I wanted to share some thoughts with you guys regarding the issue we bring up from time to time regarding arrangers and the lack of "modern styles" more specifically in the electronica department.

Personally I would love to see these arranger have a more modern set of styles. However..., when you look at it realistically I think it's safe to say we're not going to get them.., and here's why I feel this way about it.

The only way arranger makers can do this (logically) is by doing what Yamaha did years ago. Years back Yamaha released a low budget arranger keyboard called the DJX (I'm talking about the original blue baby.., and not that gawd awful DJXII). Those of you who may not remember the original DJX.., this was an arranger keyboard made SOLEY for electronica. This arranger was choc full of up to date modern styles in dance, trance, hip hop, rap, drums-n-bass, ect. Not only were these styles modern and up to date, but the DJX had a voice set unlike any other Yamaha arranger of the time. It was also loaded with drum kits that were specific to these styles of music and these kits weren't found on other Yamaha arrangers. There were also numerous other one shot samples such as vocal hits and stabs included in the soundset too.., that later found their way into other Yamaha models.

Some of you may not realize it.., but over the years (being a former DJX owner myself).., I can tell you that there were quite a few styles on upper, mid, and lower Yamaha arrangers (that were released well after the original DJX) that had their modern styles taken from the original DJX. Even my old Yamaha PSR-550 had a few DJX styles.

The DJX also had real time control knobs and other features that gave the player a DJ type control over the mix..., such as direct part muting of style parts (where a section of the keys became controllers for this). The DJX also had (although limited) a sampler.., it even had a ribbon controller that has assignable settings. There was even a dedicated (groove knob) that changed "swing" in real time along with other controllers..., not to mention this was also a big seller for Yamaha.., but they killed the line with the second generation model.

Anyways..., when you look at it today "realistically" keyboard companies cannot produce these more recent arrangers with modern styles because the only logical way to do this would be to release a keyboard specific to the styles themselves (like the DJX).

Consider this too... It's much easier to create an arranger keyboard that 99.99 caters to the tradtional and classics. Why...???? Well simply because if you think about it.., 4 weeks from today (hell even 4 years from today) jazz, big band, swing, waltz, classic/traditional rock, funk, polka's, cumbas, rhumba's ect are still going to sound the same.

You look at these modern styles of music and ONE word stands out and that's MODERN. Hip Hop and Rap are styles that change by the the day and by the week. Arranger makers would have to constantly be updating these boards in order to keep them "up to date" with what's considered current. They would have to employ style creators who would have their hands full trying to keep up with the market.

So the makers have a choice of either releasing a board specific to these styles with a whole team releasing weekly or montly updates for the styles or just giving you a few basic one's that cover the generics. Money invested would also be an issue. So makers choose the least expensive route which is giving you some styles that cover the basics. They're not so bad that you find yourself doing the moonwalk or dancing like MC-Hammer, but they're not so great that JayZ and others would take an interest.

You also have to consider the "typical arranger player" and the targeted market for them.

Bottom line is this... if you want modern styles.., you're gonna have to make them yourself. If your keyboard has a sampler you'll have to make use of it and build your own kits. It's a lot of work to do this on any arranger....., which is clearly why the workstation sells 1000 times to 1 for these styles of music. They have the sound set, easier to use samplers, and onboard sequencers that are better designed for creating it.

Any other views on it from members here?

Exactly Squeak...this is the foundation of modern Hip Hop culture style music...arrangers have no place in it....there are so many other tools being used for this type of music plain & simple.
No surprises....you have to seek what tools work for your needs. You can't build a house with just hammer alone



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 12-29-2008).]

That's why I gave up on the arranger for this Donny some time ago I did create some more modern grooves on arrangers, but nothing like what I could do on my workstations. Plus (money wise) it's more expensive to buy an arranger for this! If you look at the price.., top end workstations are $1000 or more cheaper than top end arrangers. Hell you could buy the fully weighted 88 key Motif XS8 for less than a Tyros 3.....

My little ($179) Zoom StreetBoxx 246 even destroys every arranger out there in terms of modern sounds for these styles. I think at the least arranger makers could include some basic hip hop kit patches that will always have a place in the style. I know some of the arranger players would probably kill to have the (hand claps) on my little Zoom SB246.., and even a few of the bass drums.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 12-29-2008).]

I remember reading some raving reviews about the DJX in Keyboard magazine...

But you are right, I believe DJX sounds and styles were about the 90's, and would seem dated now, whereas any old polka on any arreanger would sound, well, like a polka.

The original DJX got amazing reviews. Yes.., by today's standards it would probably be a bit dated, but I can tell you (from being a former owner of the original DJX) even those styles (then) would still give every current arranger today a run for the money in terms of upbeat styles.

I remember reading pro mag reviews where they in the end had no idea where to even categorize the DJX because it was such a different beast compared to the average arranger.

The thing is, arrangers per se are NOT incapable of making contemporary musics. In fact, their capabilities for song construction completely outclass WS and loop tools, who offer little in the way of Intro/Variations/Fills/Endings structure... you just keep stringing loops together in a far more disconnected sense, IMO.

But unless the manufacturers show a willingness to pay for the creation of modern sounding styles, they are simply not going to land in the hands of younger players, who's need for polkas might be a little bit less than some of us here And without them being in the hands of younger players, what manufacturer looks FORWARD to a diminishing demand for a type of product?

Trouble is, of course, they have created this diminishing demand themselves, but probably can't admit it to themselves. But if anyone is responsible for the slipping of arranger sales, it has to be those who chose the ROM styles and sounds.

The DJX was an amazing product... and sold pretty well, from what I remember. You have to ask yourself what could possibly have gone on in some secret meeting to make them stop making successful follow-ups to it...

More profit for the WS division if making loop based music is made harder than the DJX made it, perhaps? Tough to get those high WS dollars when a cheap arranger could do it as well and simpler, no?

Maybe it's simpler to assume a whole conspiracy theory than admit PERHAPS it was simple incompetence by the Marketing Division...

Pre recorded Loops and Software synths are far more suited and (far more original capable) than Arranger Styles. I find even the vast library of Yamaha lacking for those who want to do Hip Hop Trace, Garage and the myriad of other modern MTV Grammy Award type loop style recordings. A PC loops and software synths along with an Akai beat box will go a lot farther and a lot longer in creating a host of original music in those genres.

I was pitching a PSR900 to a rapper and sold it based on the idea that he could use NON traditional loops like Schalgers/Big Band and world styles as a base. No one is doing that. Sometimes one needs to Take a risk and think outside the box.

Oh Lord! JUST what the world needs now... A schlager/hiphop wave Or bigband/rap

1. Arranger manufactures are keeping up with the times.

2. Most people that buy them are matured or retired. (Mainly due to the expense)

3. Is it a diminishing market?

3a. NO

4. Why is it not a diminishing market?

4a. People continually mature and retire.

5. Will today’s styles be available on arrangers?

5a. YES

6. When will these styles be available?

6a. when today’s youngsters mature and retire

And so the cycle continues

Regards

Bill

you are right to a degree bill. But the market is changing and and arranger keyboards are becomeing more contemporary. The eastern market is a prime example. The musicians there are sampling their own instruments and creating their own styles and beats. Thats where the growth market is and where the greatest developent for arrangers lie. Current arrangers can do almost everything to be contemporary music making machines but people are tunnel visioned and lack the creativity. But this will change. The gap betwen workstaions and arrangers is reducing