Have spent the last few weeks first looking at Arrangers like Yamaha PSR-S900 but then I got onto Synth Workstations -- as what I do is more creating music (pop, folk new age...) than covering music live. Although live could be a part of the future.

I am very impressed by the Arpeggiators in gear like Korg M50 and they totally unleash the creative juices. I fear than the "Styles" in the arrangers might be too fixed or "middle of the road" for me (no offence to those MOR lovers!)

Can anyone advise the advantages of the arranger over a workstation with a great arpeggiator function? The Korg M50 in addition has an amazing drum track function on top of the Arp.

Thanks to all....

I think you've got a pretty good handle on it...

Arrangers ARE primarily for performing, or creating MOR music. They CAN be forced into other roles, but it's not a great fit, IMO.

If you want to do mostly contemporary musics, use the same thing that you are trying to emulate! You won't hear a single arranger on ANY hit music, but you'll hear WS's all day long...

I found this article pretty interesting and informative.

http://www.sweetwater.com/shop/keyboards/professional-keyboards/buying-guide.php

Ian

Thanks Ian. I read that article over a month ago but forgot about it

Cheers !

Good article Ian. I read it some time ago when it was first published and agree wholeheartedly with the contents.

I'm not going to jump into the arranger v/s workstation foray, though. For me, and for my uses, the arranger is the most versatile piece of musical equipment I've ever come across. I'm confident others will like the workstation better.

Good Luck on your decision,

Gary

IMO If you feel competent as an arranger of all the parts of your music a workstation is the way to go. The Arps apparently make that task easier. I have no personal experience with the Arp based Workstations. My last was a Triton. I am looking at getting though as a module because the arranger for me is a great inspiration for new material. But not as easily adapted to a workstation

Take a look at the Korg PA2x. You will get a bit of both.Buy it, Try it for a few weeks , take the 15% hit. Again If you are comfortable around workstations and feel like the ARPs will make up for personal deficiencies with regard to arranging. That's the way to go.

Don't expect miracles form the Vocal aspects of the Arrangers. They are adequate judicially used, but I haven't found any I would use with confidence over a stand alone TC Helicon or Digitech,


[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-09-2009).]

"Don't expect miracles form the Vocal aspects of the Arrangers. They are adequate judicially used, but I haven't found any I would use with confidence over a stand alone TC Helicon or Digitech, "

Personally I would take the G70 vocal abilities over the aforementioned..

As usual, most folks do not know how to set these boards up properly...

The G70 Neutrik connection, preamp,effects, and harmony controls are as good as they get..


[

Also I would like to offer my opinion of choosing "arps" over the arranger styles..No comparison..the arps are just boring...and the arranger styles allow so much more to work with...

I believe a top of the line arranger keyboard is much more useful than a synth workstation...Had them both..worked with both....and I know what works in the real world..

del

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-09-2009).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kingfrog:
[B]Fran is right If you are going to play live. TOTL Arranger.

If you are going to create your own music and can arrange parts and assemble the tracks using a PC Sequencer, you will find the Workstation far more useful and easier to deal with. More sounds, more opportunity to tweak filters,envelopes, YOU are in control of a lot more aspects of your sound, including, writing and recording the variations beginning and endings to your songs. That's a great thing to be able to do.

Many want to do all of it themselves, I think arrangers can be of great help and a time saver, though as real players are "playing" the sequenced arrangements.

The Arps could be great for guitar parts, synths,contemporay loops, and some horn stuff, The the ARPs are like those found on Multi Pads in Arrangers and will follow your playing. You just need to put them together.

If you are working in a studio environment and Workstations don't generally come with serious mike pre-amps or harmonizers. I am assuming also you have a Large Diaphragm Vocal mike and separate pre amp and will not depend on the Keyboard for those tasks. That's why I made the comment about not using a keyboard for vocal parts.

The Ultimate solution? Buy BOTH. Get a PSR700 for the selective MIDI output of the massive style library available and a Korg M3,Roland, or Yamaha WS for the voices and and convenience of a Workstation in the recording environment.

If you are doing all contemporary music....Workstaion Hands down.

Does anyone even CARE that the original poster actually LIKES the arps in WS's, and finds that they get his 'creative juices' flowing...?

To be honest, if these get you inspired, you are NOT going to get the same from an arranger. Chalk and cheese. Different strokes. All that jazz...

I only WISH there was an arranger that the styles sounded even remotely as creative as most WS's loops are. But face it, guys. Arrangers aren't meant to INSPIRE you (unless you're a MOR freak ), they are meant to help you play songs, gig, all that. But try to be CREATIVE on them, and you quickly hit the wall of mediocrity that the styles have...

Don't get me wrong, mediocrity has it's uses. But if you are trying to do ORIGINAL, fresh music, styles aren't really designed to do that. They are generally designed to help you perform music in styles that have ALREADY become popular. WS's OTOH, really ARE designed to try to help you make ORIGINAL music.

Sure, if the manufacturers pulled their bloody fingers out their bloody a$$es, there's no reason why an arranger couldn't do all that... But without the CONTENT (sounds AND styles) designed for that task, it's an uphill battle.

Arrangers are VERY good at doing quick mock-ups of songs, of trying out chord progressions in established genres, and just giving you a quick 'instant fix' of full band accompaniment to try an idea out. But the more original and fresh you want your music to sound, the worse they work as a writer's tool, IMO.

Kingfrog will now disagree with everything I just said...

I agree with Diki..., don't underestimate those arps on the workstation. All you fellas who love those real sounding guitar strums on your arranger keyboards...., what do you think those things really are?????

Those are arps that utilize chord recognition synced with auto accomp. Perhpas some of you have already forgotten one of the leading sale points on the new Motif workstation was these new arps that give the feeling of "arranger style" playing with left hand chord recognition.

The guy says he's impressed with the arps.., those 1000's of arps on these synths aren't just space fillers either. The guy wants to do pop, and new age. Looks to me like he's wanting to play styles that lean more towards the modern areas. For that I'd suggest he stay away from the arrangers because none of them are doing a good job at catering to that.

Stefano.., I'd suggest the workstation man. Arps are a very powerful and useful tool to have on any keyboard.

No I agree.. He should get a workstation. I said as much. Especially if he wants a contemporary sound. I have not heard a song lately that I think will be requested at a party 20 years from now. Unless the "performer" is a DJ.

I could say "it's all been done" but Im 54 years old.........My influences are the same age and older. So in my case using Arrangers for writing is a good thing. Not to mention I am not looking for a "deal" nor would I attempt to write a loop based hip hop. Us old dudes are in good company, Music like that from Diana Krall, Michael Buble, and a whole list of other far more geriatric acts are still relevant.

I prefer "familiar" with interesting melody and lyric,Some would call that Mediocre. 12 bar blues will always be 12 bar blues.

I call playing the same old songs night after night the ultimate in mediocrity. My own wife would differ,but thats her joy. Can't argue with someones passion no matter what it is or the result,

Diki and squeak_D, you two "get it". I have now pretty much decided on the Korg M50. This was a late entry in my search but once I started playing it I could not get away from it. Went yesterday again to specifically play other rigs (to be objective) and still spent 95% of my time on the M50.

If you have not played the Korg M50 check it out, even if you are not looking for a kb right now. When you want a bit of inspiration the "combi's" alone are very cool. Kick in one (or two!) arps and you are flying. Kick in the drum track and you have takeoff !! Some of the arps are so well set up that all of a sudden you hear things you did not hear for the last 30 seconds -- the arrangements (no pun) of the arps are so well done they stay fresh longer than you might imagine.

thanks for your input

Stefano

Good luck with the M50 Stefano! Korg has really put out a winner with that budget workstation.., and YES Korg has amazing Combis. The way you look at those combis is like how Arrangers have OTS. Arrangers you pick a style and the OTS has presets (some good.., some not so good) preassigned to that style through the OTS buttons.

Synths have those Combis..., A good set of patches all assinged with a drum track and killer arps, with preassigned effects routing, ect. Korg IMO has some REALLY good combis.., especially in the orchestral department. So much happening in those..

I'm glad you found which one will work for you. You did your research! That really saves you a lot of headaches and even money down the line. Arrangers are great keyboards..., and they too are good song writing and performing tools. However, an arranger doesn't always fit one's needs. Sometimes you gotta go to the workstations.



[This message has been edited by squeak_D (edited 01-10-2009).]

All evidence to the contrary

(Just joshing you )

Stephen Kay has also just released his KARMA software for the M50
http://www.korgforums.com/forum/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=40108

If you like Arps, this will blow your mind totally.

Regards.
James.

I appreciate all the input. Karma is a bonus (for $199) that I will possibly explore -- but only after months of exploring the M50 itself.

thanks
Stefano

Stefano,
Please answer one question for me..Based on all your testing...How good are the instumental (Orchestral) voices on the M50? The real question I guess is how are the samples?

The original M3 AND the PA2/PA800 have quite a few really bad samples. Varying vibrato's, different timbres per sample, weak levels in upper ranges, white noise on a lot of the upper ranges strings... etc

Thanks,
Lee

Lee, while I did not test all String samples, those that I did test seemed very good. As good as those of Yamaha I would say, but not identical of course.

Stefano,
Thanks for the input...I may go to Sweetwater this week and try one for a while...
It won't take me long to see about the samples...
If it has any of the issues...it will be a no buy for me.
Lee

Lee, what are you playing now ? Would be interested in getting your comments if you do go and play an M50

I too was in this situation last year, I was very tempted to buy a PA2X. In the end though I went for a Motif XS and have never looked back. The 6000+ arps with the ability to play 4 simultaneously really gives incredible possibilities. In my humble opinion the sounds and especially drums are far superior to even the Tyros 3. Don't get me wrong I love arrangers, especially the T3 if I could afford one. However before making a decision I highly recommend that you check out the XS, it's an incredible machine and I instantly fell in love with it.

At the moment it's a hell of a lot cheaper too! Plus it's built for the pro market and not the home market. Shame Yamaha doesn't give the same attention to durability to their $3,800 TOTL arranger as they do their $2,200 TOTL Workstation.

Well, it kind of depends on what kind of player you are. I come from playing organ...left hand chords, right hand melody. With drum machine built in and newer instruments had accompanyments too. Todays arranger is yesterdays electronic organ, so to speak.

I am not a piano player, nor am I a top notch classically trained musician. I play for fun and to entertain friends/family.

AND I don't ever play in groups on stage.
AND I don't play much modern music. No screeming distortion guitars here...ever, Classic acoustic guitars ot clean Strat..Oh yes!

So, it's a lot easier for me to play some nice music on an arranger than on a Motif or other PRO synth.

I have had a Kurzweil K2600X and it doesn't get much better than that as far as PRO synth quality sound goes. Now they have the PC3 with up to 16 arp's playing!

I had a PC3 here for a week...awsome...but it is not an attanger.

To me at least a one man band player that is not a piano player is better off with an arranger (if you are a great piano payer...fine too).

When I had the Kurz...before I got an arranger seems all I ever did is play with the sounds, features etc and didn't play all that much music. It sounded a heck of a lot better in most respects than anyof the top arrangers today. That's what the Kurz was all about...QUALITY SOUND.

But that's only my perspective for what it's worth.

Lee

I agree. A T3 and an XS,VSTIs,M3M,,,, would be a nice combination....