Ok all, this may be a provocative question here and I may get various different opinions. It may really have been asked before but it's easiest to ask here and now.

As a stand point of all the most recent arranger boards (keep in mind the usability to someone playing the board without sight), which of them has been found to have the most realistic voicing and styles? Many of you have tried most on the market currently, but I'm asking for an objective opinion.

This opinions should be based on the reactions you have received from your audiences. Of the boards you have tried, which one gave you the feeling that your audience really felt there was a true to life sounding band and not just a bunch of instruments being played together at the same time? Which board gave the most realism in it's styles without going in and tweaking the hell out of each?

Yes Tyros 2 and 3 are very usable, but are the styles better and is it more realistic in a live situation?

G-70, E-60 - though the touch screen is a hinderance, my discussion with Fran back in December clued me to thinking it may be usable by someone without sight, but realism better than other options?

Korgs touch screens are way out of question here since no logical method but Realism?

And then there's the Ketron SD and the new board coming out. Yes, there is interest by AJ to make it accessible, but thoughts of its' realism against the others?

Then again, is there any board which has pc based acccessible editors which can be used to make those pesky tweeks to fine tune things to get that sound? Even though software is available from some of the manufactureres, it usually is not usable by assistive technology (screen readers). Any third party editors for any of these boards like there are for the Motif boards?

Yes, I could buy each board and try it out, but having capital to do so is a problem so need to really focus on one overall and work with it from that point. Most of these boards are not available locally in the South Florida area - well at least not in the West Palm area.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Vince

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Vince Mistretta

[This message has been edited by vin5451 (edited 01-31-2009).]

As far as realism and LIVE sound, my personal choices are, in order:
Ketron Audya
Ketron S Series
Roland G and E series
Yamaha Tyros 3

Individual sounds are very subjective. Yamaha has some great guitar and sax voices and the keyboard can add nuances for you.
Ketron excels at natural sounds, particularly drums and bass. Really strong in Country/Western and old-time Rock N Roll.
Roland has many great features and sounds.

I had a stinker of a Korg PA80, so I can't be objective about it. I hated it for lack of styles, hard to use interface, especially when loading styles, and dull sound. I'm sure it's better now with the Os upgrades.

I truly feel for a blind person that Ketron would be well suited, because they have so many dedicated buttons and sliders.

Hope this helps, it's only my opinion after playing these things since they were invented.
DonM www.donmasonmusic.com

I really can`t comment on anything other than Yamaha.

But I will say that if there is something about a sound or style you don`t like , with a Yamaha you can always rebuild the sound or style to suit your needs.

It is a very flexible OS , but not very Mac friendly !!   

Take care !!

Gary 

Don I think you meant PA800 correct?

Correct, the PA80 I had was very good actually.
The 800 must have been a lemon. It was the first one sold in the US, or so I was told.
Shoulda waited.
DonM

1.Tyros3
2. ??
3. ??
4. ??
5.Korg Pa2x
6.Audya
7.Roland E80/G79

;-) Impuls :-)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DonM:
[B]Correct, the PA80 I had was very good actually.

I do know of one blind musician using a PA80 and found the layout very close to the Tyros and Technics.

Right now I am considering the G-70 even though the touch screen issues, but still have my concerns about it's realism. This new Ketron board does seem interesting enough.

It would be so much easier if the boards were available locally to try out instead of buying, then returning and hopefully you don't have to pay a restock charge or if you find a board on here or EBay where you can purchase it on contingency to try it out.


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Vince Mistretta

In your particular situation...

I would just go get a T3,
I don't think you would be dissappointed (or a used T2 if cost is an issue for you)

IMHO,
Lee

Even blind people can listen to online demos and decide for themselves which sounds most real. I should know, I'm blind, in fact, I'm on the midimag list with you. But why ask people about real sounds? Ask about features, usability, anything but sound. If person 1 thinks Roland is most real, and person 2 thinks Yamaha is most real, and 3 thinks Ketron is most real, what have you learned? Besides that, nobody has the most real everything. So Roland has the most real piano sound, but Yamaha has more real guitars, and Ketron has more real drums. But other people will disagree with that assessment. Plus, I've had some first hand experience here with how well people can distinguish what is real and what isn't, so that's one area I know better than to get others' opinions. I just don't think you're gonna have much luck getting actual useful help.

Rory

[This message has been edited by FAEbGBD (edited 01-30-2009).]

one, two, Cha Cha Cha

dump out the urinals.....
theres a Pissin contest a brewin'

That word "BEST" does it every time!

Its an Arranger. You buy it for Arrangements and styles. Yamaha has the most support in that regard. Thousands of styles available.

Voices are subjective, editing is easy if you know whatever keyboard one is using.

The Tyros is the Best, the most supported,has fanatical customer support, the most available, has an expandable voice set, Up to date re memory schemes USB 2, ATA off the shelf drive (apparently any size as a friend just dropped a $55 160Gig notebook drive in his T2 and it sees all of it), and has the most Styles available which I believe is the most important thing in an Arranger...Support, technical. customer, and software. Yamaha is Everywhere as well. Any Yamaha Piano or MI dealer can help you.

Disclaimer. I sell the Yamaha and Korg and have no experience with Roland's G70 and Ketron sounds good but local support is hard to find so I did not consider it. I owned a PA2x and sold it and bought the T3. Its a keeper. I use it solely for song writing via a DAW.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 01-31-2009).]

Naw, everyone is open to their opinions and that's why I asked the question. I want real life opinions from you guys. You all use these boards regularly. Keep in mind Demos on the web are subjective and can be enhanced in every way imaginable to make the product desirable.

I'm only asking to take the laws of averages here and making a final decision from that stand point.

As far as features, I read about the features on all these boards. I think I know almost as much of the features as someone who actually uses them. I do my research.

I have edited my original post to have a better idea of where I'm going with this post. Yes,I can listen to demos, (and I have on all boards) but you can't get the reaction of audiences from demos.

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Vince Mistretta

[This message has been edited by vin5451 (edited 01-31-2009).]

I've got to agree that you are asking a question which ONLY YOU can answer... You can go to the manufacturer sites, and listen to the best it can be played (mostly!), tweaked and polished to perfection.

Listen to all four (Y, K R & Ktron) and decide for YOURSELF what sounds the most real. Then go to the user sites, and listen to a bunch of user demos. How real do THEY make it? Now, you've got a pretty good idea...

But, be careful. You are actually deciding which ones sound LESS fake, not MORE real Things are getting better, but I still don't think we've got to the point where anyone would ever be totally fooled. Perhaps the Audya gets closer in the rhythm section, but it's still a long way from completely convincing anyone it's REAL....

Ditto.

Is anyone else finding this hackneyed phrase as annoying as I do. Seems like there are a few people that are just standing around waiting to 'plug it in' at every opportunity. Every discussion that evokes a variety of opinion isn't necessarily a 'pissin' contest'. It's like someone dropping a crumb on the floor and someone yells out 'food fight!'. At the very least, come up with a new phrase. I hate Cha Cha anyway.

Grumpy in Atlanta,

chas

I think the phrase may be a secret code among those afflicted with cranial-rectal inversion disorder.

Ian

hey Grumpy.....

The famous Joe Ayala's coined phrase
"One Two Cha Cha Cha" is definitly the cure all for all Pissin' contests & as you know here is the birthplace of them all.....it's like a "Refresh Button" that resets thinking and makes people sit back & say .....WHAT?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cha-cha-cha_(dance)

Right hand sound
1/ Tyros 3 (Audya I hope)
2/ Tyros 2
3/ PA2X
4/.....
5/.......
6/ G70 way after

Arranger side


1/ PA2X (Audya I hope)
2/ Tyros 3
3/ Tyros 2
4/ G70
Have had them all,not the Audya.Hope it will
come to Sweden soon.I`ll buy it right away.
The best KB to manover...T3 and PA2X.
The Audya PA2X G70 has 76 keys...five stars.
All IMO //Tryggve

Strange...it doesn't seem to be effective here on SZ...perhaps it's more apposite on the Latin American Dance forums.

Oh Ian you are sooooooo wrong my northern buddy...... if it wasn't effective then why are we talking about it, don't take everything so literaly....read between the lines

If you mean that it hijacked this thread...perhaps you are right.

But any silly phrase will do that pretty easily...why not mix them up and give me, Grumpy, and the others who are tired of it at least something more interesting or humorous to read.

Perhaps a joke, or a short dissertation on the uses of a chicken hat or even a brief treatise on why Capital punishment would be more effective as a preventive measure if it were administered prior to the crime.

Anything but One Two Cha Cha Cha...it's getting so old it's become haunted.

Show me ONE thread that it stopped one, then...

Or quit foolin' yourself. It is simply a way of interjecting yourself in something when you have nothing substantive to say

See Diki its working.......your thinking about it also ...Honestly most of your dribble bores me to death have to skim thru it if at all most of the time .....
"One, Two, Cha Cha Cha" .. It's like a break button on the keyboard....it makes you sit up straight ......Joe Ayala was spot on when he said "One, Two, Cha Cha Cha"
it fits like a glove.


[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 01-31-2009).]

AMEN.

It wasn't meant to stop anything but to make people realize how stupid the direction of the thread is going....unless you didnt realize it.......which happens most of the time....I despise Mr Know it alls.

Your presence on the thread at all usually demonstrates THAT

Wasn't really that effective now, was it?

The only time it gets any notice is when we discuss what it is supposed to mean...now that we all know it means nothing, it will be even less effective.

Don't keep your fans waiting...have a good gig, and keep your stick on the ice.

ok Vin so you are getting a Tyros right?

Like I said

One, Two, Cha Cha Cha

Honestly, I already have a Tyros 1 I bought from one of the members here. It's definitely lacking in the richness I want in a live system. Yes, I've listened to the demos of T2 and T3 but had hoped to find any reasonable answers from you guys on live performance. I can tell you it won't be a T3 since four grand won't come out of my pocket. If the Audia is going to be even higher, that breaks that out of the race too.

I've even considered doing OMB with a Motif XS to at least get the super articulation2.. The biggest delemma is what many of you have complained about, the 76 key versions - I'd rather 76 key and we all know which ones have that configuration.

As far as averages from the few real answers I have received through this Pissing Contest, yes T3 shines, but yet does it really shine in a live situation??? Does the audience enjoy hearing you play a T3 rather than one which has better live patches for live situations??

The audience is going to be FAR more into what YOU play, than what you play it ON...

We have all seen great players play up a storm on a POS Casio or the like... and listened to embarrassingly awful renditions on TOTL arrangers

Any of the top arrangers will do a great job for you. Now YOU have to do a great job for the audience (because the arranger isn't going to do it without your help!)...

The only answer you are ever likely to get here is 'Play what I play'. EVERYONE thinks they made the perfect choice (or they wouldn't have bought it ). But somehow, we still end up with a great variety of choice. What does this tell you..?

That you should make your OWN mind up about this...

Your sound system & how you EQ it is a big part of you "live " Sound....not the keyboard....any Tyros or S unit will be very effective on stage for sure...its all about HOW YOU PLAY it....don't blame your keyboard.....and further more listen to Diki

Thanks guys for bringing this back to the topic at hand. Yes, I agree that technique, what you play and the sound system; the way it's eq'd and what is used are major factors of the sound. And yes, the audience comes to see you play not to hear what device you play it on. And, yes, it is ultimately my decision on what will meet my needs and what I can afford to work with.

The question was to factor all these into play and take it at stride to work a final decision on which device to upgrade to out of those currently available and focus my technique and talent on working around the shortfalls of that selection with the inaccessibility issues pertaining to that board; working through a new board takes time. Of course it would be great if I could get my hands on any of them to work with and try without purchasing to make that final decision, but that's not possible.

Honestly, the outcome of this thread has helped me make a decision that the board I did want to try working with was not as great to use as others have thought it to be not as true as the main talk of this forum the T3 and T2, seemed to be not even close. What sparked this idea was a post I found on another thread finding the SD5 more outstanding to the audience than a g-70 or Tyros. Looking through other threads, I found that there has been a recent sell off of T3s and such to purchase the SD5 and the upcoming Audia because of it's more robust Drums and Bass. Even though the Audia is not out yet, it did come in a very close second here, but since we don't know any price factor yet, well... The SD5 still came out lower than any of the newer Ts.

So, yes, deciding on a board will stay with Yamaha and the Ts whether T2 or T3 even though I'd rather use a 76-key board. I didn't want to sacrifice sound realism just because of a 76key board. If the focus of the answers were more towards another board, then I would have tried to work with that board and live with it.

Once again, I thank all who have given me your opinions on which boards do sound better and I appreciate your cander on the matter.

You cant go wrong with Yamaha good luck to you!! Keep uas posted on you experiences.

Well, actually, I've had 3 Yami boards in my time and the T1 had the worst piano patch I had heard yet. My S90 sounded much better with that respect.

Yes, the logical upgrade would be to the T3 and I do find that piano much richer that that on the T1, but TT2 is not as much change on that particular patch.

If I could sell off my T1 and S90 quickly, I could hop on AJ's special on the T3.

My idea of OMB with an XS7 is just too cumbersome since it's a pain to change styles betwithin a set, unless someone knows a way around that. Right now I'm controlling my T1 with my K2600X to get the expanded keyboard, but changing functions is a bit hairy sgoing from board to board for a non-sighted situation. I wish, like the rest of you, Yami would come out with that 76 key version.

Vin,
IMHO, With what you have said...try out a Korg PA2XPRO or PA800.

Great live sound and the great features for live performance..
Maybe you like, maybe not...but before you decide you should try one out for a few hours.

Lee

Lee...Touch screens...not good for blinks.

However, if a store in my area did carry any of these boards, I would try them. They only carry synth boards and low end arrangers like S900 or Casio. Yes, even GC.

The only possible touch screen which does have some potential for blink use is the Roland G70 and E series and can't get my hands on either to even try. I've been told the Korgs just don't have any real logic to their screen format to where it could be templated for use by someone by me. Believe me Korg has been contacted by many of us about this but they won't budge on the matter.

That's why I put this post together to see if the Roland was felt to be in any part good for the live shot and it really fell low on this list. My real focus was Tyros 2 or 3 and the Rolands. Tyros has been the second choice due to the 61 key issue.

Thanks for the suggestion and if I ever do come across any of the Korg boards, I will try them out.

Correctomundo. Donny the Wise speaks from many years of experience


[This message has been edited by ianmcnll (edited 02-01-2009).]

I would disagree with some other's low estimate of the Roland's. As I said, everyone has different priorities. I am extremely happy with the realism of my Roland G70. It's piano is without par (which isn't JUST my opinion, Ian ), it's drums are perhaps only a hair behind Ketron, and it doesn't need audio loops (which are far less customizable or available in a wide variety of styles) to achieve it. It's B3 sim is up there with some dedicated B3 clones, strings and brass are excellent, synth sounds are gorgeous, saxes are as good as anything with perhaps the exception of Yamaha's SA voices.

In fact, my only opinion of a weak spot would be it's guitars, which are still good for an arranger, but not as realistic (in style parts) as the Mega Voices of Yamaha or Korg's Guitar Mode. But I generally play with a guitarist, so that point for me is moot.

But I play in real full bands a lot of the time (still on my G70) and it's sounds keep those guys as happy as my K2500 or Triton ever did. If you want to know if an arranger sounds live, I say play it IN a live band!

My entire decision about whether to buy an arranger is based on whether I can get the same feeling playing with it that I do with a live rhythm section. I need the drums to be dynamic, crisp and punchy. I'm not looking for a polished 'studio' sound. I want SLAM! The drums in the Roland's come almost in their entirety (save some legacy kits and electronica sounds) from their TD series drum modules designed by and FOR real drummers. That, for me, is a VERY telling point.

For this liveness, I am prepared to give up some of the more sophisticated features on other arrangers. If it doesn't convince me that I've got a real drummer, what point is all the bells and whistles?

So, anyway, before you take anyone else's opinion to heart too much (which I completely counsel against), allow me to present a different opinion about Roland's. I think they sound VERY live, in all but the guitar department, and that is still not bad at all...

I still believe, instead of asking opinion, you should listen to every demo, factory AND user, that you can get your hands on. And decide for YOURSELF whether any of the top arrangers are what you want.

After all, it is YOU and not them that is going to have to play it...

And that's what I have done to come to this point. I think in the past two months I have listened to every demo, youtube video and recording I could find on the net on all these boards coming to this final roundup, but felt I wasn't getting the full picture after not hearing them in a live situation.

I assume you are using version 2.0 or higher of the OS on the G70 and you still find the guitars a bit weak. I do find G70 guitars close in listening to them in the demos I have found. That was with Guitar mode though and the guitars in the normal voices were weak in the mix. I do agree with you, even though I haven't had my hands on any of these boards, after listening to what I have, the G70 does have some good potential to be an all around good board for arranger and synth and it does have 76keys.

Don't get me wrong, T2/T3 sound great to me too. They have great potential with SA/SA2 for great recordings and live situations. This is why both are on top of my list with the Roland.

Hey Vin,
One small detail. If you consider the Motif XS...it DOES NOT have Super Articulation 2.
The expanded articularion it has is not the same as Tyros 3 SA or SA 2.

Lee

Thanks for the clarification. I'll keep that in mind.