Might as well throw this thread out as well...

I did not click on the receive emails when post are made, so I'll check back later.


Have fun ...

I like to see anyone from Roland USA post anything on Synthzone, Answers to questions, new news about an existing product, new product launch, etc since we are always so quick hardline the reps from Ketron & Yamaha.

[This message has been edited by mc (edited 01-22-2009).]

When Roland use a completely different mechanism to generate chords, I'll have plenty to say at that point.

I already know (and so do you) EXACTLY how these manufacturers' chord recognition (and generation, that's BY FAR the more important detail, IMO) works, and it's strengths and weaknesses. No-one (except for a tiny few) knows about the Audya's, which uses an entirely different mechanism for PLAYING the chords...

In the meantime, starting threads about the competition's performance rather than answer questions definitively about your own strikes me as a smoke screen. You see, timely, accurate, unvarnished answers will do FAR more to deflect criticism than starting a pogrom against your competition.

Look, EVERY arranger has it's strong and weak points. I've filled an entire forum with weak points of the G70! I'm not doing this to get AT Ketron. I do it to inform others (and in the process, myself) how arrangers work, and what they do well, and not so well...

Let's just put it this way... if I have a question about a Yamaha point of operation, Steve Demming doesn't come here and post questions about the SAME point of operation on Yamaha's competition. And, IMHO, neither should you.

Why not answer our questions in detail, without evasiveness, and then go on to explain in more than marketing hype about some of the Audya's strengths? I'd be VERY interested in hearing about how the 'interactive' playing features work, about whether you have either dropped, or improved the 'Riff' feature from the SD-1, perhaps some info about whether the style editing has been improved (I'm sure Rikki is interested in this ), style re-voicing options, that kind of thing...

Rather than this, sorry to say it, but IMO, dismal attempt to deflect commentary by questioning the competition.

mc... sorry, you'll get an answer from the CIA easier than public communication from Roland. Over at Roland-arranger.com, and prior to that the G7 Users Forum (the main English speaking Roland arranger forums), we got exactly ONE direct communication from a Roland employee in over three YEARS.

And that was to do with a screw-up about upgrade software.

Other than that, zero, nada, zip, zilch...

We need to put these guys in charge of the nation's security. They do a far better job than the leaky CIA and NSA!

If anyone thinks that RolandUS give a rat's arse about the arranger market over here, I'd sure like to hear how you come to this conclusion... OS3 for the G70 has been out well over a year. A VERY significant upgrade. There isn't word one about it on RolandUS's site...

If it weren't for the Europeans, Roland would drop arrangers altogether.

Some musicians on this forum have had a chance to play and hear the Audya.. They have stated their judgement about chord recognition and I suppose their musicianship doesn't qualify .. I guess they are not good enough to play the chords you need to know about and their ears are not trained enough for you to let this rest until you possibly can judge for yourself.

To say that Ketron is purposely putting up a smoke screen because one or two people on this forum call in to question their ability to design a keyboard that would play and sound musically correct is getting old.


But at least there is a thread for it...



Let's just keep it right here and not take over any more threads ..

You mean, all the other threads YOU started to question this exact same issue on other keyboards?

Doesn't seem like you are all that concerned about this topic spreading, after all...

I'm sorry if you think that questioning the manufacturers demo-ers and representatives for definitive information about a topic rather than the tiny few members here who did NOT try the Audya with my humble questions as their main priority as some kind of insult. After all, why should the manufacturer, as he choses to make himself public here, feel obliged to answer anything? It's the job of the membership to ferret this info out for ourselves... You are honestly trying to take this position?

Only the manufacturer, at this point, is capable of a definitive answer. Sorry if anyone who played it feels insulted that I MIGHT want this information from the maker, and not someone who had a bare few minutes on the Audya. Or IS there anyone out there insulted?

I don't think so....

Any Roland arranger + PK5/MIDI pedals = Best. Chord recognition. Ever. Any chord, in any inversion, over any bass. Recognized perfectly.

Unless you want rootless jazz voicings... (which I don't, but it is an issue with SOME players).

I do, however, find Roland's Intelligent ( ) chord recognition to be FAR too glitchy as it recognizes chords VERY quickly (faster than a 16th) and will give you dodgy results if you don't get used to the shortcuts it wants to see. Play a REAL four note chord, and you had better get all four down simultaneously, or it will glitch through the first note or two as it guesses the wrong chord.

I far prefer Pianostyle Mode, where it waits for three notes before it changes, or Standard, where it will play open chords with far less glitching. Sometimes, compared to Yamaha, I think that Roland have got the chord recognition TOO fast! Yamaha is far more forgiving of sloppy chording. Maybe Roland need a 'Chord Window' adjustable parameter, to let the user decide how quickly it should respond? 4th note, 8th note, 16th note, etc.?

I believe the issue with the Korg Pa series chord recognition (more pronounced when set to Retrigger and better so with chord parts using GUITARS) is also tied in with the 'Fill In' issue discussed in another thread.

On the other hand though, KORG still has one of the most interactive and editable Arrangers plus styles that have 'accents' programmed on some measures so they do not seem like 'loops'.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 01-23-2009).]

I completely agree, however, an awful lot of Korg's success with the style doesn't come from unique OS features... Most arrangers are capable of playing longer styles. Most arrangers are capable of at least three different patterns (subtle or gross, it makes no difference) per style. It's just that the manufacturers rarely make as inventive use of these features as Korg does...

I give a lot of kudos to the Korg style team. They certainly make better use of what their arranger really is capable of than some others...

Diki, I like the idea of a user-adjustable "window" for intelligent chord recognition. When a style is running, Yamaha does a great job of using portamento to sneak the correct notes in if you play them late. But I often play lower backing with the style stopped. As a single-finger chord player, I can tell you that my midis are loaded with false notes (and even false chords) because the recognition is *very* quick. By analysing the tempo and "ticks", I determined that if you press the 2nd note even 0.008 seconds later in some circumstances, you may get lingering overtones from a premature incorrect chord. This is especially apparent with left-hand voices rich in harmonics when the style is stopped.

Ironically my old PA-50 was very forgiving in this regard, apparently using a "batch" recognition strategy. If I had to guess, I would say the Korg waited about 25ms (0.025 sec) or more for you to press a 2nd or 3rd key before sounding the chord. So unless I was very clumsy and indecisive it rarely played a premature chord. Just to make sure there was no internal quantization going on, I midi'd it into the Yamaha for a quick record. I never found any false notes in the score!!

Most of you play in the mode where 3 notes are required to change the chord, so I can't imagine there would be a problem with premature recognition. The chief problem with "easy" or "intelligent" chords is that major chords require only one note, but other types require more. So the programmers have to decide how long the machine should wait before sounding a one-note major chord. I am aware of the problems with the Technics KN-6000 at its release, so making this window user-adjustable is the best approach.

While they are redoing this part of the OS, they should also allow the user to customize the "intelligent" recognition. For example: minor 3rd below the root could be 6th (Korg) or minor (Roland). C+F should be Csus4. (Korg recognizes this, Roland doesn't.) C+F# is Dim on Roland but not on Korg. On the better Yammies, CMaj7 must be played in root position with a low C. But on cheaper boards like PSR-E413 you can play B2+C3+E3 (which is easier fingering for me!).

Chord recognition (and styles) are the defining characteristic of an arranger. Yamaha's weird "AI Fingered" mode was introduced about nine years ago, and not much has happened since. More customizability in this area, and a degree of Karma-like randomness in the styles could herald something truly new and different (as opposed to the mild upgrades we have been seeing.)
My $.02,
Ted

[This message has been edited by TedS (edited 01-23-2009).]