Recently, I started a Friday/Saturday job at an upscale restaurant....the main and closest competitor to the place I worked for 14 years.

Starting the third week, I noticed that the lounge was filled with piano players. That week, a place that featured a piano bar...sometimes three players a night doing back-to-back two hour sets...changed to a DJ, got rid of the piano and let the rotating players go.

Now, all 5 have asked for work. I get $150.00 for thre hours. Two have offered to do the job for $100.00 and three have quoted $75.00.
All three are more than adequate, experienced players/entertainers.

I've known three of these guys for over 20 years. Three of them only do music for a living. They worked this other place for over 10 years.

I'm not dropping my price, which is below the fee I charge for private parties. The "glut" of out-of-work piano players may cost me a job.

I'll let you know what happens.

R.

I feel for you, Russ but everytime I hear this happening I think of the guys around Dayton who have overcharged and gouged musical clients/venues for years.

(I'm not saying you overcharged, I don't know if you did or not...)

Those guys screwed it up for a lot of people, IMO.

Mostly, this is a sensitive sector of our economy adjusting itself.

When demand declines, supply increases ergo price per unit drops

That's first semester macroeconomics 101, I'm afraid...

------------------
Bill in Dayton

Russ, let 'em have the job. You don't need it. I guess they know what they are worth.
Quite frankly, you are worth WAY more than $150. a night.
Later, when the guy calls you to come back, you can quote $200. or $250.
DonM

Russ, keep your price, but you may lose the job. And if you do, I doubt the owner will be calling you back - unless these guys are not as good as you say they are. If they have a following of ten years, it's a good bet some of that following will... follow.

Tough times lead to tough decisions.

If they were just breaking in, that's another story. I had to play for what I could get the first year (2007). The 2nd was appreciably better and this year is much greater. I'm already booking 2010 at an increase. If I ever get marketing tools together, I'll increase my earnings even more. Maybe one day I'll catch up to Dayton Bill

The trick is to get in as many facilities as possible and weed out the ones that will take 'anyone' and pay accordingly (ugh). (I'm really not interested in playing for places that you have to beg to get back and the so-called 'AD' is an idiot). I hopefully will narrow 2010 to a 100 or so. Currently I do about 175 (1 to 12x per month).

Not sure what to suggest Russ. I agree with both DonM and Cass - you're good and proven, but times are rough.

There are 7 upscale restaurants that pay $150.00 per night. There used to be 8 until a sax player came in with sequences last year at onwe of them and offered to do the job for $75.00.

That $150.00 price has been constant for about 15 years. There are 200 players chasing those 7 jobs, offering to do them for little or nothing.

This place is new. None of these guys have been serious competition in the past. If the place wants them at that price, I'll just go to one of the three that have contacted me in the last 3 months, including the top one I spent 14 years at.

I really believe in a free market economy. I feel that, if a player of lesser ability gets a job purely on the basis of price reductions, he/she can have it. If they're better than me, they deserve the job at a fair price. Usually, these "low dollar" offers do little but piss me off.

We'll see what happens.


Russ

Russ:

Bummer! Times are indeed bad. My 401k is a mere shadow of it's former self. I'll be looking for work too. Thankfully, I'm not a performer... just a songwriter who sings.

I'm not sure what I'd advise you... but my gut feel is exactly the same as Mason and the others. Stick to your guns but the situation sounds rough. Alot depends upon your relationship with the owner and your loyal fan base. Keep us posted. I wish you the best.

Dave Rice
http://www.ShowCaseYourMusic.com/DaveRice

Cap'n ... I am PRETTY SURE you are not in this for the money, but you shouldn't be underselling yourself either ...
I would stick to my price, and if I lost the gig, I lost it ...

As for your 'following', which I am sure you have, I wouldn't bet too much money that they are going to stop going to this restaurant just because you are not there ... UNLESS you land a gig in an equally good restaurant... Unfortunately restaurant goers are there PRIMARILY for the food ... good music adds to the ambience, but the vast majority are there because the food is good ... BAD music MAY keep people away, good music MAY help them stay, but music is NOT the reason people choose a restaurant ...

t.

its a buiness just like any other. If yopu were selling a product and your competitor sold a similar product at a chaeper price the only way to stay competitive is either to lower your price too or distinguih your product from the competitors in such a way as to justify the price.

What is unique about the way you entertain the customers that your competition is not able to do right now?

Get a stripper with you, you'll see your competitors go down fast...

Spalding, I'm the only one in the area that does jazz standards on a classical guitar in addition to keyboards and vocals. I specialize in cool jazz, where most of the others do either traditional jazz or standards only.

Price players have been around as long as I've been working. Some come in and don't even ask what the job pays...they say, "I'll do it for $50.00 less than Russ". It normally happens several times a week. The only thing different this time is the closing of the piano bar and the fact that I just started working for these folks. I'm careful, I think, not to price myself out of a job.

My main advantage is, I've sort of assumed the position as the "go to" guy for society jobs. I'm sort of a fixture for a certain clientel, which I know from business, university or social connections.
I suspect that talent has littele to do with it.

Luckily, I can go back to every place I've worked before, and they generally let me set the price, which I do at the upper end of the market. I generally stay for three years or more and leave for a change of scenery, on very good terms.

R.

Then smooth jazz on an classical/accoustic guitar is your unique selling point along with the flexibility being able to play arranger keyboard brings. But your real leverage is that fact that you are good at forming and maintaining relationships. Thats a very useful skill . People like doing business with people they like. If they have to do business with a stranger for a few dollars less or do the same business with someone they like trust and value for a few dollars more then they will most likely stay with you. However if your price is much higher than your competitors and they are good in terms of getting the audience involved and satisfied loyalty has a price point !! Especially if the places you play at are feeling the pinch of the recession that we are all experienceing. How do you promote yourself ?

Spalding, I'm in the marketing/publishing business. We do film work, packaging, web work and publications for Fortune 500 organizations, Universities, large multi-state financial holding companies and lots of foreign manufacturers.

Sadly, I don't have a web site, demo disk or even a publicity photo. In spite of that, I've been off a total of 9 weeks in 53 years...started at an officers club in Fairbanks, Alaska just after I turned 11. Most time off was moves between bases (my Dad was in the Air Force). I currently have job offers from three of the top venues in the area and over 200 private society one-nighters booked for the rest of the year.

Promotion is all interpersonal communications, usually involving business other than the music business at first.

I haven't had to look for a job, ever. But, in my case, a lot of the business comes from client connections, and talent is less important than it really should be. On a typical night, I'll have 20-25 business related folks/acquaintences in the audience. Thing is, Lexington, Kentucky is the biggest "one horse" town in the country. You're either "in" or not. We have the horse industry culture, the academic culture (UK, Transylvania University and a few others)
and the old money (farm) culture. Luckily, I'm associated with all three thru family members or long-time associates.

It's really hard to break in, but once you're an insider, always an insider, unless you go broke, and then no-one will even talk to you.
Pretty exclusive and snobbish. My father-in-law is from an old farm family. His dad was a local physician, he's a nationally respected psychiatrist and board member of both UK and Transy. That got me access to the money people and opinion leaders in the area.

I could care less if I stay on this job. It could be replaced with one as good or better with one phone call. I'd just be pissed off if I lost it to a lesser player who would work for nothing.


Russ

Then losing this job is of no real significance to you. Let the other players that are desperate for the work have it. It seems you have more of the pie than you can reasonably eat :-) some crumbs fallen from your table wont matter.

Losing this job is not a concern, but converting the pay scale from $150.00 a night to $75.00 is. There is a fine Italian restaurant in town. My friend George, who passed away last year, worked it for years.
I substituted for him often when he was sick. I let him keep the $150.00, because he needed it more than I did. The place was sold to new investors, and a kid who plays bad sax over bad sequences offered to do the job for $75.00. That is now the house rate. They get desperate, crap players who fight over the gig. The little dufus sax player has basically ruined the gig for good players. I think that's a shame. I have a standing offer for $100.00 for 2 hours there (that way, I could make a later job), and I won't do it. The new owners have offered me that because the patrons of this place are also patrons of the place I worked for 14 years and often ask if I work there anymore. Again, it's not ability that matters here, but price and draw power, and I know that at a restaurant, that's good business. Entertainment draw is not as important at a venue known primarily for food.

I just hate to see people in a business I love beg. That lowers the standard and the earnings for everyone.


Russ

Most of this is market economics, as I said before...

Try not to take it personally, Russ...

Thanks for the call by the way, that was sweet of you...

Hang in there-

------------------
Bill in Dayton

Russ,

Don't let one isolated case immobilize you. That stuff happens EVERYWHERE in this current market. You have enough to keep course

Yeah and they are practically giving away Chevys too.....

The market will decide what the compensation will be. Always does. When the compensation drops to levels some won't or cannot work for, others will gladly fill the void....See fruit pickers and soon autoworkers.Good Karaoke DJs can make $50 an hour around here and work six hours a night playing from notebook computers. That is where the money is around here. People like being part of the show and the variety over the same voice for 4 hours. The bane of OMB around here for sure. Many OMBs have actually gone the Karaoke route for more money and more work. less overhead and one does not have to sing at all if they don't want to. It's genius really. My wife hates Karaoke but she "gets it." She is versatile enough to be able to work despite it.

But all in all The idea is NOT need to earn $150 a night to survive. If thats the case personal finances need attention. The easiest and most immediate way to get a raise is to cut expenses The idea is to enjoy the work.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 04-11-2009).]

I LOVE competition, on a level playing field.

If someone who is my equal in terms of ability and draw power, but hungrier and willing to do my $150.00 job for $75.00, he/she's earned it.

It's the people of marginal ability who beg and plead, willing to do anything they need to to get the gig who bring the image of the pro musician down that I find offensive.

I've had acquaintences call a job I was on and tell the management that I took another job at a competitor's place just to try to work their way in.

Truthfully, I've never lost a job because of price. It's kind of like a hard-to-reach pimple...an irritating pain in the ass!

Russ

It really doesn't matter who you think your "equal" is. It only matters to who those paying the bill who can do the job well enough for their purposes. Thats how Karaoke got so huge...No musicianship needed yet they took the place of former musicians. OMBs hate Karaoke because there are no skills required yet they earn the same money. And it draws a crowd just the same. Unless one is doing background restaurant or Mall music, Karaoke is far more a threat then another player who will work for half because he is half as good but good enough to the client.

We're talking about background restaurant music.

R.

I'm surprised nobody yet mentioned these holes that host "jam sessions" or "open stages". One way to get a night's entertainment for nothing, I guess. Cheap b******s.

IN LA bands routinely pay to play.....

Looking back, I am grateful that I started using an arranger keyboard for my restaurant/dinner gigs, gradually phasing out the piano.

There are lots of piano players in my area, but there are only two of us using arrangers for these types of gigs, and we both get more than enough work, I'm guessing mainly because we provide something a little different than the usual piano background.

Ian

Same here, Ian. All the folks "sniffing around" this job are conventional po=iano players who have been using a house acoustic grand.

One fellow uses a sequencer, but can't do requests at all. He simply has a keyboard around to "look the part".

There is only one other arranger player in my area. He has a duo, uses massive subs and has a laptop and very structured sets.

Really haven't had much competition in this area.


Russ

Try doing it in Nashville. I played 3 gigs this week that didn't total $150 combined. Lol, luckily I had a couple that were better than that, but still. Try playing in a western swing band with 6 members, all of whom are absolutely ace players, and making $30 a man. It's insane. And, I suppose if I squander all my savings before I manage to make it here, then I'll do like all the other players do. Go on unemployment through the slow months and spend any savings I do make on really expensive instruments and use it as a writeoff.

A laptop and a pair of 802's...and you have it made in Kingfrog's area...

Money I use to live on is not the issue here. $50.00 an hour to play clubs is way below the fee I charge for nearly everything else. I get $150.00 per hour to write copy, $1800.00 a day for industrial photography and up to $250.00 an hour for research implementation and film or print design/production.

Thing is, playing takes as much or more ability than my other activities. It's just a shame that dumbass club owners and
snake" musician wanabees have ruined the business for others.

Thankfully, there are operators here and elsewhere who pay a fair fee and don't let price only dictate who they hire.


Russ

Perhaps those snake music wannabes don't have the fortune of an independent business working with Fortune 500 companies. Maybe some of them are trying to live entirely on a music income...

Put yourself in their position, Russ. Would you starve, so a more experienced player who doesn't even need the money could keep his over-valued job at a restaurant, or would you try competitive means (he's not beating you up in a back alley, just offering to work for less!) to keep body and soul together...?

Yours is a somewhat unique viewpoint on the business... You don't need the gig, you don't need the money, and the owners don't really need high level entertainment. But you are mad (in a nice way) if anyone else goes after it

Capitalism is everybody's best friend until someone comes along that is more cutthroat than you... then it's bring on the bail-out, and the hell with the free market!

Diki, I actually appreciate your response. If you came in and offered to do my job for less than I was making, I would not regret the loss, since I assume our abilities are somewhat comparable.

I guess my frustration has to do with the dishonesty and price cutting that also bothers me in the corporate world.

As an ex Hippie, my ideals are, well...idealistic when it comes to the creative process. In the music businesss as well as in business in general, the best qualified, best producers don't always win.
Snakes abound, unfortunately. The only salvation is, good work, trust and appreciation matter in enough cases to make things OK.

I actually go in unannounced to clubs or prospective client locations and check to see how management treats their employees. I check business ethics issues. If I don't like what I see, I'm out of there. I walked away from a $10,000.00 a month marketing retainer contract with a private college a few years ago. The president is an ordained minister who has been fired by his own church, twice (he was a home office administrator).

He is the sneakiest little back-stabber I ever met, and I don't want anything to do with him. The damage he does by sucking up to a volunteer board and then treating his direct reports like dirt, including using threats to separate the employees from the board is terrible. He has ruined lots of careers.

That's just the way I handle both my company and my music business.


Russ



[This message has been edited by captain Russ (edited 04-17-2009).]

Russ we get paid for what we do whatever that is based on the POOL of people who THE BUYER considers can do the same thing EQUALLY well. Not what you or I believe about ourselves, If there were 10,000 Neil Impersonators in every city, I could not have earned what I did and made a lucrative run out of what many do,have, and continue to ridicule. Like Karaoke....All the way to the bank, I get it.

The more who do exactly what you do as well as you do in the client's view client, the less they have to pay. It's not a tough concept to grasp really. No one has ever asked me or my wife if we read music or can play or sing like Opera Stars. (although she got longterm show contracts where she HAD to read, but was paid well for the additional skill) If bar owners demanded reading skills prices would go up LOL....

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 04-17-2009).]

there is always a semblance of truth in comedy. In this case the truth is laptops yes......But even the cheapest Karaoke DJs around here don't use $100 speakers to stake their reputations on.

Obviously you have tried the Podiums and have dismissed them based on their lack of quality and performance.
No??? Then you are out of line.
DonM

I wasn't one of the early adopters of the Yugo either.....Sometimes it's good to be "out of line" In fact I hate lines. I live and always lived and colored outside the lines...No complaints.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 04-17-2009).]

Seems to me if you were coloring outside the lines, you would be open to new and unorthodox solutions, rather than say "well it doesn't cost enough so it can't be any good".
I'm feeling old and cantankerous. I'm 65 and still willing to try things "outside the line".

DonM

If I'm undercut out of a gig, I try to at least talk to the owners or manager, and ask them to review their sales figures in a couple of months time. If the new, cheaper, and generally lesser entertainment has ended up COSTING them sales (who wants to hang around and get a few more drinks if the entertainment is that lousy? ) compared to when I played there, I ask them to give me a call back...

If not, good riddance to them!

You would be surprised at how many find out, to their chagrin, that lesser entertainment often DOES equal less sales. The hard part is making the managers understand that it WAS the entertainment change that lead to the drop-off. They are notoriously hard to get to admit that the good entertainment was the cause of their profits (otherwise it would be easier to get a raise!), and that dropping it was the cause of their decline.

Actually, I get quite a bit of work where sight reading is required. Usually it's at the bottom of the pay scale and challenging as hell. There was a guitar player from Florence, Ky named Cal Collins (Google him. He died about five years ago, but was pretty well known world-wide in jazz circles) who would come in the area. He would play colleges or jazz events with no rehearsals. The charts were guidelines only, and every performance was a delight. Trading fours...modulations...tempo changes...everything was do=ne with a "shoot from the hip" attitude, and we pulled it off to everyone's great joy.

Others are jazz department heads at regional schools...a few big bands still working occasionally, etc.

FUN STUFF!


Russ