Well...I thinh here we have lost the point of view..
IF you are looking for the HiFi sounds styles perfection ( I dont mean about the midi tracks structure)then the MS ( I think) is not the right arranger for this features.

How Spalding and Diki sayd before, the MS is a softsynth based workstation and NOT a ROM system.
With a standard ROM system that include the right fixed sounds and engine ( like the Yamaha, Roland, Korg...) they are able to develope amazing styles and really good volumes levelled that seem like playig one Stereo HiFi.
Do NOT cray then if you need a more powered drumkits, boost Bass or Audio loops, because sometime this fixed ROM system keybard have some limitation.
OF course they can offer the 64Mb, 256Mb, 1000Mb of sampler, but you have to choose a compromise, slow system for loading the data in Ram before ready to play and also data format/quality.
Said that, in the ROM system the all sounds are generated from one DSP, with a typical one Stereo out, where then is really simple control the global volumes tracks and then you get a nice global sounds out.

Still with the EMC Styles converter is not possible get a true 1 to 1 brand conversion, why? because sounds from one ROM system to another are different and can NOT be full 100% compatible and mixed too.

With the MS softsynth this is more complicated, because the standard GM format is made in GIG sounds and are totally different as a ROM based system. ( example, try to play one Yamaha XG format midifile in one keyboard and you will hear here the difference too, a total sounds confusion)

Start to play/editing one midi styles on MS give a lot of possibility, for each track to load one different GIGA sounds or to use some ASIO host VST engines for the same style.
the Audio out result is totally different and MORE different souds engines you open, more is complex to control the global volumes.

On Ms you have to choose with taste of sounds to use: If yu are looking for the HiFi sounds, choose the ROM system, If you are looking for a totally different powered sounds ( but more hard to control all in realtime)then can be the MS.

If you have happy with just a couple of new sounds offered on a new keyboard and you dont care the loading time for a new simple sounds, then choose again one ROM system.

If you still not happy like the new "Grand pianos" that the ROM system offer, on MS you are able to loading the all sounds that you like, from GIGA format to VST//ASIO format. Press one MS keys function and PLAY.

Do still NOT like the MS sounds that we offer for free? http://sonart.cc/shop/product_info.php?products_id=210
here give a lot of sounds for Free Or make a deal: http://sonart.cc/shop/product_info.php?products_id=122
79.99USD and for 2 years you are able to download for FREE the all sounds, loops library.. that they continue offer.
With the same money from yamaha you can buy just a couple of new style...

This mean Open system, BUt if you still are looking for a HiFi system, softsynth is the wrong keyboard, you have to choose the compromise.

Anyway, IF you don't like the MS styles, then you can use the MS like the Roland Fantom G, the concept is the same.
Qranger is a Audio-midi SEQ, record unlimited audio -midi tracks, record your Voice, Guitars parts.... and play over it with the new GIGA /ASIO/VST sounds.
Qranger under SEQ mode, still can have the 32 pattern loop pointer and make the global song transpose by +/- keys OR by chords changes!
Same way we use the Qranger for the Midifiles players, because we can insert the 32 marker loop pointer and switch in realtime like the arranger, the all parts of the midifile, + the global transpose of course.

About Frank new MS:
Frank need ONLY to upgrade his old 32bit MS, with a new AM2 Mainboard, Dualcore CPU and SATA2 HD or the new OS 3 Kubuntu can not be installed, is NOT compatible.
After this PC hardware upgrade, Frank can have the last same OS system and features that you saw on the videos demos.
This PC upgrade will cost for sure LESS than upgrade one T2 to a T3 and the live continue again...

have now understand the MS point?
Always...enjoy what you play.

[This message has been edited by LIONSTRACS (edited 02-14-2009).]

O K hear is the person who the MS should be marketed to.
Some one like me who uses VST’s audio loops in a studio setting to right songs. That same person also play live at gigs. That person also uses an arranger. That person does not want to use a lap top on stage to try and get every thing connected. That person also wants to perform original songs and styles at live gigs with the VSTs used in the recording.

The on board styles is not the important part of the keyboard. I along with a lot of other persons I know don’t by an arranger for the onboard styles.
Now what the MS offers is that all of that is integrated on one machine.
The MS is for persons who want to be creative not just a glorified Karaoke player. Some persons make style making to be rocket science. I guess if you are trying to sound like a Yamaha style perhaps. But one of the lesser known secrets about style making is that you can make them suited to your style of playing. You see if I use an on board style, I am saying I have to play based on what the manufacturer has in the style. Where as if I make my own style, I can make it to where it would be best for my playing and performance style. For example, I do not make my style too complex with lots of busy tracks. I make it to where I could play at lease 10 songs on one style. I like to have the keyboard split where I would have 2 sounds available in the right and one sound or a stack of sounds in the left (hence the need for 76 keys).
So it would take an open mind to understand the MS. But if you are always wanting the MS to be a T3 P2x or G70 closed system, then you just would not grasp the concept.

The major problem MS and other Italian keyboard companies have is marketing. They are terrible at Marketing.

And making demos...

'The on board styles is not the important part of the keyboard. I along with a lot of other persons I know don’t by an arranger for the onboard styles. '

And theres the problem. I know that some eastern europeans customers are very much into sampling their own instruments and programming their own styles because there is a shortgae of these styles and sounds in conventional arrangers. But certainly in the west the vast majority of arranger customers would not have a clue about sampling or creating their own sounds or styles . They ACTUALLY BUY AN ARRANGER BECAUSE THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN DONE FOR THEM. And it has nothing to do with their lack of imagaination . They simply either dont have the skill set or the inclination to develope them to make their own styles. With the other manufacturs of arrangers , thats not an issue as they UNDERSTAND THE MARKET THEY ARE SELLING TO and provide the styles and sounds with the arranger complete.

There was a thread a few months ago where people expressed a genuine interst in buying the mediastaion becaise it was being sold at just 1000 euro's. It was a special ofer. No one ever came back to say that they were happy with their purchase or even that the purchase went through.
http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/018202.html

You said 'The major problem MS and other Italian keyboard companies have is marketing. They are terrible at Marketing. '

You hit the nail on the head my friend ! But marketing is not just about getting the message out about your product so that the market understands what the product can do, its essentially about understanding what the market wants and giving them what they want in a manner that they will easily uinderstand and happily purchase. Dom does it the other way round. HE decides what the market SHOULD want ( thats guys like me) and then gets frustrated when the market does not respond favourably to WHAT HE THINKS THEY SHOULD WANT AND HAVE. Then he provides an update that he thinks should be included on the mediastation and tries to convince the market that this makes the product even more attractive.And so on... Funnily enough thats the premise of buying the Mediastaion... that you wont be forced to buy what the other manufacturers tell you you should have . What do you think is slightly ironic about that reasoning ?.....:-)

Liontracs ...Your explanation above gives an excellent example of the complexities of having a keyboard like the meiastation as an arranger. If buyers want to buy an arranger that out of the box sounds like a korg, yamaha, roland arranger then the MS is unlikely to meet their needs. You are so very very right. Unfortunately you are for the most part talking to the wrong customer by your own definition on this forum...

Korg , Yamaha etc dont just dream up the features that their products have ! They are not just lucky that the features they 'force' on the buying public just happen to be the features that the market are lapping up hence the success of yamaha etc. They spend probably hundreds of thousand of dollars researching what they feel the market will go for and then provide it in the most suitable manner in their keyboards.

I am sure there must be other arranger forums where people like To the Genesys or Ensnare you or Fran frequent. If there are give Dom a helping hand somebod and point him to them .Perhaps Dom would have more luck there ?


[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-15-2009).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-15-2009).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-15-2009).]

[This message has been edited by spalding (edited 02-15-2009).]

I am not prepared to suffer a lousy arranger, to get WS and loop player functions. Plenty of WS's that already do that. Arps, loops, sync'd up, cutting edge sounds...

But I use an arranger. So I need THAT to sound great first. THEN I can appreciate all the other goodies. But if the arranger sucks, it kind of makes the rest of the goodies not so good.

Dom has his head in a very dark place if he thinks that suddenly, after 20 or 30 years of an arranger providing styles for the player to use, and sounds that go together with them, the vast majority of arranger players around the world are going to start to write their own. Balkan and middle eastern users MIGHT develop their own styles, but I GUARANTEE that, when they have to play Western music, they use the styles that came with their arranger... You don't see much in the way of middle eastern developed western styles, do you?

And, I'm sorry, but even Dom doesn't see it that way... or he wouldn't develop ANY styles and sounds for it. Just sell it empty, and let the user do it ALL for themselves. So, I'm sorry, but that argument just doesn't hold water. No, the problem isn't that Dom doesn't think that the MS even NEEDS good styles and sounds... It's just that he can't afford to make them.

They are expensive. The soundset development and style development is possibly the most expensive thing he has to do. Write a few lines of code? Write a few tens of thousands of lines of code? He knows how to do THAT. But sampling a coherent soundset, and then develop styles for it that compete with the T3, PA2, or G70? Quite obviously, he himself cannot do it. And that means hiring someone (or several someones) that CAN. And that cost money. LOTS of it...

Making styles is HARD... or there would be a million of them out there for pennies, and they would all sound as good as the factory ROM styles. They don't. In fact, about the ONLY time you get to hear great new styles is when a new arranger gets released. Hell, they are so expensive, even the Big 3 don't make many of them except for a new arranger!

This is the dirty little secret of the MS... Sure, you COULD get it to sound great. IF you were the guy making factory styles for Yamaha or Korg, etc.. But how many user styles have you ever heard that sound even close to the quality of a ROM style? Bloody few, as far as I am concerned. I refuse to believe that middle eastern style makers are any better than western ones. Just that their music is so unfamiliar that I am unable to recognize how poor those styles are (and that there aren't any ROM styles in those genres to compare them to )

Yamaha don't sell the MoXS without any great arps and loops in it. Yamaha don't sell the T3 without great styles in it. But apparently, Dom thinks he can sell the MS without them. Just add your own... Trouble is, be REALISTIC about your chances of making a style as good as Yamaha's ROM styles (or any of the Big 3).

Look, it's simple. If you can make a piece of music on a WS, with no loops or arps, that could fool a LOT of people that they are listening to a real band, do all the drum parts, bass parts, keys, strings horns, then you possibly DO have the skills to make a decent style. Mind you, it's a lot harder making a style that can be used for a lot of different songs, that is useful to an arranger player, than one specific tune...

In other words, if you are already making top pro music production entirely by yourself, at close to the highest level, without using an arranger or production loops, then yes, you could make some great styles...

How many of those do we have here at SZ...

Crickets chirping

Dom, please... you still don't get the point... once and for all... all this technical blabber is USELESS in a music world where the only thing really matters is to MAKE GOOD MUSIC.
Listen... I'm an italian computer programmer, so I know about computer systems rather well, but I like also to play music at home just for my enjoyment. And I want good sounds coming out from what I play.
The first time I saw your website, and read about the MS, well... my first word was.. "wow... A linux system on a keyboard... real time streaming of sounds, VSTi... this thing should sound awesome..." but... after seeing all the videos and hearing all the demos of the MS I could find on the .net, my view changed drastically... Is it possible that in the world nobody could produce a good-sounding piece from this thing? What Diki says is real, if NOBODY EVER showed a good-sounding demo out of it, then probably there's something wrong.

Again these responses only validate my points.
If I just wanted to play I would have gotten a piano.
What I have in a keyboard is an electrical instrument that entails programming and setting up sounds and styles and that can and should allow me to sound like me and not some one else.
Lets face it, a keyboard (today’s WSs and arrangers) is perhaps one of the most complex and involved electrical instruments. To get the best out of it you have to be a good player (that is the first thing), you must understand midi and sound and music creation. Remember back in the day when we use to use 3 keyboards, 2 drum machines and have everything midied together? You not only had to no how to play but also you had to understand a complex midi system. That is just part of the electrical keyboard instrument. That is what would distinguish keyboard players from a DJ. If you are using your arranger correctly, you should never have to educate your audience and show them that you are not a DJ. It should be apparent that just by hearing you play that you are the one in control of the music; you have a lot to do with the live keyboard parts and the accompaniment.



And when I am talking about creating styles, I am not just talking about Eastern but Western ones also. Like I said before, if you are trying to make your styles to sound like a Yamaha factory style, then you are missing the point about style making. And in fact, that is what I am talking about when I say most people on this forum use their arranger as a glorified Karaoke machine.
A style is an auto accompaniment not a auto replacement.

The other point that a lot of persons seem to forget is that the MS is not just an arranger like T3 PA2x and G70, but it is also a WS that can record Audio so comparing the MS to the T3 and others demonstrates that most persons on this forum just do not understand much about the MS. Again, MS’s market is not nor should it be the persons who would use a T3 or G70 but ones who would use a Motif xs, Korg M3 and computer software like OMB and band in-a box.
I guess it is hard to competently critique something when you don’t understand what that thing is.

I would like to make an inquiry for
1) the whereabouts of the guy who was congratulated for getting a "new MS"
2) his lack of comments on the new MS

Fran is currently in the process of upgrading his older model MS to meet all new factory specs & features as we speak....when done it will be on par with today's MS models.....he is currently busy gigging but I'm sure will post his experiences & opinions asap.Definitly more to come...

MAybe a tought

Linux is an open system, that builds on a community...

If this is the true Linux Arranger, then the community should stand up and create those killer styles....

Only that way the MS will succeed, build and created by the community.

People that expect a Mediastation to do anything straight out of the box should stick with Yamaha. Then you know what you get with all its limitations.
People that want a tool to do "Incredible Things" with want an open system.... the results of the open system will far surpass that of the satndard T3 system, but it will require tons more effort.

Just make your choice.....