Then be proud of it!! Cranky Old Men Unite!! Change the world.

I think the XS is a great choice. I still have my Motif ES and the only reason I didn't upgrade is that the XS does not host the AN150 and VL plugins that I have in the ES. I'd miss them a lot if I didn't have them. The XS is far advanced in the area of arps vs the ES.

I don't know how the SA voices work in the XS, but I can say that while I don't have any SA voices in the ES, the guitar patches sound better to me in general vs their counterparts on the Tyros2. Perhaps some of it has to do with the effects section, but even w/o much effect, in spite of the articulations, which work well enough, the guitar sounds themselves don't sound very realistic to me on the T2. Don't get me wrong, they have a "nice" sound, just not particularly close to any guitar I've played. OTOH, several of the ES sounds come pretty close. That's just my ears of course, but since I'm playing the things, it does matter to me.

AJ

[This message has been edited by Bluezplayer (edited 02-16-2009).]

I know these WS can do so many things....BUT I have YET to hear any normal everyday musician produce a quality sounding approaching PrO recording using only the WS....everyone I listen to sounds so amateurish, unbalanced, and not of a professional caliber at all. Are these things that hard to create with or is it more USER error in playing ability or lack of knowledge?


At 7:30 of this here is a yamaha Pro demo of the XS pattern creation which sound awesome...BUT when you get it home and try it it never sounds like this?....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIbsZ6Gur6s&feature=related



[This message has been edited by Dnj (edited 02-16-2009).]

Kingfrog,
Virtually is OK, and I need it...
If I say my data collection system will interface to any ERP system...I'm screwed if somebody finds some off the path system that nothing talks to from 1970!

So, we say the system interfaces to viryually all ERP systems...

Depends on how you use it...no, I don't want virtually a safe flight over the atlantic..But in truth very few things are absolute.

Good luck with the Motif XS...

Lee S.

Donny, I am afraid that arranger players aren't generally any better (or worse) that WS players, on the whole...

All this shows is just how difficult it is to make an entire piece of music on keyboards, and make it sound like real players (if that's what you are after). Sad truth is, most players that CAN make a good demo on an arranger, if you stripped out the arranger parts, would sound no better... The arranger IS what is making us sound good, not us!

But for me, the main thing this shows is how unprepared, ill-equipped and unskilled most arranger players (OK, WS players too!) are at making styles. Anyone who lightly tosses off the excuse for a poorly styled arranger of 'You are supposed to make your own' is living in a fantasy world. Without great styles we are at the mercy of whatever our main musical skills are. For most keyboard players, that is playing the piano part and little else (OK, the organ part too!).

Few of us are great drummers, or imitators of great drummers. Few know how to phrase and voice brass parts well. Few can lay down a great bassline (especially one that works for an arranger). And so on and so forth. But style making involves all those skills.

What primarily amazes me is that those few arrangers that expect the user to make the styles can't even find ONE good styler maker to voice their own product. For good money, no less. Why they expect the users to be able to do something they can't even get a professional to do beats me

Diki ....

Great post!! I have to agree with you 100%.....you absolutely have nailed this topic with a spot on assessment. I also think too many players take way too much credit for their playing when the "ARRANGER" is actually the BIG STAR of the show if they utilize it correctly, although many won't admit that due to ego.
As you say every penny you pay for one of these wonderful arrangers or workstations is miniscule compared to what goes into the R&D of them...yes many need improvement in the future hopefully we'll get that someday, but mucho appreciation & respect is what I feel inside every night on stage when i'm playing an arranger kb.

Diki, Donny.
100% agree.
Every time I sit down and play the PA2...I learn more about how darn good it really is.

Tonight I just set down and used one of the simpler, standard styles Swing Ballad 1. I played a few songs with it, and it was great...also the pads were super...nice piano arp's that synced perfect to the style.

Sure I complain about some things, sure I want more...but..this is pretty sweet!

Lee

The Motif is different then the traditional WS. Take a Tyros 3 a step back. On the T3 I can whip up any song my wife needs in any key. We did a quick cut of Unforgettable for her Valentine gig in 10 minutes using chord changes and some polishing in exactly the key she needed using a jazz ballad style.

However for me the MIDI implementation is horrid. When I revoice a style i want to HEAR the voice Im revoicing on the track. NOT the R1 or R2 voice in memory. I want to send style Midi out without having to create a song. I want to make pattern based phrases without having to deal with workarounds.

The T3 cannot replace the XS, nor vice versa., But they compliment each other.

The Motif allows one to CREATE multi channel Arps/styles in pattern mode just using rhythm
Play a bass part on the same not ..just the rhythm, same with drums, guitar and another Arp.let it loop and change parts listening for the best combination. This cannot be done on the Tyros. Then save the pattern as a Voice/Arp or use it in song construction.

So I get to write from a with blank pageout having to arrange the individual parts as 6000 arps take care of that. IF I cannot find and Arp I don't have to play the actual part, only the rhythm and velocity switching on a single note. That will translate to chords later when constructing a song. TWO CDS worth of sampling audio can be save on board which means one can create a complete song BEFORE I even fire up the DAW including vocoder and or backup vocals. Then transfer every thing to the DAW and re voice it as needed, edit it or do whatever, send the parts to the T3, EZDrummer, a VSTI.....THEN use the entire Motif as a CONTROL Surface for My DAW with all transport and fader control when mixing the audio down.

Voices contain up to 8 elements.Thats a lot of salt and pepper. My VSTI Dimension only has 4. Most synthesis voices only use 4 elements which can be layers according to velocity and or keymapping, controller use etc.

There is no reason one could not create a worthy production on a workstation. Limitations are few and far between, Taeks more work then the T3 but thats how Im used to working and the ARPS will give me the inspiration I bought the T3 for. I am keeping the T3. There are voices on it that cannot be replaced by the XS. Styles will always be able now to be transfers to the Motif, and manipulated there, where ARPS can be switched out., via the DAW. I am looking forward ot the integration.

Kingfrog prove my point can you post one of your WS songs for us.

Exactly right......With the XS one CAN make styles without being a bass player, horn arranger, drummer etc, Thats the beauty of it for me. If one cannot create original works using 6000 editable arps and be able to simply create ones own Arps using just rhythm and having the ability to adjust the timbre to the waveform/LFO filtering level (which the Fantom does even better)

The idea for me is still NOT to have to play Bass parts, horn parts, guitar strumming parts, classical arps.,,...I just need to assemble then adjust velocity curves and eight parameters that can be saver per ARP. That a lot of style creation HP. AND the MIDI implementation is what I'm used to. ANd I will have 88 keys and not wonder if the board is in the truck when I need it.

And as a bonus through a generous agreement with Yamah as an employee of a dealer I can sell it in a year for more than I paid for it) Both the Tyros and the XS will be parked money not lost money.