Man.., have any of you guys/gals noticed how many B-Stock (blemished) and Factory Resealed keyboards these online sites are pushing..???? You see all these keyboard specials showing up on the sites, but often you'd expect to see something such as an actual sale on a new item.., to find these sale items are all B-Stock and Resealed merchandise.

What's more alarming is how so much of the NEW just released keyboards show up on the sites as blemished or resealed. I could swear I've seen several B-stock/Resealed Roland GW-8's and even Juno Stage's (geez that bloody Stage is still an infant).

It's alarming the number of people out there who buy a keyboard (just to try it out) and return it within 45 days (wow freaking 45 days to bang on that thing and make a decision-apparantly it takes 45 days for the average person to do this now). A lot can happen to a keyboard that has been banged on for 30 days or more.., even a week or a few days.

Then people are buying these things (just for one time use) and returning them for a refund! I had it out with someone about 2 weeks ago. The a-hole (sorry for the word, but what he did makes him one). He wanted a good synth for a project he and few others were working on, but didn't have any intention of keeping it. So he ponies up his credit card and buys a Korg M3. His plan was to use it for 2 weeks.., to get what he needed out of it and then return it! His plan was also NOT to open any manual packages or included software. He was going to download the manual from Korg's site for reference. THAT'S MESSED UP!

You gotta watch too because if some of the keyboards bought and returned appear to have no signs of wear.., all documents still mint and crisp, and have not been registered.., the retailer will turn around reseal the box and sell it as new (even though someone had banged out on it).

Some retailers actually sell new stock advertised as B stock. It's a way of selling new stock at a discount at the same time a way of keeping the manufacturers off their backs.

That has been a long time abuse...I am in favor of no returns for this reason...Since I have a background as a music retailer..I know first hand the 30 day, and 45 day returns are a big disaster...and folks complain about a restocking fee...it is seldom recovered by the retailer..Smart stores say NO to returns...

Do your homework first..then buy.....How many people return their automobiles......???

If I buy something..I will resale it...not make me a fool in another dealers eyes, by returning it....

Yeah it's been a long time abuse Fran, but lately you sure do see a lot of B-Stock and Factory Sealed merchandise for sale. Makes you wonder if the retailers are now using these items to push their sales up considering that due to the times someone may be more inclined to save a few bucks on a B-Stock or Resealed item who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford the item priced as new.

Hi,

Its not just keyboards with this issue.

I just purchased an Ovation idea guitar and had to return it for another because of severe cosmetic blemishes. I was shocked to see one like this out of the box! The second one had issues also but I kept it. Not the quality I remember from this company.

Manufactured in CHINA or KOREA as most musical instruments are these days. I do not think the companies check what is being shipped to customers often enough.

Maybe it is NOT so much people returning them for no good reason but people returning them because they truely are flawed?

I had to return my MZ2000 3 times before I got one that was not broken. Then I sold it LOL!

I never returned an instrument for a refund.

-Linda

I was tuning a Piano at Donald Trump’s Florida home Mar Largo. It was a large black grand which a customers had left at a piano store on consignment, she did not know the store was renting the piano and did not receive any of the rental.
Pure profit, the customer paid for the moving and rental –100% profit for the store.

John C.

You've all quite happily benefited from online discounts for a while now... But now you are beginning to see the Dark Side. Now that online retailers have all but shut down brick and mortar store, and many of them refuse to carry TOTL and even MOTL arrangers, as being far too 'niche' a market, the ONLY way you can even try things like PA2Xpro's and E60's etc. is to actually buy them, then return them and pay your restocking fee as a 'demo fee'.

So it is hardly surprising to see lots of opened and B-stock items available...

Support your local store, quit using online retailers to save yourself just a few bucks, and perhaps things will change for the better. Otherwise, better get used to this..

Actually, some dealers sell brand new items as used to make it easier to sell. Right out of the words of a Gibson guitar rep.

I was also aware of piano dealers taking a brand new piano and damaging the case by hitting it with a chain as an excuse to discout it!

[This message has been edited by Scott Langholff (edited 11-28-2008).]

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2008448574_shop290.html


If you must, Online is definity the way to shop today regardless...

After dealing with Rondo music for three days trying to place an order, and being told that they simply will not take a phone order, I'm only going to buy on-line if I absolutely have to. Rondo has unique things, like a reasonably priced case for a flying V, a hardshell case for a double-neck guitar, a neat little lap steel with a stand. But, the hoops these idiots have you jump through is not acceptable. They get my vote as the worst retailer I've ever dealt with.

I've had terrible experiences with Rondo, Overstock.com and Amazon.com. Looks like it's follow their rules, fill in all the blanks perfectly and then hold onto your ass.

Makes me appreciate Frank and George much more.


R.

Sorry to hear that Russ....

Aside from the great service from dealers here on the SZ like Frank, AJ, Dan O, George...I have also have had very good luck with Sweetwater also for gear thru the years. But as you say the hard stuff narrows it down to a few.

Good Luck

ZZounds is the biggest offender. They are always listing their B-Stock prices on Google searches as if they were MAP.

That said I buy outlet notebooks from Dell. Why? becasue they are gone over twice. Once in Mayalsia and again in the US when they are returned. I have never received a bad Notebook from Dell( We have three of them)

Our Store is on two levels, we have 400 guitars displayed, 9 Grand pianos and a host of uprights, and all the Clavinovas a PA/light Room, Band instruments,7 displayed Drumsets and a few electric kits, 200 SF of Sheet Music, A pretty large store in a Mall........and we will not carry any Pro keyboards. We have Roland,Korg, Yamaha and do not carry the Motif,Fantom,or M3 becasue the player's who buy them are looking to demo them in store then buy them on the Internet to save the tax, get better prices and take advantage of the generous return policies. The nearest place to demo those board is 120 miles away at a Guitar Center.

Guitar players are more inclined to buy what they have in their hands, especially the high end.

We compete with prices and can beat Internet prices but the savvy musicians know they can call any place and get a better than MAP price on practically anything. I don;t blame them, but we cannot floor something we won't sell and would rather put something in it's place that will. Home Arrangers sell off the floor becasue the people who buy them need hands on support which I offer free in the store anytime they want and as much as they want free.

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 11-30-2008).]

He is just using the store's policy. Can't blame him. He is not doing anything worong or unethical. The store has a policy and they know people will do this. Costco built a fortune on unlimited return policy, but recently changed the electronics policy to a generous 90days and 2 year warranty. I returned an 18 month old plasma and they accepted it. I bought a new one and even saved $500. Paid for my membership for 5 years! LOL

Blemished goods can be a good deal. A few scratches won't hurt, Hell I'd buy a new scratch and dent Taylor 900 or Strat for a little over cost any day of the week if I could not get them already.

The problem is you cannot do your homework. Independents won;t carry merchandise that has been proven to be for "demo use only"

IM telling you Pro keyboard players will not pay $3000 for a workstation if they can save $210 tax PLUS buy it under MAP. We had a Motif for a year and had many demo player. Saw the same guys playing them in local bands. I told the owner to put more Arrangers in their place. WE get people asking us for Workstations all day long but I explain to them why we don;t carry them. They understand and are forced to use the generous return policies of the Internet stores which as a retailer I ENCOURAGE them to use. I could care less if it's a burden to Musicians's Friend. Its their policy not ours.

Actually, some dealers sell brand new items as used to make it easier to sell. Right out of the words of a Gibson guitar rep.



Thank God we don't have to do that to move gear. LOL

You would be surprised to know the big players are all over MAP policy's. The last thing they want is to lose independents, ASk Gibson. I heard they lost 90% if their independent dealers with their policies and requirements. We had them for 25 years and dropped the line when Henry took over and made demands we practically become a "Gibson Store". LOL We picked up PRS, the full Taylor line, Schecter and LTD which more made up for the loss of Gibson sales. Especially PRS. You don't have to "qualify" a PRS like one does a Les Paul. No one asks "which one" It doesn't matter its a PRS lol.
Its no wonder the Gibson rep mentioned above is whispering B-Stock as new at some retailers. LOL.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 11-30-2008).]

What bothers me in the big chain music stores is that they hardly carry any mid to top arrangers anymore. Most places I have been to look at us older adults & tend to ignore us as if we dont know what we're doing. Or when asked about a product they just shrug their shoulders in bewilderment & say "What's That"? Most look like their on drugs also, what happened to a shirt & tie? It's a shame what has happened to music stores in the last 20 years from the help through management. You can't blame the customers for shopping on the Internet at much better prices. With so many unknowledgeable employees in stores you sought of have to be your own salesman in the know. And after you buy if you need help the Internet again can deliver it with forums like this and such. So its a no brainer as to why there is a downward slide & probably in years to come the demise of retail music stores as we knew them. It's sad.

You are going to the wrong stores. We don;t dress in ties but we are all over 40 and specialize in every aspect. Professional players in every area of expertise. We don;t work on commission so I have no qualms calling the bass player to sell a bass, no does he have issues calling on me to sell recording or keyboard gear that needs more than a rudimentary knowledge.

Thats said,,,,,,Believe it or not Keyboard Arrangers are primarily sold to Joe Six Pack by a HUGE margin. the HOME user. Joe is impressed with making a full band out of two fingers. Joe has no clue how to operate a keyboard with so many buttons and screens. Joe needs A LOT of support and local stores are in a much better position to offer that. I will spend hours with Joe on a Clavinova or PSR700. That's the difference. Joe won;t even know what a keyboard arranger is on the Internet. Joe buys what he see's demoed in the store and KNOWS he will be coming back with questions.
Joe has no problem laying out $400-$7000 for a Home Arranger Keyboard once he SEES and HEARS them.

Few Arranger sales are made to Pro OMB players when compared to the whole. The buyers of these things would be harraging the poor sales guy at Musicians Friend for "lessons on the use of a PSR or PA800"



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 11-30-2008).]

Kingfrog,

You may be the exception at your store but the majority of these large retail music stores have little or any support or even knowledge of arrangers at all. All you ever hear is "Well sir we dont carry those but I can order it for you". Most of my player friends buy at home organ stores at the malls, pay exuberant prices & get free life time lessons & but they re happy campers to at least learn how to play.

The store I work at used to be one of those home organ/Piano stores. The owner had the vision to become a full MI retailer as organ sales died,But stayed in the Malls. You would be surprised at how much is sold to out of town visitors in a Mall Store, People a routinely shocked to see a two level Music store in a Mall. The Mall is high rent but you spend next to zero on advertising. Don;t have to. Everyone in town and out of town already knows you are there. We don't have to sell at higher prices and everything including the Pianos are priced at MAP. OF course you have to take every advantage of discounts including paying for all incoming stock within 30 days for an extra 2 or 3 points and don't pay interest or floor ANYTHING not paid for. Even on Pianos where you don't usually find transparency, we price them at MAP.

Clavinovas and Arrangers are the new Home organs. They are so good they have cut into piano sales as well. Uprights are dead, baby Grands are still decent sellers. MI is still doing well. Even in recessionary times people still look to home entertainment.

Donny, I agree that Sweetwater is pretty good. The kid I deal with is responsive and pretty knowledgeable. The practice of assigning an associate to each customer is really helpful. Recently, I got a jazz guitar with A finish flaw. When I told the guy, they offered me a $100.00 credit without even seeing a photo of the flaw, which I offered to send.

Same thing at Sam Ashe. A nice young woman, who also knows her stuff, is my consultant. When I wanted a Parker acoustic, she looked at the stock they had and called me back to answer questions. Naturally, she earned my business.

I'll order from places like Musicians Friend only if they are the only ones stocking what I need. Guitar Center is a joke.

And Rondo music is the worst I've ever dealt with-hands down.

R.

Capt.. if GuitarCenter is a joke.., then naturally MusiciansFriend's service will be just as crappy Aren't they really one in the same...???

[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-01-2008).]

Yes they are, Squeak. I was making a "brick and mortar" vs internet distinction. There are "real people" on site at Guitar Center, but I haven't found many who know anything. At least you can put your hands onm some of the equipment.

Both are bottom end suppliers.


R.

I've sworn off MusiciansFriend.., and had a good laugh at the employees at GuitarCenter