Interesting article on the PKO website
http://www.yamahapkowner.com/forum/index.php?topic=17337.0

Regards

Bill

If that is in fact true...then EVERYONE that 'plays in public' should sell their Tyros 3 (and maybe all the other Yamaha's too) and never buy one again!

If they really want these to be a home keyboard only...then we should ail out and get something else.

Steve, What is the real story here?

No body wants a law suit from Yamaha!

Lee

Hi

You are NOT allowed to extract the styles, sounds, operating system for commercial use.
These are the interlectual property of Yamaha.

Of course you can play the keyboard in public. It is what it is intended for.

Take it easy: Someone has got the copyright stuff mixed up!

Regards
Jørgen

------------------
The Unofficial YAMAHA Keyboard Resource Site

I would bet the Motif XS has the same wording in their manual and the Motif is used commercially buy mega acts and in shows and on CDs all over the world to a far greater extent than a T3 Arranger. The Motif has 6000 Arps that can be constructed into material for sale and performance for commercial use.

I am sure Yamaha is not going to go after someone who sells CD's at their sets or makes demos using styles present of the Yamaha. That would be like buying a loop disk for personal use only. IF the song is going to sell a million copies it would in all likelihood be rerecorded anyway.

I see it more like most on PK. They would rather someone does not reverse engineer their styles for use in competitor's products (which is being done far more then Hit songs are being sold using their styles)

The fact seems to be, money is being earned using these keyboards in performance and recordings and I have not heard of a single case of royalties being demanded for the use of keyboard sounds or arps. An arrangement is a fancy loop or Arp/

Much ado about nothing. If you really want to scare yourself ask your clients if they pay a blanket fee to ASACP, BMI and or SESAC. If they don't YOU are responsible to.
if you play music covered by them.

I have personal experience with SESAC as Neils moved his library to them for a very handsome upfront payment. SESAC became real aggressive and went after users. Legends got a nasty notice and Micky Gilley told me he dropped 'America' and 'Sweet Caroline' from his show in Branson after a
settlement". No one knew this. SESAC was a small player. He went on to removed a few seats from the theater because payment to ASCAP and BMI was based on seat count. Neil was the only artist who' music he was performing in his show that wasn't part of BMI or ASCAP Performance Organizations.

IF anyone is playing a wedding or in any public place that is not under a blanket contract with those organizations they are subject to lawsuit for non payment of performance royalties.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 12-30-2008).]

Here's the last reply from YPKO:
Hi,

I've been out of touch for the last few hours, but spoke with a very nice gentleman named Steve at Yamaha here in The States about the situation today. He was very kind and helpful. By the way, even with Christmas and Sunday, Yamaha got back with me within 72 hours. I was impressed.

Anyway, here's the scoop from Yamaha. The bottom line is that they don't want the native styles, multipads or distinctive voices, etc., of the T3 whether these are onboard, or purchased separately from Yamaha being exported, destributed freely or sold to others. Also, the same is true regarding copying or reverse engineering the technology from the T3.. Yamaha will agressively protect these things from being stolen, sold, exchanged, or given to others. Otherwise we are free to use our machines in any way we wish. As I said, Steve was very kind, helpful, and answered every question clearly, concisely, and to my satisfaction. I was very pleased.

Actually, I had my fears allayed, and hope to become a T3 owner soon.

Rob

Any more questions?

Steve

A follow up question or two, Steve...

Let's say you have a Yamaha product, and use it for commercial song production. Does using the Intro or Ending unaltered on say a jingle or commercial production infringe copyright? How much of the canned Intro would have to be changed for it NOT to be, (if it is)?

And secondly, once again you use a Yamaha product. You make a sequence using the styles, but then use another manufacturer's product to play back the sound (let's say you use a Roland product for it's piano) on a commercial work, but it's the Yamaha style that is driving it. Is this copyright infringement?

None of these issues arise in your kids' bedroom.

Yes, it is.

All Yamaha "preset" Styles on the Tyros3 are copyrighted. If you use a copyrighted Style for commercial purposes, let's say for instance selling a CD with Yamaha copyrighted material on it, that would be copyright infringement. If you, on the other hand, play a Tyros3 in a Night Club, etc., and use "preset" Yamaha styles during your performance - that would NOT be considered copyright infringement, as long as the intellectual property itself i.e. Styles, Multipads, SA2 Voices, etc. are NOT distributed, either freely to others (who personally themselves don't own a Tyros3) or sold - with the intention of personal gain or profit: either profit on your end or that of a 3rd party.

Happy New Year..

All the best,
Mike


[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 01-01-2009).]

Motif arpeggios are used all day long on commercial recordings. I hardly beleiev one could not use a Yamaha style in the making of a CD. Did Yamaha pay for the Whiter Shade of Pale Style? No they changed it slightly even though there is no question as to what it is. Yamaha doesn't want anyone to SELL their styles AS STYLES not as recorded music. A Whole lot of Motif users in Studios putting out hit records are in deep shyte if what you are saying is true. A Style is an organized LOOP as are the 6000 arps in the Motif.

No I cannot RESAMPLE the Yamaha and use it in another keyboard legally. But I can record and sell CDs all day long using native voices. I would be shocked to learn different.

Yamaha are trying to market these things as songwriter's tools... How can this be of any use towards making commercial recordings if you can't use the styles?

I don't think you have this quite right, Mike.... or at least I HOPE you don't have

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-01-2009).]

Yes I am with KF and Diki on this Mike.

As I have posted in other forums, you cannot copyright a chord progression as such. Just melody and lyrics.

As far as I know all styles are just chord progressions, with no melody to speak of.

Therefore no matter what device they were played on, or what purpose they were used for, they would not eb subject to copyright.

Dennis

If you read steve's post carefully...I think it answers all questions.

'in any way we wish' pretty well says it all.

Lee

I thought about that, But aren't Film Arrangements copyrighted? In either case I am sure I can record a Multi Platinum seller with the T3 and not worry about Yamaha suing...In fact I suspect I would get an endorsement deal.......ya think?

Film MUSIC is copyright, but the arrangement? There's a long history of taking hit music, or film scoring styles, and applying them to new music, and no-one gets sued...

You can't copyright a beat, or a way of voicing the strings, etc.. Only the music itself has protection, AFAIK.

Anyone remember when John Fogerty got sued for plagiarizing HIMSELF..??!! Some record company owned the old CCR back catalog, and sued him (I think it was for 'Old Man Down the Road', but not sure) for writing something similar to what he had already written!

You gotta love lawyers!

You are right if I IV V progressions and I VIm IIm V could only be used in one song each. 100,000 songs would have never hit the airwaves. 12 tones does not lend to a whole lot of originality.

You're kidding, right? That statement is so......weird, I can't believe it came from a musician. I'm sure you were just trying to make some kind of point......right?

chas

KF,

Film arrangements/scores usually have a melody/counter melody associated with the chord structure.

Therefore subject to copyright, BUT it is still only the melody that cannot be used. If you just took the underlying chord progressions there would be no infringement.

On pretty much all of the arranger patterns there is no melody to speak of. I woudl suspect that if stretched, the C. law COULD apply to those intros/endings that have a melody line included, but I would doubt whether it would stand up in the real world.

Dennis

I'm not a musician...Im a "mathematician". LOL
IN my opinion There isn't much original music being composed, at least I am not hearing any. Please send me a link to where I can be pleasantly surprised. And with the "theoretical rules" imposed the opportunities for palatable original music are even less. But then again people call RAP and repetitive loop based award winning music original. IN that regard I stand corrected.

A good indicator is the fact that 67 year old guys like Neil Diamond and the Rolling Stones are STILL seeling out hige Arenas....along with Hanna Montana of course and the orifinal material the American Idols produce.

When I was 20 their was NO act that could sell out a cross country tour in 30,000 seat arenas over 30 years old. Not even Elvis who was relegated to a showroom in Las Vegas for years. Today people like Jackson Brown are seeing the dearth of original music and a cry for the past and setting up tours!!

Frankie Avalon,Frankie Lane, the Andrew Sister and other mega acts were not touring even in the 60's any more. Today we have 60 years olds playing the same old song.

I stand by my comment. People have run out of exciting things to commercially do with 12 tones. PLEASE prove otherwise. People want to hear Margarita ville and Sweet Caroline STILL...

Thanks that clears things up. I have always thought only Melody and Lyric can be protected (and apparently titles in Japan)

I believe the odds of anyone on this forum being sued for copyright infringement for using a style file to create a song, is equal to being struck by lightning at the stroke of midnight next NYE in Time Square, NY.

Happy New Year,

Gary

Arrangers are quite often used for local commercial jingles, if not for hit songs. It would sure help to KNOW (from someone who actually IS an attorney, not plays one in their own minds ) whether the factory Intros and Endings are copyright free or not...

I do live in the lightning capitol of the USA...!