I completely agree... it's ALL subjective. But at least, just this ONCE, all the discussed sounds actually are available for comparison on identical files. Rather than piss and moan about pissing and moaning , the members here FINALLY have an opportunity to actually hear for themselves every single piano discussed. Whereupon they could return and add their voice to the discussion with a little bit more than conjecture (which half the postings seem to be!).

There's NOTHING wrong with opinion... it might lead to a consensus (which is NOT everyone agreeing to the same thing, just a knowledge of what the majority opinion is) for once around here!

At the very least, rather than arguing manufacturer vs. manufacturer in a blind loyalty test, you have an opportunity to download all the files, and set up your OWN "blind taste test' by listening and judging the pianos without a knowledge of which is which (set up your own 'random' playlist, then sit away from the screen and make notes).

FINALLY, a way to find out whether what you post IS how you feel!

I don't expect anyone to agree with me. It's only MY opinion (as is everyone else's too!). But for once, here is the perfect way to ILLUSTRATE that opinion. If I say something sounds brittle, and something else sounds warm, I can then say 'play file x then file y' to show what I'm talking about.

How often, here, do we get the same opportunity..?

And yes, I've heard REAL pianists (classical stars) argue one manufacturer's piano over another nearly to the death

It's not just US who hold our opinions dearly!

Step over to Pianoworld.com You will see you are not alone in holding opinion dearly among classical players. Classical players are like Ophthalmologists, They don't deal with life and death situations but still hold themselves in higher regard then a General Surgeon.

I know its just me. but music, sound, recordings, songs, trends, Revered "guitar "heros" that can only play Drop D riffs on the top three strings,Rap music, Looped music, Award shows in the arts......no roots in the scholarly arena. Feel it, play it, sell it...

When someone comes into the store and asks me which guitar is the best. I don't run to taylor or Martin. I tell them to play a few including the Samicks and Yamahas and TELL ME!! Same with the Pianos and keyboards. I cannot possibly know what is best for someone else. thats why the debates/pissing contests are emotional and circular. No one hears with my ears. My ears hate multi million selling Hip Hop songs. What do I know? LOL

I went to that Piano shootout site and listened to many of those pianos. I found the Softsynth pianos were noticeably rich, But they did not use loops and sampled every note multiple times.But maybe I read that and assumed they were better....... The major digital keyboard pianos seemed far more hairsplitting in differences, My first thought was one could make the Korg sound like a Yamaha sound like a Roland using some Para EQ and/or compression.

I'm sure I'm just, thankfully unsophisticated aurally, so as not to become creatively paralyzed by seeking the Holy Grail with every voice. I know those who are and they do great work but much of it is not as appreciated as expected considering the time and effort they put into it.

Its like the classical pianist who has trained for 30 years and put all the time in and pain of endless hours playing Hanon exercises, learning great and very technically difficult classical works.....watching a self taught pianist make a living with great success and accolades playing things he was taught to be theoretically or technically wrong. The frustration has to be immense.

We all know the guy who can read down a chart the first time perfectly, but cannot play anything unwritten or improvise. I worked with people like that. I also worked with those who only read "Nashville charts" who could play off the cuff with great technical prowess and fervor. The best players are the rare ones that can do both equally well. I only had the pleasure to work with one of them. Mark Owens in Branson. But I also worked with and am a good friend of Judy Dozier (keyboardist for Billy Idol-Rebel Yell) a long time friend of my classically trained wife) who had far greater success with far less formal training whom I met when she worked for Legends in Myrtle Beach awhile after the glory days.




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-07-2009).]

Good points, but don't get into the middle of two guitarists talking guitars...

They make us arranger players seem like wimps! Pre-CBS, post-CBS, plastic winder covers, metal winder covers, Seymour Duncans vs. DiMarzios... and that's just for ONE specific guitar!

All we do is Yamaha vs. Korg, etc.!

THOSE guys are SERIOUSLY fanatical!

Best of luck with that one, mate! Sure, you could make a Roland nasty, thin and brittle. But it would still sound like a nasty, thin Roland, NOT a Yamaha! You can't EQ a SteinwayD into a YamahaCFIII, and you can't DSP a Korg into a Kawai. It's kind of like saying you could EQ and compress Frank Sinatra into sounding like Tony Bennett.

I know it's not quite what you intend, but it's funny to see someone who doesn't really play piano wax all knowledgeable... Ask your wife whether she thinks you could do that. Make a Steinway sound like a Yamaha.

The thing is, if you ARE a pianist, the sound of the piano is VERY important. It's kind of like your voice. You want it to sound a certain way. But it doesn't. It sounds like it sounds. It's YOUR voice. A piano, to a pianist, is kind of the same thing. Only, unlike the voice, you CAN change it. Finding the piano sound that YOU like, that makes how YOU play sound it's best, is not the search for the Holy Grail. THIS search is reachable...

I'm sorry, but only a non-pianist (that doesn't make you a non-arranger player!) would dismiss how important the sound of the piano is. Just as a non-singer would dismiss how important the singing voice is... For those of us raised on the piano, it's impossible to think that they are all the same, give or take a few EQ tweaks or so!

You might soften the brightness and punch of the Yamaha with EQ and/or compression, but I seriously doubt if you can fix the inconsistent notes in a Roland.

I haven't played Korg, so I can't comment.

Most vital to ALL piano sounds is the keyboard response and feel...synth action, or semi weighted actions are fine for almost every sound but piano...you want to feel like you're playing a piano...it has to have weighted hammer action...like a piano has...nothing, and I mean nothing, comes close.

There is no difference between a semi-weighted and synth action that a bit of time on the keyboard can't eliminate...most pro and/or accomplished players quickly adjust...it's just like the different actions on guitars.

But, the difference a real piano action makes is impressive, and it can make even an average piano sound feel far more satisfying to play.

We could cover this subject for months, even years, and even after listening to the all the samples on Purgatory Creek, there will still be differences of opinion on even the SAME piano.

I know the Yamaha piano sound is what I want to hear coming out of my speakers...I like the tone, the brightness, the presence, the consistancy and the response, but surely, there will be a few who will prefer something else...to each their own.

To get back on topic, the Roland rep I spoke to yesterday, tells me that Roland used a Steinway as one of the several pianos it employed for creating it's piano tones.

True or not? Doesn't really matter to me...I'm just the messenger, and I prefer Yamaha.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-08-2009).]

The most common problem I find with user complaints that relate to "inconsistent notes" regarding the piano sample actually have nothing to do with inconsistent notes at all (in terms of the raw piano sample). Most often you'll find the difference isn't in the note itself, but in the default velocity settings. These are all multi-layered pianos we're listening to and test playing. They ALL have different levels at which the velocity curves kick in.

The thing to look for is a board that not only allows you to manipulate the patch in the most common ways such as EQ'ing, and basic patch modify.., but to get your hands on one deep enough to allow you to adjust the velocity curve itself. I have yet to get my hands on any board (that allowed the user to adjust this setting) that I didn't have to adjust. Every Roland, Yamaha, and Korg I've owned needed not only the standard velocity adjusted to my playing style, but required me to go deeper and adjust the velocity curve too.

Many of these digitals out there are very nice and have good samples on them. However, many don't offer much in the area of "shaping" that sound (outside of basic velocity sens. settings, and brightness control). You're pretty much stuck with the way the maker says it's going to sound.

For me if it's gonna be 88 weighted keys bet for darn sure you're going to find the full "workstation" attached to the back end of those keys. Something that's going to allow me to go much deeper into the sound editing to really tailor that patch to my playing style and needs.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-08-2009).]

Sit down, set the curve to your liking, and then play each note up and down the scale, paying particular attention to the range staring at A below middle C, and up to and including the C above.

Then make your own mind up if the transition from notes is consistent or otherwise.

Inconsistency isn't an exclusive trait of Roland pianos...some Casio have the same issues as well...they suffer more in the lower and higher ranges...the middle is actually not bad.

I'm not picking on Roland...Yamaha's Concert Grand on the T3 is lacking in consistency.

I wish I could try a Korg, but they don't carry the brand at my local store.

Ian

I think they ALL to some degree have a certain amount of "inconsistency". However, I often find that user issues most often don't deal with that.., rather the issue lies in the default velocity settings themselves.., and many times those adjustments in this area can make a huge difference.

I grew up on the piano..., so I understand the need for a great piano sound (along with a killer set of keys) to appease those of us who traditionally are pianists. In hardware digital pianos and workstations there's ALWAYS shortcuts taken.., cheating here and there on the piano samples.. stretching here, compressing there, faking the stereo effect a bit. It's also not just the piano patches either as you can literally hear the shortcuts taken in other acoustic emulated instruments on today's keyboards too... I'll even use Roland as an example as in many cases regarding some of their stringed instruments such as violins and cellos you can REALLY hear the cheating. You want to hear inconsistency in a patch example..., have a listen to the default violins and cellos on my Roland RS-70.., but make sure you're sitting on the toilet first as the audio might make you do something involuntary. Gawd awful LFO changes from one note to the next and other disturbing things.

I too am picky about my piano sound. I know that NO digital representation is going to get me to that feeling of real ivory bliss.., but if I'm going to choose one that's digital..., I want as much sound shaping control as possible... That's probably what makes me a bit of a loner in terms of patch control to many users here. I don't look for Out of Box patch quality. I look for good raw samples and the tools onboard to allow me to turn that sound inside out should I feel the need.

**on a side note..., I knew some time ago about Roland's use of Steinway samples..., which is why Roland has always been my choice for piano patches.., I also remember hearing rumors that they were using Baldwin too**



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-08-2009).]

Roland didn't have a lot of choices when it came down to pianos to sample...they can't/won't sample Yamaha(except for the CP70/80) and that only really leaves Kawai or Steinway (and maybe Bosendorfer) as Roland do not make their own acoustics.

I doubt if they sampled a Young Chang,a Pearl River or a Samick...

I really liked Roland's SAS pianos...pity they didn't keep it up and delop it further but I guess it may have reached it's potential and was more hassle than sampling...SAS did a great electric piano sound....they also used it on the Roland (Rhodes) VK1000 and it did a great Hammond sim.

Ian