a crowd develops. I demoed one 900 to a person in December who bought it and all four people that stood around watching the demo came back in January and bought either it or the 700.

I offer FREE in store operating lessons because when someone comes in and I am answering questions and we are teaching each other again a crowd will develop and sales result.

Cannot do this with workstations. Regualr people don;t buy Motifs. They DO buy Arrangers. They do NEED support and DEMOS sell the product to more than the person asking for one. The fact that I know the board INSPIRES CONFIDANCE.

I Always demo the board playing MAry Had a Little Lamb over Cma7 Dm7 and back S I M P L E. Even a caveman can do it. THATS what sells the keyboard. Simplicity creates mega music. Every time I switch up styles I play the SAME THING. Then I bring in the harmony on a playback of tootracks Natural Woman because the harmonies are AUTOMATIC with the MIDI karaoke file.

Keeping it simple is what sells. Not playing NY state of Mind or ant complicated pieces. Playing what the customer can do right there right now whether or not they have ever played before.

There are far more inclined to buy from someone who KNOWS the instrument, someone who is showing off their chops making them feel they "can't do that." That kind of service and demo beats paying the tax every time. Yeah I can sell a Tyros for $3200. But why should I? I can sell two Samich guitars and make that kind of profit in 30 minutes. If I am going to spend an hour demoing a board then HOURS later after the sale. I will not cheapen the board buy discounting it 20% off MAP on the floor and make a couple cheap guitar sales in profits for the store.

Kingfrog.....EXACTLY!

I love to go to a store like yours...and work WITH the people, demo, play around with ideas, teach each other stuff.

When I was buying elctronic organs back in the 70's --- 80's I went to the Lions store in Toledo Ohio where I lived. Lenny, Denny etc were super. (Denny Hinman later joined the Yamaha teem and traveled the world doing product demo/sales) They played for their own fun, demoed all the time and when I went in...no pressure to buy anything...AND YES a crowd would usually gather. During those years of the haydays of the organ...I bought a Conn Prelude, a Thomas Belair, Lawrence Welk, Trionon, and lastly a Celebrity Royale....I spent a dollar or 2 there for sure. They took trade-ins.

Of course there was no Internet...but all the reasons in your two posts above is WHY I bought anything...it was fun!
They had free into lessons on any instrument and anytime you showed up they would show you something musical or about a new model etc. No sales pressure at all.

No idiot saying 'Hey man, what can I get out of the warehouse for you today' crap!

Unfortuneatly today it is rare to find a place like that...sounds like you work for one! GREAT! Wish you were in Ft. Wayne, IN.
Frank and George ...same game.

Yes, here we have the giant Sweetwater Sound...there OK, BUT they do not offer what you described...no way no how!

So, It's not fun to go there like I remember when going to Lion's store a while ago...I miss it.

Unfortunatly, can't just pop in at your place, Farnks, or Georges.
So...I do without. Keep up the good work.
Lee

But Motif's outsell arrangers (at least in a similar price range) what, 10-1? Perhaps not in your store, with such an arranger advocate demoing them, but that's about the figure in most stores, isn't it..?

Seems to be a shortage of 'regular' people...

Im sure they sell. We don;t sell them though. We tried and they took up floor space. Pro players and OMB around here buy Workstations but off the net. No OMB people use Arrangers, I sell to "regular" people meaning mostly retired player who may play for the Moose Lodge or retirement home. These guys have no use for a WS. They can be considered HOME users with an occasional "gig" Even my wife who can take the Tyros to her gigs or the PA2x would rather RECORD it and play the BG tracks taking 88 instead.

We had Motifs, Tritons and they sat for a year, Arrangers at $1600 sell far more. We turn about 4-5 s900's a month and other boards. The Tyros will sit for awhile. We have an MO6 and MO8 in a box. People who buy them already know what they want. No need to demo them. But maybe we will sell a couple a year. It's retirement and Snow Bird country as well as vacationers and they buy Arrangers,they want support, A few have Clavinovas in their northern homes and want the S900 for their Summer digs.I can say with confidence The avg age of the Arranger buyer is over 50. In fact I have never sold one to any 20 something. those guys buy the WS from MF or Sam Ash, Sweetwater or whomever.

well taken point!

[This message has been edited by rsm2000e (edited 02-14-2009).]

You're right on this!

[This message has been edited by rsm2000e (edited 02-14-2009).]

Sadly, snowbird and retiree music stores are getting hard to find...

As to the gig analogy, if you talked to the bandleader, and found out basically he wasn't going to hire you no matter HOW good you were, you wouldn't bother going to the audition. Why is a non-snowbird store going to stock arrangers they KNOW will be bottom-lined on them and they can't afford to stock them?

One thing I like to do is, when I go in a store, I try to get the salesman to show me what HE thinks is a good keyboard. Then I can pretty much tell straight away if he is just a slacker, or actually knows something about ANYTHING. If he doesn't, and I want to talk prices, I just ask for the store manager. No point rewarding stupidity...

Kingfrog speaks from a fairly unique position... I doubt that many of us live in these retirement areas (Florida retirees tend to go further south than me!), and from experience, even most of those lack a music store with such an emphasis on arrangers. Would that we were all lucky enough to have something like that close by!

I think it's totally cool that this board has such a great number of talented and knowledgeable people willing to share their opinions and expertise! Fantastic resource! Kingfrog clearly knows 'what's going on' in retail, and he has made some very valid points

You too Diki!