One of the fastest ways to screw a good sound up is to EQ and compress it incorrectly, and how many of us consider ourselves experts in the field of sound engineering? (well, OK, how many of us actually ARE experts in that field? probably a MUCH smaller number! )

Let us not forget that in all likelihood, the sounds and styles (and DEFINITELY the samples) were developed without the mastering tools on. Switch them off, and the styles don't go all out of balance, do they? If they do, that's generally the sign of a mix done through a fair amount of compression and EQ...

The trick is to make the mix as balanced as you can at FIRST, and then put on the sheen (if you even need it) with the Finalizer tools.

Also, another point of the Finalizer Tools is, if you are playing out, to adjust for room acoustics and crowd level. Playing quietly to a few people needs a completely different set of EQ and compression (if any!) to playing loudly to a noisy room. But if you make the Finalizer tools as part of the basic sound, you have far fewer options to correct your sound.

Premium speakers are, of course, the answer... If you are playing through anything less than a well balanced, adequately powered system, you are going to end up doing some pretty drastic things to the sound to compensate... the trouble is, of course, whatever you do to one sound with a mastering EQ will affect ALL the sounds, probably to great detriment. Don't spend $3500 on a TOTL arranger, and play it through some crappy $300 monitors or a system designed for the compressed sound of either TV sound or computer sound. Neither of those have any dynamic range...

Bottom line is that these things were voiced at the factory to sound pretty good as is.. by guys with exceptional audio chops. Alter their settings at your peril. Learn what you are doing, always make recordings before and after, so you can judge what you did objectively (rather than making your mind up WHILE you are playing), and always remember that if you are comparing to a CD's sound, ask yourself do you WANT to sound like a CD?

Because the guys playing the music and mixing it did NOT hear it that way (the mastering is put on afterwards) and would not play it or mix it that way if they were playing live. If you want to sound like a real band, you have to PLAY like a real band, and mix and master like a real band...

If you want to MAKE CD's, fine, go for it, but if you are playing to people live, even yourself, give your arranger a chance to be dynamic and turn OFF the damn compressors, and flatten out the EQ's

Sorry for my late reply to this post, but I've lost internet connectivity since 27 Nov.

And now I understand my lost was even bigger than expected. I was attending a Tyros 3 demo session by Peter Baartmans in Mons, Belgium, 29 Nov.

The session lasted for about 1 hour and after having demoed the Tyros 3 using the TRS-02 speakers all I can tell you is that, through a decent set of speakers, the sound is, of course, totally different.

The speakers being used were HK Audio Actor DX with Tyros 3 being routed through a Yamaha mixer.

All I can tell you is:

1) Peter Baartmans is an amazing player and demonstrator, even if it is clear that he feels more confortable with a piano than with an arranger.

2) Tyros 3 rocks through real speakers and this includes the fact that I don't think the sound is so distant from a 'live' sound as normally reported. Of course drums and bass are not so natural as Roland, Kork or Solton, but they sound perfectly reasonable in Tyros 3 (I can't compare it now with Tyros 2 as I never heard the latest's sound through a decent pair of speakers).

3) At the end of the session, Peter was asking some questions from the audience in a very friendly atmosphere and I can confirm he is also a very nice person as well.

4) After being so overwhelmed by Tyros 3 sound and Peter's performance and considering that I couldn't have read the initial post as I had no access to the internet, I did not ask him the EQ and compressor setting he was using during the demonstration and I still regret for not asking that question.

I don't think I will have another chance in my live to ask him again, so you are free to shoot me if you wish....

In conclusion, I would recommend people to listen your choice of arrangers through good speakers, as this can make a huge difference.

Seasons Greatings to all SZoners.

Carlos.


[This message has been edited by Swissman (edited 12-09-2008).]

"If I listen to a demo I want to hear THE KEYBOARD as it's supposed to sound programed by the company"

I'm not sure I follow your logic. Who says the way the "factory" programs any keyboard is the way it is supposed to sound. When I play Tyros3 for friends or myself I have the settings set for what I think sounds best. Doesn't any performer make his instrument sound its best for his audience? I've always thought any programmable keyboard is just a blank page that the user fills in. Anything the factory sets as default is just a template or starting point. There are to many individual tastes for the players likes and dislikes, keyboard location, acoustics, sound systems ect for there to be a pre-programmed "best" setting. Maybe where Yamaha set up it's settings, what you hear is what they thought was best. Maybe not even that much thought even went into anything................
I don't think Yamaha's demo players did anything wrong by using the settings they did. They made their product sound its best. I think that's what their job is........It would be nice if they shared those settings though. It might be fun to load theirs and go further!! -charley

When was the last time you saw an advertisement and actually believed you were seeing the unvarnished truth...?

The Sham-WOW!? The Franklin Mint?

Get real, guys... You KNOW those M&M's aren't REALLY frightened to see Santa, don't you..?

I expect you are going to piss and moan when you find out that the current James Bond doesn't do all his own stunts Or maybe some of you think it's a documentary?!

Here's food for thought. If you actually DID hear the naked unvarnished arranger play (by a naked, unvarnished arranger player!) for any modern arranger, you would ALL assume that's the best it can sound. At least here, in the factory demos, you get to hear what it would sound like if you had great programming chops, great playing skills, and a really good set of ears...

Personally, I don't WANT to hear what is the most average the damn thing can sound (that's Dom's marketing strategy ). I want to hear what's the BEST it can sound. Then, it's up to ME to match it. Or even beat it. But I'm not going to buy something that sounds humdrum on the off chance I MIGHT be able to get it to sound MUCH better. I want that PROVED up front.

You want to hear what's the most average it can sound? That's up to us here, and various user demos on the web!

Hi Diki

I agree, manufactures should show off their boards the best they can, I just wish someone could convince Wersi to do the same, (Unfortunately I don’t think anyone has managed to get blood out of a stone yet) so that you didn’t need to go and try one just to see how brilliant sounding and flexible the OAS system actually is.

Regards

Bill

Bill,
YES...If Wesi would promote AND support their products here in the US like they do other places in the world...they wouls sell a lot more of them here.

Lee

OTOH, Bill, to be honest, although Baartman and Volkcen are great players, it's fairly easy to find Yamaha user demos that come close to the factory ones. So it's fairly easy to assume that, in OUR hands, it's going to sound pretty good, and there is not an insurmountable hill to climb to match the demos.

But when most of what you hear is humdrum at best from real users, and there ISN'T a great factory demo (using factory sounds), that's a warning flag IMO...

Wersi and Lionstracs need to do a better job at persuading potential buyers that the things CAN sound great OOTB. Because none of their users have done anything to persuade me, that's for sure... You see, that's the most worrying thing about the whole 'soft' arranger concept. 'Closed' arranger users have no trouble or reticence posting stuff that at least usually comes CLOSE to the factory ROM demos. But mysteriously, nothing of any impact has appeared for MS or Wersi that impresses me in the slightest from it's actual users. Are they ALL terrible musicians? Are they all terminally shy?

Or is it more likely that not one of them can make something at a professional level, either due to the problems with the arranger or it's sounds and styles? If Joe Six-pack has no problem posting a T3 demo (and making it sound good), what is the impediment to the MS or Abacus user?

I'm afraid I'm a sceptic. If you can't make a Wersi demo that impresses me on the web, I guarantee I will be no more impressed to hear it live.

I've had a few Yamahas in my day and from my experiance they never sound good right out of the box. There have been many discussions on how to "make the drums come alive" by applying the proper eq. The Tyros I had needed many adjustments. OTS voices were drowned out by too much arranger, drums too soft and so on. To me it seemed like it needed a lot of balancing and it was rushed to market too fast.

In Yamaha's defence, they give you the tools needed to make it sound good, you just need to use them.

Tom

"I expect you are going to piss and moan when you find out that the current James Bond doesn't do all his own stunts........"

I read something last week about male movie stars that do nude scenes, but have stunt doubles do the actual nudity................good golly! Tell me it ain't so ma...............-charley

If everyone loves the tweeked demo sounds made by rep's from Yamaha, shouldn't Yamaha just use them, rather than the default out of the box sounds?




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Larry
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