You are definitely a better man than me, Ian

I don't expect to get comfortable with ANYTHING new in just a week or so! Took me a year to get used to the DX7's programming...

I definitely have issues with the PLACEMENT of a few buttons (Fill Rit. is a bit small, and the Part transpose buttons are in the middle of the screen, rather than at the bottom - that's the only function I would prefer physical buttons for) but their activation is 100% reliable.

I sympathize with the visually impaired (heck, my own eyesight ain't what it used to be!) but can't really see round the issue, and am loathe to use Yamaha's system, which requires a LOT more button pushes to call up all the different screens. You know me... I'm playing with both hands - I haven't got time for much screen navigation while I play!

In this case, with the buttons and screen layout, for the visually impaired I would definitely recommend the Yamaha's lack of touch screen. But for those still with sight, I can't tell you how easy the Roland screen is to use! It drives me crazy playing a FantomG or MotifXS now, as I keep hitting the damn screen and nothing happens! I can't WAIT for an arranger with a nice big 12" widescreen touch display (sort of like the Neko's)!

Well, I wouldn't agree that sensing the contact of the top of the finger and plastic of the display could be considered as 'feedback'.


Feedback implies returned information, so when You press a button, you get feedback (because you can sense button mechanism moving i.e. 'click') and You know that You pressed the button and haven't missed it. Also, if the buttons have good tactile-feedback You can be also be sure that You, not only pressed a button but also, performed desired action (because if You haven't pressed the button all the way down, You will not feel the 'click' and then You can be sure nothing will happen).

Another 'plus' of the buttons compared to touch-screens is the fact that you can feel the shape of the button (before pressing it) under Your finger, and if You missed it, You can quickly correct the position of the finger.

With touch-screen You can feel the contact of your finger and the screen, but You can only:

- hope that You hit the right area of the screen

- hope that the desired action will be performed

, because there is no feedback at all.


Because all of this, buttons are more reliable than touch-screen especially in the situation when You need to perform one or more operations really quickly.


Not to mention the fact that when your touch-screen 'dies' (and it is quite fragile) you cannot do much with the keyboard, and the cost of repair is expensive, while if the same happens to a button you can still use most of the operations (depending of the importance of the broken button), and the repair price is just fraction of the touch-screen price.


[This message has been edited by kalimero (edited 01-29-2009).]

Aw shucks Diki...I ain't no better man than you.

I'm just more humble...that's all.

My blind buddy could play circles around both of us (well, me for sure!)...especially on piano...but he got this thing in his craw about the arranger...partly my fault for bringing one over to his house one fateful day.

He's pretty darn good on the 8k now, but it's all home playing and he has no interest in gigging.

We've been best buddies for years, and I've learned an awful lot from him.

I took a while to grasp the DX7 as well...totally different from the analog I grew up with...I used to say learning the DX7 was like learning to play chess.

I used to spend hours analysing the way Bo Tomlyn managed to get his patches to sound the way they did...just like watching a chess master.

But I digress.

I'll probably be dragged kicking and screaming into the world of touch screens, if I'm ever denied the chance to use buttons...old ways die hard, just like they did when I went to the DX.

Ian

Put me down as a touch-screen guy. Once you get used to them, you never want to go back. I'm constantly touching the screen on my T2 and FantomG only to be rejected with a silent, icy stare. I feel like a sex offender.

With a good screen layout and properly sized 'virtual' buttons, touch-screens are the only way to go FOR ME. Of course they need to be supplemented with a few DEDICATED buttons, knobs, and sliders. Actually, I'm holding out for a voice-recognition system with lots of sophistication; like, if you sing off-key, the system shuts down (may not be the system for you, Fran ).

In the end, it comes down to what you get used to. Still, I wouldn't mind some real drawbars on my C1; old habits are hard to break.

chas

I hate to disagree, here (everyone has their preferences), but, let's compare this to buttons...

If you don't LOOK at the buttons (and there are a lot of them, if you don't have buttons on a touch screen), it is JUST as easy to screw up and hit the wrong one. And sorry, but simply touching the screen is 100% reliable. In other words, if you can FEEL (there's that tactile sensation for you ) the screen, you HAVE activated the function... unlike a button where you can hit it, but maybe not hard enough. In fact, it's the BUTTON that is the less reliable function, requiring a defined 'click' to let you know it has activated. No need whatsoever for this on a touch screen. Simply touch the screen in the right place, at ANY hardness whatever, and the function activates.

As I said, I have had trepidations when I first started using touch screens (on my Triton Classic) which were born out by how less sensitive that one was. But my G70 is an entirely different beast, not only faster and more (100%) reliable on the screen, but colored and easy to spot important areas.

And sorry, but a few damaged buttons (even ONE) can bring a non touch screen arranger to it's knees. That one's a push, IMO.

There is a few weeks of getting used to it, then, I'm sorry, but you don't want to look back...

Simple question, everybody; How many that HAVE a modern color touch screen, used for quite a while (no 2 week tryouts, please!), would prefer to go back to buttons?

Not too many, would be my guess...

And let us not forget...the touchscreen can speak back to you..if you desire...it can beep quietly when you make a selection on the touch screen...

Options on the G70..

I'm not convinced...I find using buttons far more convenient...and thankfully Yamaha still uses them.

Ian

Diki,

There's no need to hate if You dissagree, after all, that's what the forums are for (among other things). :-)

My turn to dissagree now. ;-)

If You ever saw somene who properly learned typing then You know for sure that You don't need to see the buttons in order to be able to type very fast (faster then those who 'search every letter on a keyboard'). I have yet to see somene doing the same thing on touch-screen (or sensor keyboard which is quite similar).

When You use Your keyboard for a some time, You remember position of the buttons, and You can use them without loking for them with Your eyes (afeter all, You are probably playing the keyboard without watching Your hands).

As for the tactile sensation, it is not the same es tactile feedback, the first one gives You just information that You touched something, while feedback gives You information that You performed action. Of course, there are different kind of buttons, and lower quality ones are usually without feedback (using plastic foil instead of mechanic parts), but buttons with good mechanics gives You exact information wheather you performed action or not.

For a touch screen it would be great to have some feedback system like vibrating device, that would trigger when You press a key (silent because audible systems, like the one Fran mentioned, have no use when playing loud music).

As for the reliability of touch-screens, I haven't use any on keyboard, but from expirience with other devices (PDA, notebook, mobile, POS terminal) I know for sure, that touch of the screen doesn't equals with performing action.

[This message has been edited by kalimero (edited 01-30-2009).]

kalimero,

Diki performs on a beach and is surrounded by lovely women in bikinis...the last thing he's looking at while he's playing is his hands.

Ian,
The buttons are great for OPERATIONS...however the touch screen is super for setup/programming etc...one good example is entering text for naming things etc. On my PA2XPRO, you touch the item and a popup keyboard comes up..full alphanumeric and special characters. Super nice..instead of pushing all those buttons over & over untill you get the chatacter you want (in this day & age that is very poor).

When writing your own styles, creating your own sounds, sampling, editing MIDI sequencer files etc. the touch screen is the very best.

Also, when I am playing I do not need the touch screen function rarely...it's all with the buttons.

Lee