not to pick on the AUDYA, cuz i actually may buy if the price is right....

but what are your thoughts on it's LCD/GUI?
the actual "look"?

being a G-70 owner, and having played Fantom, i feel the AUDYA's Interface looks quite "old", or shall i say "DOS" like, or Windows 3.1'ish... low-res...16 color

of course this should be of least concern at this time, and first prioroty should be programmability, usability, expandability, sound and style quality...

BUT i feel that it should "look" a bit more modern than it does...

a "pro" keyboard should look and feel "pro" in every way...that's all i gotta say

Ketron was never big on pretty colored displays...no need for it.Audya should be Black like the X1.

[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-28-2009).]

i disagree... it is important

what attracts you first, or draws you in first, are the looks... this is the case with cars, people, food, electronics, etc.

generally speaking, if something "looks like a toy", people think it's a toy...

with that said, i do still feel priority is on sound, not looks

Dnj,

no i don't think the AUDYA screen should be black like X1, it should have looked something like this instead...
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1073/1348179813_285b1a4ff9.jpg?v=0

Im not talking about a black screen .......Im talking the Body...these kbs are just a cash register tool for me period.

the sound & comfort level feature wise in live play on stage is my first concern...couldnt give a crap about the silly colors & icons. Other wise I dump it quick.



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-28-2009).]

yes , a matte black body would have looked sexy as hell, and made it stand out from the other Ketron products,

i think it's time they retire that boring, dull beige/silverish color

The G1000 was one if the most sexiest looking arrangers ever made
http://www.rolandus.com/products/productdetails.aspx?ObjectId=439

Until you played outside in the sun...

Then it made a good griddle

I've played wholle gigs with a towel covering the entire keyboard (except for the keys )... good job it had buttons for everything! It was kind of weird to hit an area on the towel, and just HOPE you had hit the right button...

While I realize that they are more in the way of dirt magnets, those silver finishes on the Ketron, T3 and Korg's help keep the keyboard cooler outside.

i wasn't thinking about the heat factor as 99% of my gigs are indoors ....

but for those playing outside, i see the problem

Thats BS sun is sun & metal is metal nuff said....get an umbrella or flea market kiosk tent...Black is beautiful.

Sorry, I can't stop laughing, considering the source. Next thing you know, Kingfrog will be coming flat out against slavery.....well, at least in principal.

chas

So how do you explain the popularity of the T1, T2 and T3 with their looks?

I know I prioritize sound above looks, but the instrument still has to work well ergonomically...buttons logically placed, and all controls easily accessible....no touch screens for me.

My main reason to getting the S900 after using a PSR-3000 for some time, was the sound...I love the SA Sax and SA Concert guitar on the former, and being mainly an instrumental player, it was important to me to have these sounds....they were worth the upgrade alone.

Silver is still the "in" color, although I have a suspicion the new mid-range S-series will have black cabinets, much like the recently introduced PSR-S550.

Ian

after using the touch screens for some time now, I really cant say I think they are better. And the comments, the sound, output and quality of output is more important, I agree. This looks to be a simple navigation arena in the Audya, and I like that, the less complicated the better, after all we want to play, not be stuck in some page 27 on the screen trying to change a voice. So I will be more interested in looking further at the screen and the layouts as time moves along. Right now just hoping that the end price is relevant to the world global crisis, otherwise this could all be for nothing. If its priced at around T3 Aus $5k then its a winner if its $7k Aus, then I would be worried, but it shure looks and sounds great so far.

I think that most arrangers that do not have a touch screen all have similar navigation..
1.You press a button
2. Look in the screen
3.The styles & or sounds are lined up next to function buttons on each side of the screen
4.You touch a function button to select what you want ..

How many pages are under each sound & style button are a factor and this is where Yamaha products become a problem. There are many pages under the sound & style categorys , making it hard to navigate in real time.. Ketron is never more than 3 pages with sound selection.. or style selection.

On the Yamaha arrangers, the Direct Access button really helps with navigation, and most people use registration buttons...much more efficient.

Touch screens have no tactile feedback whatsoever...not a good thing, in my opinion, and why I don't want an instrument that has one.

They are also very hard to use if a person is visually impaired.

Just like the old argument about the pitch bend lever/joystick versus the wheels, there will always be those who will argue that one is superior than the other.

It's nice to have a choice.

One thing that looks very awkward to use on the Audya are the style controls...the demonstrators all seem to have a bit of difficulty with them...why were they centrally located?

Hardware constraints must have dictated that location...otherwise they would have been situated on the left where the majority of players would find them easier to access.

The wheels seem a tad too high up on the panel as well.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-28-2009).]

I have to disagree with that one... 'Touch screens have no tactile feedback'

A well designed touch screen HAS tactile feedback... you touch it, you can feel that you have touched it. And then it works. There's WAY too much old school reaction to touch screens dating back to when they WEREN'T reliable. But, as with most things computer based, things have got MUCH better. I NEVER have to hit an area on the G70 screen twice, In fact, I don't have to look at all. As long as I hit the right area of the screen (and it is just as easy to hit the wrong button, if buttons are your preference, if you don't look) as long as I can feel I've touched it, it just works.

I've got a classic Triton. That is MUCH more likely to get something wrong. But hit the right target zone on the screen (no more difficult than picking the right button in a sea of other buttons) on a G70, and the function works 100% of the time.

My only problem now is simply the choice of layout, where the virtual buttons are... they aren't always in the area I would LIKE them to be... But that is a problem with physical buttons just as much, with the advantage that at least a software screen COULD be redesigned after the fact, which a button can't be...

So, simply put... if your impression of touch screen effectiveness goes back a generation or so, rest assured. Things have got VERY reliable.

So...you're saying the G70's screen clicks under your finger in a physical manner like a button? You can feel the part of the screen under the virtual button move and click into place?

I don't remember feeling anything in the way of a definite tactile response on the G70's screen.

Why are the visually impaired so strongly opposed to them?

I know I found it harder to see with my peripheral vision...certainly no where as visible as a button with a light in it, and I found that my rather large fingers didn't negotiate too well.

But, I guess it seems to work well enough for you.

ALso, the screen's virtual buttons (or areas) are not physically delineated which negates sliding your finger around and locating by touch alone.

I have a blind friend who tried the G70 whilst it was here at my place...he thought the screen was virtually useless.

Bright sunlight? Not good.

I know I would be very disappointed if Yamaha went that way....perhaps they are waiting for the technology to improve even more before they venture into that area?

As they are presented now, I found them a step back rather than a step ahead.

Ian

[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 01-29-2009).]

No, I have not said that. The feedback is you feeling that you've touched something. You CAN feel when you've touched the screen, can't you? No nerve damage, or anything like that?

You see, unlike a button, which you CAN touch without activating it (and which is why it IS important that there be a noticeable 'click' as it's is depressed), a touch screen only needs you to touch it. Didn't feel yourself touch it? Then you haven't. Feel your fingers touch the screen? Then you activated it. No need for a click...

Listen, I was as dubious as you when I first got it. Now I virtually NEVER mis-hit anything on the screen. Certainly no more than mis-hitting buttons. But the main advantage over the Yamaha button system is the sheer amount of controls that can be packed onto one screen... ONE screen has every single control for Vol., Pan, Reverb and Chorus for ALL the keyboard Parts (all nine of them) that you can see at a single glance. No paging through a bunch of screens, just to even FIND what you need to adjust.

We all know that multi-function screens are a necessary part of today's very complex arranger. They help keep prices down (because buttons and sliders - and the associated electronics to read them - are VERY expensive). Imagine an arranger with a button or a slider for EVERY function the screen does... It would be a MAZE of buttons hat would be harder to play live that using a screen! And cost as much as a Wersi

For the blind or visually impaired, well, there's always the option of staying on older gear with no screen, or, as I usually recommend, actually USING the registration features rather than trying to go old school and use these technical marvels as a 'free panel' relic. If you prepare your show at home, with some sighted assistance, and store everything in dedicated registrations, there is little need for the screen AT ALL on a gig.

Registration (UPG) navigation can bee done without sight as the list does not wrap around. You can hit the bottom left of the screen and page back to Page 1 by simply tapping it a bunch of times, then hit the bottom right a specific number (to get to a specific page), then touch the screen in one of ten areas (there ARE little notches in the side and bottom of the surround, to help guide you) and you have activated your Registration..! For songs that need multiple settings, you can either use the OTS (all programmable) or use footswitches or FC-7 switches to page up or down through the UPG list (UPS).

Were I visually challenged, I might also consider getting a raised overlay for the touch screen with raised areas to guide my fingers, so my hand knew where it was BEFORE I press anything...

But yes, I can see how, in todays world where almost everything from food dispensing machines to program guides on the television are multi function displays, things have got MUCH harder for the visually impaired. And sadly, as arrangers have grown from the simple things they were into today's do anything machines, things are no different in arrangerland.

[This message has been edited by Diki (edited 01-29-2009).]

Perhaps you're right Diki, but I spent a week or more on the G70 and I really missed having that tactile click that only a button can give.

I suppose if I had more time I could adjust...it's not something I would willingly go for, but if I was forced into it, I would learn and probably experience no problems.

My blind friend really had a lot of trouble with it...he's presently using my old PSR-8000 which he mamages very well.

With him it all depends on memory...how many times to press a switch so a certain menu pops up...then remembering which switces to change the parameters...I watched him navigate around on the 8K...it was pretty amazing.

I really hope Yamaha never goes to a touch screen....so far so good.

Ian

You are definitely a better man than me, Ian

I don't expect to get comfortable with ANYTHING new in just a week or so! Took me a year to get used to the DX7's programming...

I definitely have issues with the PLACEMENT of a few buttons (Fill Rit. is a bit small, and the Part transpose buttons are in the middle of the screen, rather than at the bottom - that's the only function I would prefer physical buttons for) but their activation is 100% reliable.

I sympathize with the visually impaired (heck, my own eyesight ain't what it used to be!) but can't really see round the issue, and am loathe to use Yamaha's system, which requires a LOT more button pushes to call up all the different screens. You know me... I'm playing with both hands - I haven't got time for much screen navigation while I play!

In this case, with the buttons and screen layout, for the visually impaired I would definitely recommend the Yamaha's lack of touch screen. But for those still with sight, I can't tell you how easy the Roland screen is to use! It drives me crazy playing a FantomG or MotifXS now, as I keep hitting the damn screen and nothing happens! I can't WAIT for an arranger with a nice big 12" widescreen touch display (sort of like the Neko's)!

Well, I wouldn't agree that sensing the contact of the top of the finger and plastic of the display could be considered as 'feedback'.


Feedback implies returned information, so when You press a button, you get feedback (because you can sense button mechanism moving i.e. 'click') and You know that You pressed the button and haven't missed it. Also, if the buttons have good tactile-feedback You can be also be sure that You, not only pressed a button but also, performed desired action (because if You haven't pressed the button all the way down, You will not feel the 'click' and then You can be sure nothing will happen).

Another 'plus' of the buttons compared to touch-screens is the fact that you can feel the shape of the button (before pressing it) under Your finger, and if You missed it, You can quickly correct the position of the finger.

With touch-screen You can feel the contact of your finger and the screen, but You can only:

- hope that You hit the right area of the screen

- hope that the desired action will be performed

, because there is no feedback at all.


Because all of this, buttons are more reliable than touch-screen especially in the situation when You need to perform one or more operations really quickly.


Not to mention the fact that when your touch-screen 'dies' (and it is quite fragile) you cannot do much with the keyboard, and the cost of repair is expensive, while if the same happens to a button you can still use most of the operations (depending of the importance of the broken button), and the repair price is just fraction of the touch-screen price.


[This message has been edited by kalimero (edited 01-29-2009).]

Aw shucks Diki...I ain't no better man than you.

I'm just more humble...that's all.

My blind buddy could play circles around both of us (well, me for sure!)...especially on piano...but he got this thing in his craw about the arranger...partly my fault for bringing one over to his house one fateful day.

He's pretty darn good on the 8k now, but it's all home playing and he has no interest in gigging.

We've been best buddies for years, and I've learned an awful lot from him.

I took a while to grasp the DX7 as well...totally different from the analog I grew up with...I used to say learning the DX7 was like learning to play chess.

I used to spend hours analysing the way Bo Tomlyn managed to get his patches to sound the way they did...just like watching a chess master.

But I digress.

I'll probably be dragged kicking and screaming into the world of touch screens, if I'm ever denied the chance to use buttons...old ways die hard, just like they did when I went to the DX.

Ian

Put me down as a touch-screen guy. Once you get used to them, you never want to go back. I'm constantly touching the screen on my T2 and FantomG only to be rejected with a silent, icy stare. I feel like a sex offender.

With a good screen layout and properly sized 'virtual' buttons, touch-screens are the only way to go FOR ME. Of course they need to be supplemented with a few DEDICATED buttons, knobs, and sliders. Actually, I'm holding out for a voice-recognition system with lots of sophistication; like, if you sing off-key, the system shuts down (may not be the system for you, Fran ).

In the end, it comes down to what you get used to. Still, I wouldn't mind some real drawbars on my C1; old habits are hard to break.

chas

I hate to disagree, here (everyone has their preferences), but, let's compare this to buttons...

If you don't LOOK at the buttons (and there are a lot of them, if you don't have buttons on a touch screen), it is JUST as easy to screw up and hit the wrong one. And sorry, but simply touching the screen is 100% reliable. In other words, if you can FEEL (there's that tactile sensation for you ) the screen, you HAVE activated the function... unlike a button where you can hit it, but maybe not hard enough. In fact, it's the BUTTON that is the less reliable function, requiring a defined 'click' to let you know it has activated. No need whatsoever for this on a touch screen. Simply touch the screen in the right place, at ANY hardness whatever, and the function activates.

As I said, I have had trepidations when I first started using touch screens (on my Triton Classic) which were born out by how less sensitive that one was. But my G70 is an entirely different beast, not only faster and more (100%) reliable on the screen, but colored and easy to spot important areas.

And sorry, but a few damaged buttons (even ONE) can bring a non touch screen arranger to it's knees. That one's a push, IMO.

There is a few weeks of getting used to it, then, I'm sorry, but you don't want to look back...

Simple question, everybody; How many that HAVE a modern color touch screen, used for quite a while (no 2 week tryouts, please!), would prefer to go back to buttons?

Not too many, would be my guess...

And let us not forget...the touchscreen can speak back to you..if you desire...it can beep quietly when you make a selection on the touch screen...

Options on the G70..

I'm not convinced...I find using buttons far more convenient...and thankfully Yamaha still uses them.

Ian

Diki,

There's no need to hate if You dissagree, after all, that's what the forums are for (among other things). :-)

My turn to dissagree now. ;-)

If You ever saw somene who properly learned typing then You know for sure that You don't need to see the buttons in order to be able to type very fast (faster then those who 'search every letter on a keyboard'). I have yet to see somene doing the same thing on touch-screen (or sensor keyboard which is quite similar).

When You use Your keyboard for a some time, You remember position of the buttons, and You can use them without loking for them with Your eyes (afeter all, You are probably playing the keyboard without watching Your hands).

As for the tactile sensation, it is not the same es tactile feedback, the first one gives You just information that You touched something, while feedback gives You information that You performed action. Of course, there are different kind of buttons, and lower quality ones are usually without feedback (using plastic foil instead of mechanic parts), but buttons with good mechanics gives You exact information wheather you performed action or not.

For a touch screen it would be great to have some feedback system like vibrating device, that would trigger when You press a key (silent because audible systems, like the one Fran mentioned, have no use when playing loud music).

As for the reliability of touch-screens, I haven't use any on keyboard, but from expirience with other devices (PDA, notebook, mobile, POS terminal) I know for sure, that touch of the screen doesn't equals with performing action.

[This message has been edited by kalimero (edited 01-30-2009).]

kalimero,

Diki performs on a beach and is surrounded by lovely women in bikinis...the last thing he's looking at while he's playing is his hands.

Ian,
The buttons are great for OPERATIONS...however the touch screen is super for setup/programming etc...one good example is entering text for naming things etc. On my PA2XPRO, you touch the item and a popup keyboard comes up..full alphanumeric and special characters. Super nice..instead of pushing all those buttons over & over untill you get the chatacter you want (in this day & age that is very poor).

When writing your own styles, creating your own sounds, sampling, editing MIDI sequencer files etc. the touch screen is the very best.

Also, when I am playing I do not need the touch screen function rarely...it's all with the buttons.

Lee

I am glad you are happy with the touch screen, Lee...Korg seems to be the best at incorporating them.

But, they are most definitely not for me...I am much more comfortable with Yamaha's system.

The ergonomics of my S900 are nearly perfect for me...if I would change anything, it would be to have the DSP Variation button on the left side.

Everything else falls easily to hand, to coin an old phrase....and I love the feel of the buttons...nice and grippy.

Then again, being such a progressive company, maybe Yamaha will offer a touch screen with delineated areas and true tactile feedback...perhaps having the best of both worlds?

Ian

I'm not a big fan of touch screens. I have big fingers. But no deal breaker.
I REALLY miss dedicated buttons for the vocal and harmony settings on S900. Instead you have to go through three screens. Oh and to adjust the mic input, get up, walk around, get out your flashlight and turn a little knob.
E50 has some similar drawbacks, such as having to open a screen for the transposer, no dedicated fade-in/out without programming, no break/fills, little bitty touch screen for octave up and down, etc.
So far nothing is perfect.
Regarding the positioning of the style control buttons on Audya. For me they should be on the left. I asked AJ about this, and he said they wanted to put them on the left, but that would mean putting sliders in the middle. They would have to compromise the length of the sliders' throw to do that, or make the entire case bigger.
He explained it better but that's the gist of it. The Audya does incorporate many ways to change variations, use fills, breaks intros and ending without touching the buttons. You can do it with footswitchs, pedals, dynamic touch, etc.
Probably the layout thing I liked least about the Audya was the positioning of the BP and Mod wheels. I use them a LOT, and there is obviously a pretty good reach involved, as opposed to merely lifting your fingers an inch.
Nothing is perfect.
DonM

You know, I imagine many people would like to see those changes, Don...I never thought of them as I don't do vocals.

I'd also like to see the buttons surrounding the screen in a contrasting color...they are a bit difficult to see in some situations.

Regarding the Audya's wheels...I use wheels a lot myself...primarily the pitch bender, and having them up on a panel was never a paragon of design in my book, on any instrument.

Ian

I think your problem with PDA's and the like is what is giving you this attitude, kalimero. If they operated 100% reliably, this wouldn't be an issue for you. Rest assured, the G70 screen simply WORKS. If I touch it, I need NO confirmation. It just works...

Once you get past this, you may have less trepidation approaching a touch screen on an arranger. Having admitted that you haven't actually USED a keyboard with a touch screen, perhaps you really ought to try one out for a while before you get rigid in your opinion?

BTW, the G70 is NOT a VA76... Over 90% of regular arranger PLAYING operation is done with real buttons, sliders and footswitches, etc.. The touch screen is primarily a 'selection' tool, and editing and programming device. Most of which you don't really use much while playing. It's the best of BOTH worlds, IMO...

If you use a touch screen just make sure you keep a "bundle" of soft cleaning cloths near you at all times.

Especially if you have a propensity to eat greasy food while you tinker on the keyboard. Got that Fran?

All the best, Mike

PS: Why do we always seem to pick on Fran?

Nice guy, not a bad singer (except in chas's opinion I reckon.. ) >> You got me laughing out loud and uncontrollably with the quip about the keyboard shutting down chas... lol. You might want to think about going on tour as a stand up comedian. You got my vote. lol..

Seriously.. I mean.. lol.. I'm sorry Fran.. I got caught up in the moment. Blame it on chas. We love you; really we do. Somehow you just seem to make such a great little punching bag for some strange reason. Do you think any of the blame lies squarely on your overly muscular shoulders Fran?? Just kidding.. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img]

Back to business... Until they improve the technology of touch screens on keyboards and they come with non smear LCD's then.. maybe. But don't hold your breath.

Grease and sweat is easier to clean off a nice big touchscreen than from down the sides of a bunch of buttons. In fact, sweat and dirt getting into buttons' mechanisms is one of the primary contributors to button failure and unreliability.

And yes, I have a nice soft cloth in my keyboard case that I wipe down the screen every night, and cover the screen with during transit. Hardly an onerous task...

Hand sanitizer works great for getting and keeping sweat and grease off your hands.

I always carry a small bottle of "Purell" with me...it's also handy (pun intended) for keeping away germs and bacteria.

Buttons, keys, and yes, even touchscreens, stay clean.

Ian

That's fine up in the frozen North, Ian, but down here in the swampy South, hand sanitizer before you play won't stop you from sweating up a storm WHILE you play!

But yes, washing your hands before you play, especially after setup, will go a LONG way to keeping your axe clean and problem-free... Along with good cases, and plastic (NOT cloth) covers for your keyboards, it's the best way to ensure that, if you WANT to get ten years out of your favorite arranger, you can

Diki,

Let's just clarify, I am not against touch-screen, but just want to emphasize that for on-stage using buttons is far more reliable (and ergonomic) then using touch-screens.

It is true, of course, that touch screen equipped keyboards have advantage for both manufacturers (because of cutting cost compared to adding more buttons or sliders) and for users (for set-up purposes, i.e. when not using on stage, because all relevant controls can be on one place, and navigation is more natural). Also, touch-screen combined with properly organized GUI & work flow philosophy are more user friendly especially in terms of learning to use new equipment, because You don't have to search for the button You need to press, or use one button for different context.

But, buttons (and other mechanic controls) also have their own advantages as well.

Reliability is one of them ('the must' for on-stage use), I don't know about G-70 screen, but my experience involves both consumer products, and professional (heavy-duty) products as well, and I still haven't seen a single touch-screen reliable as good mechanical button.

Also mechanical sliders (although quite expensive and sensitive on dusty environment) are incomparable to on-screen sliders [on the stage of course :-)]

Buttons are not dependent on lightning condition and not as fragile as (touch) screens. They can 'suffer more abuse', and consequently, when you remember all the buttons pressing sequences needed for some action, You can do it faster then with touch-screen.

To summarize, it would be great to have keyboard with all the buttons and sliders for on-stage performance, and touch screen with good GUI & work-flow philosophy for easy set-up and programming.

P.S. I don't mind using touch-screens, but for certain things, buttons seems more appropriate. Maybe I am just 'tactile' kind of person :-), that might be the reason why I still use good old (13 years) IBM keyboard on my PC, I can hear it, I can feel it, and never miss a key (3270 terminal keyboards were not compatible, and a bit too more 'feed-back-y' for my taste).

;-)


[This message has been edited by kalimero (edited 01-30-2009).]

While it's true that I do sometimes kid Fran, I assure you that it's done with the utmost affection..........sort of.



chas

Ian,
On the PA2XPO, you use the joystick to effectively do the DSP variation (Leslie speed and many other things) as standatd, but you can also program all those things to any other controler (foot switches's etc) like on the Yamaha.

As far as the touch screen...I never need to touch it while playing...only buttons. It is used as it should be for setup, and other programming tyle operations.

Don't need tactile feedback , as we (I) don't use it in playing (very seldom would be needed)

I would not have said this after having it only a couple monthes...but now that I have had it for 10 monthes...I would not trade it for anythink currently available. The OS is fantastic. I am now creating my own sounds from other mfg's samples, and doing my own song specific styles. The facilities to do all that are superb. 256 MB of user sample memory is really grat to have.

Just today I made my own heavy duty Bari Sax and it will shake the walls, just like the one they use in Tower of Power!

Lee

I'm tickled you like the Korg, Lee...it is nice to see someone else that is pleased with their arranger.

I wish I could try one out, but they aren't sold here, and I may not be on the road again until May or June...there may be a dealer who carries them in one of the centers I'll be visiting....I hope.

The reason I'm struck on the S900 is that I'd rather not invest a lot into a keyboard I'll be only keeping for a few years,...I like having the latest technology, and, besides, these mid-range instruments are far above what they were several years ago...they can be used by a pro as easily as the TOTL arrangers.

To get around the rotary fast and slow switch being on the right, I program two organ sounds in the registration...one with slow Leslie, one with fast...or, I use a footswitch.

I'm lucky not to need 76 keys...saves me money, I have a more compact instrument, the wheels are closer, and it's lighter.

I only use an arranger to play LH chords and RH melody and I love playing that way...it is so different from playing solo piano...it's almost like a vacation.

But, I must say, Korg seems to have a much more interesting 76 note arranger than Roland...now, if I can only get to try one.

Ian