I love the T3 for what it does....Great styles, a handful of excellent voices, and very usable MIDI parts as well as a fantastic playback engine for my 2000 toontrack KAR collection. I just can't wrap myslef around its MIDI implementations and would rather use it a s a module and a MIDI Style generator
HOWEVER I still need a workstation to CREATE new material and adapt older material, not to mention a REAL MIDI keyboard and control surface for the DAW. I kicked around getting a Roland, but a few days with the Sonic Cell soured my on anything Fantom. Yamaha has the best sounds and the T# and Motiff can cover everything.. Move the RD700 to the wifes end of the Studio. The M3 is nice but Korg has Half the employee discount discount and the Yamaha is a lot easier to use. My computer will be happy. Yamaha requires we keep it a year before we sell it. Not hard to do.

Have you played the MoXS much yet, Kingfrog? I think you are going to be quite disappointed in it's implementation of SA sounds. They just don't seem nearly as playable as the T3's system...

I spent quite a bit of time on the MoXS6, and really liked quite a few things, but most of it was still the Mega arps for guitar and the loops (although I was devastated at how bad the loop cuing process was, an arranger is a million times easier to work), and the SA stuff left me fairly cold. After the T2, I was expecting MORE, not less...

Oh, and BTW, the Sonic Cell doesn't have a lot to do with the FantomG! You are comparing a cheap module to Roland's flagship. That's like comparing an MU100 with a MoXS (actually, you can't make any significant comparison because Yamaha have basically given up making down-market modules)...

I'd give the G a good workout before you dismiss it so lightly as an oversized Sonic Cell!

Did not I hear that Yamaha was going to make the Motif xs cost more come March of this year?

The XS is a NO mistake, still rules the Workstation world.

I like the sounds alright BUT I'm am not replacing the T3. I am replacing the RD700 the wife keeps taking to gigs.LOL (I need more keys)and The T3 is a MISERABLE controller for a DAW...MISERABLE Right 1 Right 2 Ugh.....It will be relegated to a scratch pad for songwriting, a Style Generator for pop songs for gigs, some of the best voices will be still used (like I did with modules I bought for three voices) I will use it when we get serious about doing a duo more than a few times a year.. I just can't use it like a WS and I really need that aspect. I was initially hoping the Korg would cover ALL those bases.

I have played on the Fantom at NAMM and GC and love the Sequencer and would really love to have a different manufacturer representation of sounds (foolishly thought the Soncic Cell would give me that, but I bought it used and will sell it back on Ebay and not take a 15% restocking beating) The Fantom does have a GREAT intuitive sequencer but I already have the DAW covered in that regard. The XS has 1Gig of audio recording/sampling as well. What I do like are those 6000 arps. How thy are used in four parts to generate a pattern is something I can get my head around more then trying to so the same using the T3 and the PC. And the EIGHT element voices. Anyone who has worked with VSTI Dimension Pro knows the capability of using THREE element sampled voices. The good thing about the arps on the Motif XS is that they are not frozen and unchangeable. The 8 knobs on the front can modify the ARP as far as swing, quantize value, strength, gate time, velocity., octave range, unmultiply (i.e., 50% speed, 200% speed, etc) and tempo are all controllable. Unlike the T3 which cannot be changed UNTIL the MIDI is in the DAW.


This guy explains it better than I.



Many comparisons give a slight edge to the Motif unless one is doing a lot of Hip Hop and loop based recording and needs to do all of it on the board and doesn't want to read a manual The Roland is extremely intuitive and has a better presentation.

THEN I have to consider the cost is 10% below Dealer cost as an employee (which is one of the reasons I took the job, I have purchased some high end guitars and gear on those discounts) We don;t carry Roland and I have to seriously ask myself if the Roland is worth over $1000 more,after fighting for a Frankie type discount off MAP on the G8.

I could get the XS7 and would be fine with 76 keys but the cost difference is not that much on a wholesale basis THEN I have to add the Firewire and MLan card on top of that. Since my router is in the Studio and the T3 is on the LAN, the Motif will also be on the LAN for sample loading from my wireless notebook. I sometimes sample cymbals and other percussive stuff using an H2 at the store and bring the SD cards home load them up in the notebook. I will be able to get Woman singing Ahss and oohs etc and use the LAN to load the Samples maybe from the store. A neat thing but certainly not a necessity,Yeah I'm a geek that way. I like technology and use it when available.

Another huge reason which may apply to both is the CONTROL SURFACE for my DAW. The integration with Cubase AI (Damm Yamaha for buying Steiniberg) is amazing. I hope it integrates with SONAR as well but I will give Cubase a run just because. Roland has Cakewalk......

So cost is a huge factor I will have both the T3 and XS8 for less than $5000 which is killer in anyone's book. I will finally have my WORKSTATION and the MIDI issues resolved with the T3 becoming a "module" and organ. Plus prices are going up a lot on the Motif in two weeks.....gotta jump now. Plus I can sell both boards (after the Yamaha agreed to year of ownership and and get most if not all the money back on both of them when the next models are released)

We are going to do that with the Bose System with two years left on the warranty, Sell it take the $700 beating and buy another system.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-15-2009).]

If I remember right a $300 increase in two weeks....Thats another reason I'm jumping now. Wholesale is going up as well. T3 and PSR900s up $100 each.



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-15-2009).]

yes, the price increase will happen on March 1 and you are also correct regarding the amount of the increases on the 3 products you mentioned



------------------
George Kaye
Kaye's Music Scene
Reseda, California
818-881-5566
www.kayesmusicscene.com

And rightly so.....two fantastic arrangers.....tells you somthing eh?

YEah but it speaks more to the Motif. Thast quite the jump. I'm guessing they have decided they are up to competing with the Fantom which costs $500 more now. Roland is giving $300 rebates on them as Yamah rasies their prices......... A Strange thing to do in this economic climate unless they realize they CAN get the money Roland has been getting.

I'll bet Our store is not nearly as down year to year as a clothing or general retailer.

We were slammed yesterday with tax refund purchases which have just begun. Anytime I can move a $3000 Taylor and $1600 keyboards in this town in this part of the country to LOCALS in this economy I have to ask WTF?

The Mall was slammed yesterday. I don;t know if it was the promise of the Stimulus package being signed or tax refunds. But it looked like December 23rd.
=

[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-15-2009).]

"we were slammed"........kinfrog sounds like its your store?.......a few hundred here or there no big deal.....if the instrument makes you happy it's priceless..who cares....just get what you like and make good music.

For the 30 hours a week I'm there...."It's MY store" IF I actually owned the store I would expect any employee to feel the same. (That's the attitude that generates midyear and $3500 Christmas bonuses)

Besides the way the store is run we are all managers and partake in choosing what to carry, order product (which really messes with the vendor's heads they don't know who's ass to kiss and when) The owners deals exclusively with Yamaha Piano Division. The rest of us call in orders as we see a need of give them to our routine order guy. We determine pricing and when to make a sale at what price. We all take ownership of the store. have a couple "meetings" a year maybe LOL. Pretty loose for a 7 day a week 12 hour a day store in a MAll. But it works and has worked long before I got there. I would not work for a store that was run with an iron fist owner with approval processes and procedures for everything.

The owner makes us feel its our store shares the profits and pays well. Commissions are the icing not the cake.




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-15-2009).]

No need to brag which doesn't impress me in the least...your a salesman in a store & not the owner or anywhere near that...so "WE" doesn't make sense to me when stated in this context sorry ...but I'm glad you enjoy your work & your new WS.... I have friends that generate millions in bonuses in the stock market... so what?



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-15-2009).]

Brag? LOL I am proud to work for a great and generous business man..I will brag all day long about the store yes and claim ownership.We are more than salesmen, we are also stock boys, money counters,janitors, bank runners, stock orderers,shelf stuffer s, warehouse operatives,teachers,toilet cleaners and NAMM representatives.....We do more than sell. Sometimes I WISH all I had to do was stand out front demoing the Tyros but I would be bored to death...LOL AS far as bonuses go thats a rarity in any retail business for employees. Ask a Best Buy or GC employee what his midyear bonus was....Its not like "our" store is on Wall Street. LOL

You wrongfully assume I want to "impress" you as well. For what purpose is beyond me.




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-15-2009).]

I think you have the right idea Donny...doing what you love, and doing it really well.

Seeing you perform at the arranger jam sure gave me a whole new perspective on how you operate.

When you're doing what you love...it ain't work.

Ian

If you reread your post above you'll see how I came to that "IMPRESS" conclusion...sorry if I offended you with my honesty...good luck to you in whatever application you utilize at that store.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Ian....you dont know how right you are



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-15-2009).]

Hmmm

That statement bothered you so much as to reprimand me that it wasn't MY store? Are you frigging kidding me?

You were "offended" or apparently insulted intellectually by my use of the word WE so much as to reprimand me and remind me it really wasn't "MY" store...."I'm just a salesman". Again for what reason only you could possibly know. God forbid someone think I own a music store as if that is even something to wave a "hey look at me" banner about? I have achieved much loftier ambitions with far less headache I assure you.

I don;t understand why the word "WE as in ("us" not MINE)were slammed yesterday" would be come such an issue for you....really.

I realize there are some older people on this board, after reading pssing contest after pissing contest,,,,,,I write it off as bitterness of some who's dreams passed them by .. but thats a tad too "cranky" for me..

I guess i should have said.."The store that I work for was slammed yesterday" Would that have made you happy? The definition and origin of the phrase "Cranky Old Men" seems appropriate here sometimes.




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-15-2009).]

Exactly that would have been the correct terminology...I have a few friends that talk in the "WE" tense just to pretend they are more important then they really are, I'm not saying you meant it to be like that but it's a personal pet peeve of mine that irks me... so when I read it Braggart alarms went off inside. I never begrudge any one's occupation, I just rather hear about it WITHOUT all the fluff.

My Hate List
1. Waitresses that say “Do You Need Change”
2. Waitresses that only give you cream. And you have to ask for MILK
3. Bad Toupees drawing more attention to yourself
4. Old men with died jet black hair
5. Restaurants with a big waiting line outside. Take a number? Not me!
6. Greek Diners with SUPER bright lights, mirrors,& overpriced bad food
7. Women with shaved eyebrows that are now DRAWN on with markers or tattoos
8. Women with Too Much Makeup & Perfume
9. Women & Men with Facial plastic surgery…Yikes!
10. Banks that take your Fingerprints to cash a check
11. People that talk in the WE tense
12. Way Over priced Bar Drinks with too much ice
13. Burnt Egg Omelets after you tell the waitress NOT to do it
14. Smashed Hamburger Buns McDonalds, Burger King etc, etc, ..
15. Suits & Ties on people…So Barbaric & Outdated!
16. Two News People Idiots that read teleprompters {ping-pong} effect
17. Yanni & John Tesh music
18. Small Cars with no room to move around
19. Car Salesman and Idiot Managers asking a million questions..
”Lets Make a Deal”
20. Subway” Sandwiches (with No meat) for $7.99
21. Trying to find good food late at night after 11pm
22. Crowded Loud places where I have to scream at the person next to me
23. Jug Handles that take 3,4,5 lights to get through them
24. Bumper to Bumper traffic for miles for no reason… rubbernecking
25. Credit Cards no need for them. Use cash your always in debt with them
26. Hot Muggy Weather…with No Air-Conditioning
27. Stopping for Highway Tolls every 5 miles
28. Wait staff with Multiple Facial piercing when serving me food
29. People that drive in the Extreme Reclined Seat position
30. People that have tons of stuff hanging off their rear view mirror
31. Driving in a snow storm slipping, sliding around on ice
32. People that talk “Baby Talk” to infants!!!!
33. Companies with letters instead of numbers to dial
34. Hate to hear the term “BOOB JOB”
35. Hollywood Shows eg: Access Hollywood etc,…who cares?
36. WAWA computer screen to order a freaking sandwich!!!!
37. Bank Officers without secluded private offices in the middle of bank floors everyone hears your business
38. Franchise restaurants with no menu prices on fancy drinks
39. Basketball & Hockey coaches in suits? why?




[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-15-2009).]

WOW....Relax.. enjoy life. You are going to have atroke allowing yourself to be "bothered" by others words, actions, looks, choices, the weather, ,,,,jug handles? and other peoples lives in general...

My God. How can you leave your house and come back happy? ever...LOL

Heres my hate list:

The word "virtually" Legal term for the false advertising that follows it. A giant disclaimer. Would you get on a plane advertised to "virtually" make it to it's destination? They should strike that word from the language because what follows it is meaningless and renders that which proceeds it totally moot....

Thats pretty much it....The rest I can handle ok. Even painted eyebrows and cranky old men with comb overs of three hairs even though I want to scream. Get a friggin wig already!! I just laugh instead......I laugh a lot.

Ah life in the real world....



[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-15-2009).]

Hey Kingfrog--watch that cranky old man crap--I resemble that remark!

Gary

Then be proud of it!! Cranky Old Men Unite!! Change the world.

I think the XS is a great choice. I still have my Motif ES and the only reason I didn't upgrade is that the XS does not host the AN150 and VL plugins that I have in the ES. I'd miss them a lot if I didn't have them. The XS is far advanced in the area of arps vs the ES.

I don't know how the SA voices work in the XS, but I can say that while I don't have any SA voices in the ES, the guitar patches sound better to me in general vs their counterparts on the Tyros2. Perhaps some of it has to do with the effects section, but even w/o much effect, in spite of the articulations, which work well enough, the guitar sounds themselves don't sound very realistic to me on the T2. Don't get me wrong, they have a "nice" sound, just not particularly close to any guitar I've played. OTOH, several of the ES sounds come pretty close. That's just my ears of course, but since I'm playing the things, it does matter to me.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-16-2009).]

I know these WS can do so many things....BUT I have YET to hear any normal everyday musician produce a quality sounding approaching PrO recording using only the WS....everyone I listen to sounds so amateurish, unbalanced, and not of a professional caliber at all. Are these things that hard to create with or is it more USER error in playing ability or lack of knowledge?


At 7:30 of this here is a yamaha Pro demo of the XS pattern creation which sound awesome...BUT when you get it home and try it it never sounds like this?....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIbsZ6Gur6s&feature=related



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-16-2009).]

Kingfrog,
Virtually is OK, and I need it...
If I say my data collection system will interface to any ERP system...I'm screwed if somebody finds some off the path system that nothing talks to from 1970!

So, we say the system interfaces to viryually all ERP systems...

Depends on how you use it...no, I don't want virtually a safe flight over the atlantic..But in truth very few things are absolute.

Good luck with the Motif XS...

Lee S.

Donny, I am afraid that arranger players aren't generally any better (or worse) that WS players, on the whole...

All this shows is just how difficult it is to make an entire piece of music on keyboards, and make it sound like real players (if that's what you are after). Sad truth is, most players that CAN make a good demo on an arranger, if you stripped out the arranger parts, would sound no better... The arranger IS what is making us sound good, not us!

But for me, the main thing this shows is how unprepared, ill-equipped and unskilled most arranger players (OK, WS players too!) are at making styles. Anyone who lightly tosses off the excuse for a poorly styled arranger of 'You are supposed to make your own' is living in a fantasy world. Without great styles we are at the mercy of whatever our main musical skills are. For most keyboard players, that is playing the piano part and little else (OK, the organ part too!).

Few of us are great drummers, or imitators of great drummers. Few know how to phrase and voice brass parts well. Few can lay down a great bassline (especially one that works for an arranger). And so on and so forth. But style making involves all those skills.

What primarily amazes me is that those few arrangers that expect the user to make the styles can't even find ONE good styler maker to voice their own product. For good money, no less. Why they expect the users to be able to do something they can't even get a professional to do beats me

Diki ....

Great post!! I have to agree with you 100%.....you absolutely have nailed this topic with a spot on assessment. I also think too many players take way too much credit for their playing when the "ARRANGER" is actually the BIG STAR of the show if they utilize it correctly, although many won't admit that due to ego.
As you say every penny you pay for one of these wonderful arrangers or workstations is miniscule compared to what goes into the R&D of them...yes many need improvement in the future hopefully we'll get that someday, but mucho appreciation & respect is what I feel inside every night on stage when i'm playing an arranger kb.

Diki, Donny.
100% agree.
Every time I sit down and play the PA2...I learn more about how darn good it really is.

Tonight I just set down and used one of the simpler, standard styles Swing Ballad 1. I played a few songs with it, and it was great...also the pads were super...nice piano arp's that synced perfect to the style.

Sure I complain about some things, sure I want more...but..this is pretty sweet!

Lee

The Motif is different then the traditional WS. Take a Tyros 3 a step back. On the T3 I can whip up any song my wife needs in any key. We did a quick cut of Unforgettable for her Valentine gig in 10 minutes using chord changes and some polishing in exactly the key she needed using a jazz ballad style.

However for me the MIDI implementation is horrid. When I revoice a style i want to HEAR the voice Im revoicing on the track. NOT the R1 or R2 voice in memory. I want to send style Midi out without having to create a song. I want to make pattern based phrases without having to deal with workarounds.

The T3 cannot replace the XS, nor vice versa., But they compliment each other.

The Motif allows one to CREATE multi channel Arps/styles in pattern mode just using rhythm
Play a bass part on the same not ..just the rhythm, same with drums, guitar and another Arp.let it loop and change parts listening for the best combination. This cannot be done on the Tyros. Then save the pattern as a Voice/Arp or use it in song construction.

So I get to write from a with blank pageout having to arrange the individual parts as 6000 arps take care of that. IF I cannot find and Arp I don't have to play the actual part, only the rhythm and velocity switching on a single note. That will translate to chords later when constructing a song. TWO CDS worth of sampling audio can be save on board which means one can create a complete song BEFORE I even fire up the DAW including vocoder and or backup vocals. Then transfer every thing to the DAW and re voice it as needed, edit it or do whatever, send the parts to the T3, EZDrummer, a VSTI.....THEN use the entire Motif as a CONTROL Surface for My DAW with all transport and fader control when mixing the audio down.

Voices contain up to 8 elements.Thats a lot of salt and pepper. My VSTI Dimension only has 4. Most synthesis voices only use 4 elements which can be layers according to velocity and or keymapping, controller use etc.

There is no reason one could not create a worthy production on a workstation. Limitations are few and far between, Taeks more work then the T3 but thats how Im used to working and the ARPS will give me the inspiration I bought the T3 for. I am keeping the T3. There are voices on it that cannot be replaced by the XS. Styles will always be able now to be transfers to the Motif, and manipulated there, where ARPS can be switched out., via the DAW. I am looking forward ot the integration.

Kingfrog prove my point can you post one of your WS songs for us.

Exactly right......With the XS one CAN make styles without being a bass player, horn arranger, drummer etc, Thats the beauty of it for me. If one cannot create original works using 6000 editable arps and be able to simply create ones own Arps using just rhythm and having the ability to adjust the timbre to the waveform/LFO filtering level (which the Fantom does even better)

The idea for me is still NOT to have to play Bass parts, horn parts, guitar strumming parts, classical arps.,,...I just need to assemble then adjust velocity curves and eight parameters that can be saver per ARP. That a lot of style creation HP. AND the MIDI implementation is what I'm used to. ANd I will have 88 keys and not wonder if the board is in the truck when I need it.

And as a bonus through a generous agreement with Yamah as an employee of a dealer I can sell it in a year for more than I paid for it) Both the Tyros and the XS will be parked money not lost money.

I have a better idea: Buy a cheap version of Cubase for MIDI creation. It works seamlessly with Yamaha (they are sister companies).

I have tried Cubase. Its not the SW thats the problem its the Tyros MIDI implimentation. It does not behave like a workstation with any MIDI software. I won't use Cubase anyway though. I bought a copy yeasr ago and it had this dongle I had to plug into a serial port to use it!!

I have a problem with SW companies that make one use hardware keys to operate. I can put Cakewalk on 3 computers legally. Cubase will only run on one IF you have the key. If you lose the key or it breaks you are down until you jump through hoops......

Cakewalk has survived and thrived with zero copy protection since its inception.They never even wrote a version for Apple which is amazing sine APPLE is a very popular platform for Music. But that just serves to further prove the success of Cakewalk (now purchased by Roland.

The XS8 comes with Cubase AI but Sonar has a control surface for it and Yamaha provided one for Sonar on board so I won't need Cubase to implement that sorely needed feature. I brought home a Nano controller from Korg to try out. Great for notebook use,

well it's obvious....we wont ever hear anything done on WS...I for one am always open to listen & learn other ways of creating music from others. I guess for now you tube is all we have,.I'll will duck now



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-17-2009).]

Everything I've posted was done on a workstation...

Says so on the front panel of my G70... "Music Workstation" Hasn't got the word 'arranger' on it anywhere!

I already did. I posted a WS only song done awhile time ago using a Triton WS and some other modules. http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/Forum37/HTML/018831.html

This combination will give far more choices than using just an Arranger style to ADAPT to rather than have it adapt to what I have already done. I am finding it more difficult to adapt my songs to an pre arranged stiff Arranger style and trying to "edit" the style is even more challenging due to the inner workings of the tyros and MIDI implimentation. I am anxious try some single line arps WITH my older sequences. the bottomline is I really miss the "workflow" of a real Work Station integrated with a DAW.

If one remembers I bought the Korg originally hoping for a great WS experience AND an arranger. I did not like the arranger part as the library of styles were lacking for me. Now the opposite is true. I have a great arranger with an unlimited library of styles but a piss poor Workstation.




[This message has been edited by Kingfrog (edited 02-17-2009).]

Now I remember that tune but did you really need a WS to play that.....there are so many great yamaha balled styles, like Westend ballad, Piano ballad, etc, etc, ... that would of worked fine why go thru all that trouble with a WS?

At the time it was all I had. If I had to to it again I probably could use an Arranger. But it has to be at the beginning of the process. I don;t think I could do that tune squeezing into a pre arranged style. In fact thats one of the reasons Im going back to a WS. I want to redo some older songs and I cannot find unique arrangements no one else is using. However I can replace a part or two with a nice guitar or bass ARP. I use a VSTI Drums most of the time and aSW sampler for individual String parts. I am finding the T3 does and hopefully the Motif will take some of the load off the DAW.

I like the idea of just turning on the WS and doing the entire production there. THEN turning on the DAw for further editing and routing of voices. Im still going to use the Styles. But I won't HAVE to compromise if I have a WS involved in the process. Thats really how I have been working for the past 20 years. Arrangers are new to me. I love the T3 and the voices are amazing but like DIKI mentioned once they are really much better for producing songs that have ALREADY been written and are based on such. Completely Original work is tough to do on them as thats not what they were really designed for. They are playback machines more than creation machines. I think the Korg and Roland Arrangers are probably better at allowing for easy original integration.

Plus as a bonus there are 88 keys and a control surface that integrates well with a DAW. I'm pretty excited about it and since the price increase taking effect March 1 I needed to jump now if I was going to jump at all. Its a significant increase on the Motif series.