I did my Xmas party today at 5 pm for Ms. X like I’ve done every year now. She has a Steinway piano. I did my Xmas sing-a-long, but while playing I noticed something. I was hardly making any mistakes. The keyboard on that Steinway made the difference. Easy action…light as a feather, yet the feeling of a solid key under your finger tips. Your finger feels like it’s going into a groove…dead center into the middle of each key. What a delight to play. I could have played it all night and not got fatigued!

I compare that with my home piano. The keys are glossy and slippery, they feel rounded, a very heavy action that tends to wear you out, very difficult to do dynamics with. So bad that I never feel I have control of the keyboard.

That is part of the answer to good playing that I always forget to remember. The keyboard. As I look back at playing the G-70 in the store, I remember that’s the first thing that impressed me. I remember commenting to the salesperson how much better I was playing on the G-70.

I think if I spring for another keyboard now, it’s going to have to have the right “feel” or I’m not going to enjoy playing it no matter HOW it sounds.

BTW…the reason I keep my “difficult” piano is because of a lesson I learned many years ago when I was studying to be a pool hustler! There was one pool table in the middle of many that had very “tight” pockets. Most of the guys wouldn’t play on this table. I had enough sense to realize if I can master this table, then any other table would be a cakewalk. And they were...all cakewalks after that. Same with my piano. It keeps me on my toes navigating this keyboard, so that when I play a different one on the job, my fingers just flow!

Lucky

I'm only an amateur, not even play piano, but this is very similiar to what I
feel when play the Ketron SD1 and the G-70.
Korg PA1X/PA2X Pro probably have the same keyboard/keybed quality too, maybe
this is "top line" 76 keys arrangerkeyboard standard?
Top line of Technics KN's also have very good 61 keys, but even so, it did'nt
give me the same comfortable keyfeel as when I play the SD1 or G-70.

Anyway, I've seen/heard talented musicians play amazingly well at "cheep click
clack" keyboard toys. In fact, as well that I'll never ever can copy whatever
keys or keybeds the manufacturers gave me.

Happy Playing
GJ

I only really enjoy playing solo piano on an 88 note weighted hammer action keyboard...I use a Yamaha P85, soon to be replaced by a new Yamaha KX8 controller.

Having said that, and with piano being only one of the many sounds I use on an arranger, the action just needs to be velocity sensitive and no more than 5 octaves.

I dislike semi-weighted actions (especially with aftertouch) such as found on the G70 or Tyros.

The light quick action of the PSR-S900 is ideal for my purposes, as most of my gigs involve arranger play....velocity sensitivity is perfect, going from no sound when pressed very slowly, to max when struck quickly....just like a piano, actually.

Key action is a very personal thing...if it doesn't feel right, then it is sure to affect the time you spend playing, as well as how you play.

Ian

Personally....key feel makes all the difference in the world...I can never understand how folks make this a compromise..

Key feel has always been a "big deal" to me...Going back to my accordion days..keys on an accordion had to be quality for me..even at the age of 13..

Unlike Ian..semi weighted keys are the only way for me....nothing makes a great sound un-enjoyable like a bad keypad.....Thus I will never play a Yamaha PSR board..and for that matter the low end feel keyboards from Roland too..

The slightly undersized keys also is a no no to me (Yamaha again)...

I do not see any need to sacrifice or compromise when it comes to keys...there are many better choices..as mentioned the Korg, Roland, Ketron top models...and add in that group the MediaStation..


If it feels like junk....it sounds like junk...to me..

Years ago Uncle Dave and I always said the feel made the sound more playable....of course in his old age..he is making compromises now..

I agree with Fran on the PSR's. I bought a 3000 as a back up board for my tyros 1 and I just couldn't get used to the smaller keys...

I eventually moved that and added a t2 so life is pretty good...

What's also odd if I'm double a long string of doubles or something then sit down at an acoustic piano, my hands wonder what the hell has happened, lol...

Take a song or two to get in the swing of things...



------------------
Bill in Dayton

Exactly, Fran...and that's what semi-weighted action is to me...a compromise.

The feel of the G70 and Tyros are far too wimpy for actual piano playing...plus there aren't enough keys.

You obviously don't play much piano or you wouldn't compromise your chops on a semi-weighted action.

Semi-weighted keys, by their very nature, are a compromise between synth action and piano action.

So actually, you are compromising.

Ian

Ian..I respectfully disagree...how is that for holiday spirit..

Semi weighted is not a compromise...it is a design...meaning better resistance and a more solid feel...fully weighted..originally was a term for counter balanced weights..

Also i would not put the G70 key-bed and the Tyros key-beds in the same category...the Tyros is still undersized and a less desirable feel to me...Korg PA1x and MediaStation do share the same stage in key feel...

As for 88 keys..I am not sure I ever touched the top half octave or lower half octave..other than glissando's...

Ian even your P 85 is a semi weighted key bed...no matter how Yamaha describes it "graded action"...It also suffers from under size keys....although a better key feel than the lower model N-30...

Also after touch is not noticeable unless you want it to do a function on the G70...Me..I want it ..when I need it...

Here is another suggestion for "piano players" get out and try the new Roland "ivory" key-beds...It is as close as you can get ...to a real piano (acoustic)..

The competition lags behind in this department...As an "old" accordion player..semi weighted lights my fire...

Another side note...As we all remembered the Yamaha DX-7 was the ideal keyboard to play..quality key-bed.....In today's world after playing my G70 ..even the E-60....The DX-7 is the same less desirable feel of the Tyros2....

I will still save my mint DX-7 with E....so my great great grandchildren can sell it ( along with my Roland cubes)..down the road...but...play it...NOT!!!

I'm glad you see it that way Fran, not much point arguing with me unless you're a good loser.

Semi-weighted action is truly a compromise...whether by design or not, between synth and weighted...I figured a pro like you would be acutely aware of this fact.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 12-26-2008).]

Lucky..,

I understand what you mean man! Once you put your hands on the keybed of a Steinway you'll never forget it. Stein's are by far my most favorite acoustic piano to play on (not just because of the sound), but the key action is just butter.

Nothing beats the feel of "truely graded and weighted" keybed for piano playing. Some of these newer lines of digitals are getting pretty darn close, but many I've played have been on the heavy side too. I'm really wanting to get my hand on the new Fantom G8. That keybed is getting amazing reviews....

I still think that Ensoniq is unsurpassed when it comes to semi-weighted synth action. It's always a joy to play a VFX or TS series board.
I have to admit that I used to practice and play much longer on My VA-76 than on the PA800 now. It's gotta be the keybed!

key feel is another "personal choice"....
I happen to love the light touch on the S900..lightning fast keys great sound. Works for me & not ashamed to tell anyone. What ever key-bed you use is no substitute for your playing ability make no mistake of that for sure....it still comes down to what "YOU" sound like when you put your whole package together...simple as that!

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-27-2008).]

Sorry Squeak and Lucky, although the Steinway piano is of very high quality and most piano players love it, it is not know for it’s easy action. The piano players who are accomplished players love the resistance it give them room for expression. Yamaha yes softer. Baldwin close and Bosendorfer are not as resistant as the Steinway.

I base my opinion the Steinway grand in my home and the many I have tuned.

Piano Technician
John C.

Nothing beats Hammond's keybeds, IMO - something Hammond Suzuki have continued to get so right. Coming off any of the current crop of Hammonds and getting on to any of the current crop of arrangers really does the latter no favours in comparison.

Ummm, strange comparison. I wouldn't compare an organ's keyfeel to that of a piano; I think a proper comparison for Hammonds would be other Hammond clones (Nord, Korg BX3, etc.). Different objective for different playing techniques (waterfall keys for 'smears', 'expression', velocity,etc. not derived from keystrike). JMO. Whatever turns you on.

chas

I wasn't.

Here is another critical point....Most folks using these light feel keyboards do not rely or want keyboard dynamics...a must for me..
They...including Donny... ...want a wide open sound at the touch...mostly organ or brass sounds...(another hint..they won't use a hold pedal either.. )
I believe Donny even sets his velocity touch at the level setting that almost nulifies dynamics...

A solid full size semi weighted keyboard aids in expressive playing...such as guitar, piano, and actually any sound this side of the organ..

Keep those PSR keys ..I want a man's key-bed...

Do you think it will help?

It already has

That's not how I heard it...I heard that when you began to play, Ikutaro Kakehashi(Mr. Roland!)himself came down and rubbed the name off the arranger...

Go play with your toys..


[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 12-27-2008).]

Well your wrong on the velocity & pedal counts .....but again, the proof is in the pudding.....what it "sounds like" in the end result & what people hear is what counts be it heavy weight which I hate....
or lightweight fast action keys who cares the talent is "in you always" so someone thinks they have the greatest key-feel but then someone sound like crap because they are not good players wheres the logic in that?...lets add in the old 61 vs 76 key arguments too that's always good for a pissin' contest..
This discussion again must be backed up with SOUND DEMOS by the participants or its just here say & personal choice as usual...sorry. Or maybe listen to the great Tyros demos & S900 demos with their lightweight keybeds demos I dont hear a problem with the sonic realism do you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImsxV32ii8U

http://www.music-tyros.com/en/movies/index.html
http://www.music-tyros.com/en/playing/index.html
http://www.music-tyros.com/en/playing/index2.html

Sorry..but after listening again to these demos...It re affirmed my belief that a better key-bed will serve better dynamics...None of the PSR or Tyros3 demos showed this in a favorable light..After listening to the Tyros3 Concert piano..I revisited the Chris Halon G70 piano demo{new tone video)...You tell me you don't hear a dynamic difference?

And in part it has to be the quality of a key bed..
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=656&ParentId=18


Go to videos and select New Tones video..


[This message has been edited by Fran Carango (edited 12-27-2008).]

Well that's ONE opinion & is your right...
for me it's Yamaha.....next guy might love Korg.....so where is this all going now?

That's not a bad piano sound Fran, although it isn't to every one's taste, being a tad too tubby and thick (like the alliteration? )especially for us Yamaha players.

Just think how much more responsive to dynamics the G70's piano would be with an 88 note weighted hammer action instead of the wimpy semi-weighted keybed...may as well save some money (and weight) and go with an even wimpier non-weighted action for all the good this one does for realistic piano feel.

But, you seem to like it, and it works for you, so who am I to argue with someone who clings so doggedly to their arranger of choice?

Like me, and my PSR-S900, you have found your Holy Grail arranger, and that's a good thing, and you trying to convince me to change to your choice would be every bit as useless as me trying to change you over to mine, so let's not waste each other's time.

Keep your stick on the ice, and if women don't find you handsome, at least let them find you handy.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 12-28-2008).]

It's kind of strange to see someone happy with the S900 action dare to call the G70 action 'wimpy'! What would you use to describe the S900 action in that case? What IS the word for WAY wimpier than 'wimpy'?

The whole point of an arranger's action, even anything's, IMO, other than something that is ONLY used for piano sounds, is versatility. Not TOO light to play piano on successfully, not so heavy that organ and other fast sounds are impeded.

IMO, the PSR series excels for ultra light sound operation, although I would prefer a more rounded key shape to facilitate organ smears, and also a heavier construction to easily absorb such abuse (I have no doubt that my personal touch would break something on a PSR ), but it is SO bad for piano that you can easily hear the unspoken admission by it's users...

They would rather buy an 88 than use that action for serious piano use.

Trouble is, that kind of defeats the whole idea of an arranger... one keyboard to do it all. If, OTOH, you are looking for a multi keyboard rig, I'm sorry, but the PSR action STILL fails, IMO. There are FAR better fast actions, there are MUCH better waterfall actions for organ, and there are great 76 and 88 wooden weighted actions to chose from.

Neither fish nor fowl, and yet it's users have the nerve to call a G70's action 'wimpy'! The PSR series is so far beyond 'wimpy', words fail me! But if you have myasthenia gravis, perhaps it's the one for you!

You may indeed argue against the G70 being the best all-round arranger, but knocking the action almost universally praised by most, even by those who don't like the arranger itself , is a stretch at best.

If you need to play piano AND organ from the same keyboard, and do both to the best that can be achieved, given that a compromise between these extremes of actions is obligatory, you can do no better than the G70's action...

Been there, done that.

Again its personal taste & comfort level...sorry.

Indeed, Donny... But don't forget, you gushed about the G70 action while you had one. Just as you gush about everything (and put down everything else) while you have it.

And you will bash whatever you love now, as soon as you change. So when your personal taste and comfort level changes so constantly, what value is that pronouncement?

Diki...

I call em as I use em...plain & simple......
I have no loyalty...I have real world usability for NOW or as long as it suits my taste nothing more...even so it's still MY COMFORT LEVEL & OPINION nothing more......
right now the S900 is the "bees knees" revisited for me 2nd time around 40 gigs this month and still riding strong....great little ax...sorry if I seem excited but My EAGLES just made the playoffs crushing the Cowboys

Crushing is too kind a word for that spanking, Donny...

Anyone notice my Drew Brees missing Dan Marino's single season passing record by a mere 16 yards because the damn defense couldn't stop the Panthers from marching down the field and chewing up the clock at the end (and beating us after a 21 point comeback to boot!)...?

Sad, sad, sad... But congrats to Drew for being only the second 5000 yard+ passer in NFL history

Go Saints.... (in 2009!)

Donny, it's not that you don't have the experience or anything like that, it's just that you seem unable to discuss an arranger without it ALL being good. Just because you have an S900 NOW, doesn't mean that, were you to think about it, you might decide that perhaps the G70 had the better action. Or the T2. Or the SD-1. Or the PA800....

With all your experience having gone through so many different arrangers recently, surely you are in the BEST position to compare different aspects of arranger operation and build. But you seem to always throw away that hard-earned knowledge with an uncritical love of whatever you currently have. Rather than just the usual gushing, I'd be a LOT more interested in a hard critical look at ALL your recent purchases, with a view to what has the best styles, which the best sounds, which the best OS, the best build quality, the best action, etc., etc..

Trying to convince us that it is ALL the PSR S900, after it was ALL the PA800, after it was ALL the E60, after it was ALL the T2 (ad nauseam) just doesn't do your experience justice. SURELY you can come to some sort of comparative analysis that transends what you are currently playing...?

If you could build the perfect Frankenstein's monster arranger out of what you have gone through in the last three years' odyssey, what would it be?

PLEASE don't duck the question with "all S900" because then I'm going to have to do a forum search for quotes from you where you slammed the S900 during your adventures with other arrangers! I KNOW that there is no ONE perfect arranger (and you have ably demonstrated you feel the same!), so just this once, could you try to remain objective and give this a serious think?

I'm honestly interested in how you would put this monster arranger together...

No need to apologize, my friend.

We both know the G70's action feels no more like a piano than a hockey stick looks like a baseball bat.

And yes, I think it's wimpy...all semi-weighted and non-weighted actions feel that way to me.

I know they are a necessary evil for arrangers....but I detest playing solo piano on them.

That's why I carry my new Yamaha KX8 with me...it's light and compact like the S900 so it's not a problem, and well worth it when I can be playing piano on something that actually feels like one.

I know you like to carry only one keyboard, but that's your decision...there are many of us here who sometimes like to use two, for different reasons perhaps, but two nevertheless.

Keep your stick on the ice, and Happy New Year.

Ian



[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 12-28-2008).]

sorry...double post.

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 12-28-2008).]

Diki......I know I sound very confusing when I describe my experiences on the arrangers I buy, play, & perform with on stage & also sell off when done with after experimentation. Like a new girfriend its exciting for a few weeks then things start to change
The fact is that there are all kinds of good ones for "DIFFERENT USES"....and when I say that I mean......for example ....I loved the G70 heavy duty key-bed, touch screen, quality build, most sounds not all families.. & makeup tools, cover tools etc,...& would have been a great studio piece but to lug it around day & night, some sounds that I wasn't happy with like the Brass & no onboard speakers for those tiny gigs personal in your face monitors was the downfall & ultimatly the straw that broke the camels back.But at home in studio it would work very well to a point.
Korg left me wanting more & more styles, the OS is frustrating at best with its folder system and such. There were many really nice features but for my needs they weren't the right ones for my performing qualifications.
All my Ketron experiences were mostly good to a point & definitly had its strengths in sound & style departments, OS once learned is very practical in the way it utilizes a hard drive, key-bed was nice also but it took many hours to set it up to my live playing on stage standards & even then it was a wrestling match controlling all parameters together.
All my Yamaha units is & has been the best over all are just simply the "easiest" & most workable sounds & styles in a nice tight great sounding package in all aspects of operating available for MY needs in my EVERYDAY life performing & traveling all over. Tyros line is just as good I enjoyed them but in the end the on-board speakers make the difference in very small gig situation & with the Full Bore sound reinforcement PA for my huge audiences it sounds awesome. The light weight is a breeze to transport, the light key-bed isn't the best but its just enough for me to expressively do what I have too.
There is way to many things to keep adding on with these units in one post....but I would gladly discuss anything regarding features and how I feel about them in detail if needed. For now it's the S900........it's doing the job admirably under pressure & guess all in all when its said and done its the one for my needs.
I hope down the road they improve it a bit with new models & added feature improvements as with all manufacturers products.

ciao




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-28-2008).]

E60 was close to teh G70 in many ways read above...a bit lighter but I didn't need 76 keys, although many fine ones the lack of good "goto" sounds that I needed, no break button, no part EQ, no color display, no mic input, eventually became a gig burden for my needs. Its a very nice Arranger for the right player it just didn't fit my needs as a very busy on the go singer/player.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bruno123:
Sorry Squeak and Lucky, although the Steinway piano is of very high quality and most piano players love it, it is not know for it’s easy action. The piano players who are accomplished players love the resistance it give them room for expression. Yamaha yes softer. Baldwin close and Bosendorfer are not as resistant as the Steinway.

I base my opinion the Steinway grand in my home and the many I have tuned.

Piano Technician
John C.

[/QUOTE

John,

If a Steinway is “not known for its easy action,” then IMO it should be.

I had said:

“Easy action…light as a feather, yet the feeling of a solid key under your finger tips. Your finger feels like it’s going into a groove…dead center into the middle of each key. What a delight to play. I could have played it all night and not got fatigued.”

I should have prefaced that with something like: The dozen or so Steinway pianos I’ve had the pleasure of playing give me a feeling of……easy action, etc.

Yes, I’ve heard of pianists who fly their pianos around the world with them when they go on tour and they’re not all Steinway’s. Everyone has their preference.

My preference right now, if I could afford one, would be a……Steinway! Especially since I’ve spent the last two weeks shopping for a new piano and trying many different brands and models. I also like the action and sound of the Yamaha U1 and their grands and baby grands. Two different animals (Steinway and Yamaha)…I wish I could have them both.

I didn’t realize there were so many piano makers out there especially considering these rough economic times and the fact that many don’t really care to take the time to learn an instrument properly. I’ve learned a lot about the mechanics of a piano from the different salesmen, but after the dust settles, I really don’t care what a Steinway action is all about and who doesn’t like the action. I like it and that’s what matters to me.

I appreciated your input here though. I've always had respect for you piano technicians. You guys probably get the least credit for what you do. It’s the players that take the limelight. It’s like owning a Ferrari. The owner gets to show it off, but who produces that delicious hum you hear from the engine? The mechanics, of course. In the piano world, if not for you folks, where would us players be? Good playing is not just about making music. It’s also about owning an exceptional instrument and having folks like you available to keep it fine tuned and maintained!

Lucky