Hi Guys…Leezone here…

As you know i attended the clinic in Brooklyn.
Just got back from the hospital as Nedim almost choked me to death ;-)

Before talking about AUDYA, I’d like to say thanks to Ted & Mr.Sound Staff for the SPECTACULAR hospitality. Everyone was very friendly. I wasn’t expecting any food and much to my surprise there was LOTS of home cooking which I assume was prepared for us my the wives, friends, daughters which were also in attendance.

I came to find that Mr. Sound is THE ONLY place I know that carries just about ALL arrangers out there, except the AUDYA (for now that is). Mr. Sound is also an authorized repair center for all major brands of musical instruments.

You’d think I work for or am promoting Mr. Sound, but I am NOT. Just letting my fellow synthzone members aware of this as they may wanna try out all arrangers, or they may have equipment to repair and know of no place to take it… I know someone here had an issue with Mr.Sound via telephone BUT i have nothing but good memories, and good times, and i think many others did too.

Setup:
Oh the sound system that was setup was AWESOME, 2 Dynacords towers. Man those are some good speakers….. Oh , and we also had the AUDYA hooked up to a computer monitor, so we saw what the Screen looked like (mirror of AUDYA’s screen)

So onto the AUDYA… (these are my opinions so of course there are positives and negatives)

Like AJ said, it started out as a question and answer… which I think was good to learn about , and learn how AUDYA works. After many, many questions AJ started to talk about the AUDYA… All in all AJ did a good job in answering questions and demoing, as he was still there when I left at 7pm.
Basically he demonstrated the AI, where AUDYA improvises when you, the player, plays same things over and over, or when you hit keys harder, etc. The AUDYA varies its accompaniments, or adds some quick fills, extra notes here and there, or a different bass line, which I think keeps things sounding fresh and live.

AJ then showed off some of the styles, sounds, etc…
I’ll briefly start out talking about the styles.

Styles:
I can honestly say that the styles do sound very good. Very much IN YOUR FACE, Live. To me the BEST part of the AUDYA’s styles have to be the Drums. They are very, very realistic. The snare is KILLER. Deep full kick drum. Also the cymbals make this keyboard sound so real. Real cymbals played by real drummers. No matter how well you can program you will never get close to the realism of these “audio cymbals”.
The basses are nice too.
The AUDYA does have live audio bass on many styles. The audio guitar loops sound AMAZING as well.
As far as complex chords, as I’ve mentioned, 6, 7, 9, 11 chords are played via audio (basic chord), and the 6, 7, 9, 11 notes are played by midi guitar.
Aug, Sus, Dim,,, there is some dropout of audio loop which Is picked up by midi guitars, but again that depends on the style chosen. I would love for Ketron to expand on the guitar chord library. It’s not perfect but it’s pretty damn good.

To finish off talking about styles... The Modern Dance Styles need some work. I think it would be worthwhile to get some YOUNG people to program the Dance/Techno/House, type stuff. Then this AUDYA would also start to attract the "younger" generation. Also important for these Dance Styles to come to life are synth sounds which i will discuss in a bit.

The one important thing I will say about styles is that many people will want or have to create their own, especially those playing ethnic music, Portuguese, Turkish, Jewish music. That’s great, BUT, one problem. Ketron does not have the software to create your own styles. Or a software to convert midi files to styles (like Styleworks).
Styles can be created via Cubase, Logic, Sonar etc. but it’s a bit more complicated as you’ll have to set up your tracks, engage record, fly in realtime to AUDYA, hit Pattern A, then B, etc. Ketron owners REALLY need to have software to facilitate style creation. Without it, I feel many will shy away from the keyboard as not everyone is fluent is a DAW program or has the time and energy for this. So Ketron get to work on software.
AJ please let us know if we will ever have such software or if something is in the works.

Cool thing about AUDYA is that it has 6 ea. 1/4" outs with tip-ring-sleeve, so using the correct cables gets you 12 mono outs that can go straight to a mixer, so you can record whatever you want independently to lets say Pro Tools, or you can have your sound man control EVERY instrument independently.

One thing I wish the AUDYA had was mute buttons under sliders for the style parts. You cannot mute a part of style at this time (as you would by pressing volume up and down buttons at same time on other Ketrons). AJ did mention that future OS will let you mute via the side “F1”, “F2” buttons, so we’ll see ..

Vocalizer: Did not impress me. Sounded a bit robotic for my taste. I’m not saying it sucks. I’m saying that I would NOT use it and wish it wasn’t there as it would have brought price down a bit ;-) But others may love it, who knows… Reverbs are just ok, so I will continue to use my Lexicon.

Onto the Sounds:
Well to be honest, they did not impress me a whole lot . It’s got all the bread and butter sounds as do the old Ketron products. Are the sounds better in AUDYA? Yes they are, but to me they are quite similar. Just a whole lot of what we are already used to. I was really hoping for some cutting-edge sounds. There are lots of synth type sounds, but unfortunately are not comparable to Yamaha’s, Korg’s, Rolands. These synth sounds would REALLY make the dance styles shine, which unfortunately do not at this time. That’s’ just my opinion. Some sounds sound a bit “thin”. This being said, the user would want to create their own sounds by layering. For instance I felt brass was just Ok, not awesome. But as you can layer 4 sounds, I believe, I would create my own “thick” brass sound as I did on my Roland G-70.
In my opinion the best sounds in AUDYA are drums of course, Hammond, piano, accordions, flutes, saxes, trumpet. I don’t care much for the new Nylon. The distortion guitar was not impressive either. I think Ketron has got to study Yamaha’s guitar algorithms :-)
If I get the AUDYA I definitely will be using a laptop with VST’s for right hand sounds to complement the bread and butter sounds.

Memory Issues:
The one thing that was discussed was the miniscule 64MB of Ram. I think this is an issue which Ketron has to explain a bit better. I will attempt to explain this a bit…
From what AJ said and from what I understood, the AUDYA compresses your samples, or what’s loaded to keyboard. It compresses it NOT by degrading the sound as does an mp3, but rather it kind of .ZIPs it, but with a Ketron proprietary compressing program. I believe it compresses somewhere near 12x or maybe more. So lets say you want to load samples which total 62MB (which normally would fill up AUDYA’s entire RAM),,,, In reality AUDYA would compress the 62MB to let’s say about 5MB. So in reality what we think is 64MB of RAM is actually about 768MB. (assuming compression of 12x)
AJ or anyone, PLEASE do correct me if I’m wrong. But that’s how I understood it, and that’s how I can best explain it. I do not want to assume or put out false info on this so please do correct me if I’m wrong.
It just seems that IF this is how AUDYA handles the memory, Ketron should really think about HAMMERING this into our brains and making everyone aware of this. Promote this Compression feature… You can say something like it has 64MB but compression gives you the equivalent of roughly xxx MB
AJ, please do explain this a bit further as I am a bit uncertain how it works…

Build Quality:
The keybed feels pretty good, not as good as my G-70. The buttons, sliders look a bit “cheap” to me. Again, I guess I am so spoiled with my G-70 sliders and buttons. I really wish the Ketron’s build was more like the Roland Fantom G, but I guess you can’t have everything. If it had “better” components then we probably would have to dish out $7,000.

Price:
As far as price of AUDYA, as I’ve said in a previous post, AJ seems to be guestimating it in the $5,000’ish range which I still feel is TOO MUCH. IF and ONLY IF this thing looked and felt like a Fantom, would it be worth $5,000. One thing is for sure, It would sell MUCH better if it was $4,000.
Do I think it’s worth $5k, NO. Will I still buy it ?
Well I do LOVE that “live” feel this keyboard brings. I'll have to see how many gigs I have this year, how much old gear I can sell, and IF Ketron will give us that MUCH needed software :-)

In a nutshell, what I loved:
the Drums, the LIVE “in your face” sound, Live Audio Bass and Electric Guitar loops, the styles in general, flexibility in sound routing, bread and butter sounds.

what I disliked:
overall build, lack of software to program styles, lack of modern sounds (synth, techno'ish), all guitar sounds (steel, nylon, distortion), vocalizer, THE PRICE

here's to hoping that Ketron will continue to improve on this ground-breaking arranger.
It's got the potential, but it still needs work.

hope you guys enjoyed the review...let's hear your thoughts

be well everyone...

Leezone (the other Lee)

Lee thanx for your honest review .....I hope to hear more from others as these Arranger fiesta sessions progress around the country and updates to the OS & issues discussed by you are improved hopefully down the road...we'll see...

What I can say is that when I tried the Audya and loaded samples, they occupied their actual size in RAM, i.e. loading the stereo grand occupied around 36MB of ram (the size of the file).

Thanks lee for your review, I guess when Mr Sound gets one in or Frank, I'll give it a whirl. Did you hear or try any of the tangos or foxtrots?

mrdave,

i am unsure as to exactly how this whole compression thing works, how it's used,
whether it's compressed to hard drive and then expanded to RAM, which would be useless, SO...

perhaps AJ can explain it in more detail...

Hard Drive/USB ------> Compressed [12:1] ------> Audya RAM.

So files (when loaded) are "zipped" into RAM. When reading from RAM to Sound card ----> Unzipped for processing/use. Display shows actual file size though.

Hope this helps.

AJ

PS: Leezone - good explanation. I figured someone else would be better off explaining so more understand, than me!

[This message has been edited by Ketron_AJ (edited 02-24-2009).]

Leezone, can you go into more detail regarding SMF playback?

Specifically search functions to try and find a specific song?
Also, I read that the Audya has it's own Crossfade feature like the Korg PA series. Did you try that at all, and if so, how was it?

So yuo're telling me that the 36MB Stereo piano instrument when loaded into RAM will take only 3MB? PLEASE.. don't be fool... this is somewhat not possible for at least 2 reasons:
1) Lossless audio compression at 12:1 is pratically impossible, you can achieve 12:1 ratio with lossy compression algorithms like MP3 but you'll have a noticeable loss of quality in sound at these high ratios.
2) If this would be the case I could load many supersolo sounds on audya's RAM, instead when loading big files (like the stereo piano) I can barely load 2 or 3 of them before getting out of memory. I tried this on the Audya I had for experiments, so I know what I say...
Note that I tried os ver 1.0, but I don't think they added this "compression" to 1.1.
Do you want to prove it? Simple: make a video where you load the following 3 sounds together:
SUPERSOLO/STEREO_GRAND.INS
SUPERSOLO/POP_ALTO.INS
SUPERSOLO/POP_TENOR.INS
These together are around 96MB in size, if they would be compressed at 12:1 they would take 8MB and could be loaded together.

AJ said above that they are zipping the files. Which means you will likely fit about 70MB of data into the 64MB chip.

Regards.
James.

[This message has been edited by Irishacts (edited 02-25-2009).]

The word "zipped" was in quotes... there is a compression scheme called flac that looslesly (sic) compresses audio files (cd ripped audio etc) at about 1/2 their original size, but consumes a lot of processing power. You probably know it better than me.

12:1 ratio? Well, let's see it.

Onthe other hand, a "simple" waveform, such as a sax or piano would be more "compression friendly" than a full, complex song, right?

[This message has been edited by trident (edited 02-25-2009).]

yes James, this is about the correct calculation.
I'm working right now for programming the Dream 64Mb flash chip for the new MS too: http://www.lionstracs.com/demo/flashprogramm.JPG
so, I know well how the dream chip work from many years.
The Dream DSP allow to load only compiled soundsfiles.INS or complete binary bank files but NOT raw data like wav.
For playng the sounds in realtime must be compiled first and loaded in RAM/Flash, no compression is allowed.

For create a clean 64Mb file that can fit in one 64mb flash, I have used about 71Mb or raw wav/pcm data and during the compiler wil be optimized/compressed to get a 64Mb binary file.
Conclusion: the file that you have to load on DSP is already optimized and the RAM used wil be the same as the file size loaded.

Interesting how Ketron.it can get those new Audya demos on their Ketron Italy web site to sound fantastic yet in person the Audya seems to fall short. So apparently every guitar category i.e acoustic, electric, and distortion guitars are only so so??

I respect leezone's opinion of the guitars so I have to assume the guitars are indeed lackluster, which is a real letdown in my humble opinion. I kind of knew that the vocalizer would essentially suck because of the Musikmesse demos a few years ago by Robert Messier. I encouraged Ketron, way back when, to work on the vocalizer so it wouldn't sound like a "vocoder" and be so robotic, but obviously they didn't heed my advice eh?

What is also troubling is that Ketron apparently has yet to find a solution to make their sounds sound more realistic like Yamaha has done with their SA/2 voices and Korg's RX and DNC sounds. So it seems with the Audya (according to leezone) we will be getting 6 year old SD1 sounds with a few and far between "minor" improvement in only a few of the "newer" sounds?? That would be a HUGE disappointment if it indeed turns out to be true.

So again what we're apparently getting with the Audya is a $5,000 shabbily constructed (low quality build) keyboard, a so so Key bed action, lackluster sounds including synth, guitar, etc., a crummy VH, midi replacement of audio sounds when using complex chords, lack of RAM for the Sampler which hinders importing sufficient sound libraries into the keyboard itself. >> I thought this was the 21st Century??? Hey, is this a case of another "lost" decade like Japan had in the 90's? Only it is now happening to Italy this time around?? All I can say is I hope Ketron is current on their insurance policies and their company business affairs and lives are in order. Cuz I'm not too sure they're going to be around much longer if the Audya debacle turns sour and they don't (read: CAN'T) sell them in mass to at least recoup the Audya's R&D, let alone turn a profit on it. With the dire world economy downturn sucking the life out of companies left and right it would not be unfathomable, in my opinion, to see a company like Ketron folding shop too, especially if their new pride and joy becomes a notorious boondoggle to them in the process. I truly hope that doesn't happen and that the Audya does indeed succeed. Time will tell.. but things certainly look troublesome regarding the Audya. At least from what leezone and "others" have reported thus far.

All the best,
Mike

Mike why not wait till it comes to market & people put the Audya through its paces in different ways ....that will undoubtably be the thumbs up or down...because real players will give honest reviews pro/con after they spend whatever on this unit.
Be patient... dont jump the gun.

Mike, with all due respect, have you seen, touched or played the Audya yet???

Obviously not. He reads one mediocre review and immediately has the company going under.
I can't tell you how many luke-warm or negative reviews I've read of Tyros (along with the good ones of course.) Somehow Yamaha is still in business too.
As far as construction EVERY piece of Ketron gear I've seen has been built like a tank--nothing shoddy at all. Many users have had the same piece of gear for many years.
Chicken Little lives!

DonM

I don't think I am jumping the gun Donny.

The Audya is already out in Europe and the reports thus far from the like's of mrdave and others from over there, and from leezone so far from this side of the pond, has given quite an insight into the Audya's prowess (or lack thereof) by these reports. Will I feel different if I perchance (although most likely an impossibility really, unless I buy it sight unseen) play the Audya in person?? Maybe.. but when there starts to form - a "general" (although limited) consensus to a product, playing it in person would tend to only accentuate what has already been "revealed" in my opinion, instead of the other way around. In other words, if it has "already" been discovered that the Audya is NOT what it has been made out to be (read: "hyped up to be") I doubt that I would have a much different opinion from what others have already attested to through their own hands on experience. >> When you get these early reports of "mediocrity" it really lets the wind out of the sails if you know what I mean. I'm holding out a glimmer of hope though that there will be other reports that will start to trickle in that will hopefully be more encouraging and positive, especially from those who have updated their Audya to the latest OS version. I'm not holding my breath though, if you know what I mean. But we'll see..

All the best,
Mike

Mike have you ever owned or performed with a Ketron arranger KB?

Then you would know they make very good gear...with some very usuable features for the right player. Worldwide they will succeed with the Audya for sure.

First of all we all know Ketron has the best built machines, thats a fact. Sounds and else
it is a personal taste. Mike, what makes you think that Lee is right? Or i am right? Or anyone?
I completely dissagre with Lee on many things, does that make me right? I dont think so.
Can we judge the machine on the basis of that? Also dont think so. Trust me its different
when you sit down on the machine. I was very sceptical about this machine too, maybe
more then you are, before i ever saw one, just reading european reviews and lies.
I dissagre with Lee on the Sounds, i look at it different, also dont make me right, its just my
taste or need, the only thing i can say Lee is wrong is its built, there is nothing CHEAP on it.
I think Audya or any Ketron machine is the last machine to have something Cheap phisically.
I also dissagree with Lee also on the price but its still only my opinion. And yet, there will be
a third person that would dissagree with both of us...

I used the SD1 vocalizer with all of my songs and "suck" is not even close to describing the harmony recordings...

Now my songs are not all mainstream and you may not like them, but they do show the capabilities of the Ketron harmonizer.



------------------
http://www.esnips.com/web/Songs

I never really liked the lead guitars on my SD1, but I assign the volumne pedal to have a wha wha effect and add distortion..seems to make the rock lead better ...

Like I said previously, I hope they succeed with the Audya too Donny.

I suppose these "reviews" that we're hearing should be taken with a grain of salt, nevertheless, it still sends kind of a chill up my spine (instead of the proverbial "thrill up my leg" ), if you know what I mean.

I have no doubt that Ketron has made many good products in the past.. in the past.. in the past.. in the past. Do I hear an echo in here? The present is what we are faced with and the future is not a guaranteed proposition by any means. Just look out your proverbial window at all the companies that are currently going belly up as we speak. We can hope and expect for the best but should be prepared just in case, right Donny? Ketron, being a relatively small company compared to Yamaha or Roland, etc., needs to continue to make products that consumers will buy - and do it on a consistent basis and in relatively large numbers. OR, as the saying goes: adios muchachos.

I hope they survive and thrive as a company of course. But I'm troubled by the loooonnnnnnnnnnnnnngggggggggggggggggggg Audya delay, the high price tag forthcoming for the "privilege" - by the way, I use that term lightly - of owning the Audya, and the negative reports that are trickling in from synth zone members (amongst others) around the internet who have personally played or own it. And when I saw GEM, which was another relatively small company - kick the bucket, I have some trepidation towards Ketron who is in that same league as GEM as far as company size goes; and maybe in sales too for that matter.

Sure, you can be a fan boy and shell out whatever it takes and get an Audya but personally, I would rather judge the keyboard by its true worth and make my decision based upon facts and reality and based on my own specific needs; instead of buying into the hype for hype's sake or knowing that you have the latest model or gadget to hit the market so you can boast in that vein, etc. Newest does NOT always mean "best" or better, if you know what I mean. As an example, take the Tyros2 vs. Tyros3 for instance? lol.. >> I'm sure I ruffled Ian's feathers with that statement no doubt. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img] Oh well, he'll get over it... maybe. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img]

But I will withhold my final judgment on the Audya until I can gather more information and hear from other reports that start to filter in from respected sources. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] If the Audya ever gets reviewed from the likes of Sound On Sound or Keyboard magazine you can likely "bank" on their forthcoming prognosis as a reliable indicator of the Audya's real true worth. >> That's not by any means to say that leezone or mrdave, etc. are not valued for their opinions though, because they are. And I, for one, appreciate their open and honest opinions regarding this beast (or "so" called beast [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img]) and commend them for speaking from their hearts and being upfront and direct with us. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img]

All the best,
Mike

Hello Nedim,

one question for you,

are you saying the AUDYA's build quality is better than let's say a Roland G-70 ???

as you know i own a G-70,
the keybed is THE BEST of any arranger,
the buttons are THE BEST of any arranger,
the sliders are THE BEST of any arranger.

I would not say this is an opinion but a FACT, as i think 99% of those who have seen or played both the G-70 and AUDYA would agree

but i know YOU may disagree :-)

oh and i forgot to compare the touchscreen, or screen in general :-)

that's it as far as build quality

just like to add that even though there were things i disliked about AUDYA (as is on ANY keyboard i own), there WAS lots of things i liked...

"In a nutshell, what I loved:
the Drums, the LIVE “in your face” sound, Live Audio Bass and Electric Guitar loops, the styles in general, flexibility in sound routing, bread and butter sounds."

so my review was JUST my opinion and was in no way meant to "knock" or "belittle" the AUDYA.

you guys will have to try it yourselves and judge for yourselves, if ever available in your neck of the woods that is....

be well

Keybplayer

I have to say that first and foremost I respect Lee’s, Don Mason, Frankv & others reviews but that’s their opinions. DonM posted a review from the Solton Club forum and they’re review was different from Lee’s. Everyone tastes are ALL DIFFERENT. So its not that Lee is wrong or Don is wrong, it’s how they would apply the keyboard for their needs and in some cases it works out and other cases it doesn’t

What the really off the mark is that people post reviews for products they have never seen, touched, used or owned, like you.

I have owned many if not almost all of Ketron’s products in the past and I never had problems with them. Not that I’m a fan boy because I now own a Yamaha. I will only judge a keyboard once I’ve gone through it completely, by playing, hearing live, etc.

I’ll be sure to take your review, once you get your hands on one, with a grain of salt.

All the best,




[This message has been edited by mc (edited 02-25-2009).]

Don't flatter yourself, Michael, not a ruffled feather here...your wayward and sometimes provocative posts always give me a chuckle.

I see you are still embracing your inner pessimism as tightly as ever...well, at least you're consistent.

I'm sure Nedim and AJ have you figured out by now, and will consider the source and act accordingly.

Carry on.

Ian

Lee, i think i didnt choke you enough...

probably not Nedim,

but like i said there are positives and negatives when reviewing ANY keyboard ANY arranger, and ANYTHING in general,

you just hope the positives outweigh the negatives :-)

I dont know much about the SEARCH function but i know for a fact for the Playback,
actuallyon one ocassion i messed with it in private i mean at Ketron Labs. Yes, it does
FADES like Korg and even more cuz here more files can be played at once, like
Styles, SMF, MJ Loop, Key Tune, all in sync and all being Faded in and out.



[This message has been edited by Nedim (edited 02-25-2009).]

Thanks Nedim.

I think what many people seem to overlook about the Audya - or at LEAST it's rarely mentioned - is it's ability to multitask so extensively.

Playing an SMF (2 at once if you want) AND .Wav's AND MP3's AND Audio Loops/Styles all at once (or so I have read, correct me if I'm wrong here) is a "next generation step forward". You won't often need to play EVERYTHING together for sure, but it's nice to know the capability is there, and gives a clear indication of how much potential power is in this Machine.

I for one welcome it.

More importantly, I'll wait to demo one personally for a few hours before I make any judgement.

And on top of all mentioned above that can be done at the same time you can still do LOADING
and other stuff on the OS.

That alone is worth the $5000.00 price tag in an all in one unit.....it was the strenght of the midjay which I loved.

I can't for the life of me think of when I'd ever play two songs at the same time. Sure, I've listened to Charles Ives, but it is a pretty acquired taste

I guess I'm just not into the whole DJ culture. I play a song and segue into the next, sure... But layering two songs on top of each other?

I'm sorry, there are so MANY things I would like to see in an arranger, but the ability to play a whole bunch of different stuff simultaneously ain't one of them

Diki, it's for when you need more than the standard 16 (well 15 including a Master I guess) tracks of an SMF normally available.

For example, ambitious Classical pieces (using individual Orchestral instruments on each track instead of the "Full Orchestra Patch" on 1 or 2 tracks for a more authentic sounding and complex composition.
Even some highly orchestrated Pop songs could make use of it, particularly if they used samples.

Linking 2 SMFs would also eliminate the need for switching between more than one instrument on one track, to get around a 16 track limitation - say you needed 17 or 18 tracks - just one or two more than the "standard".

I myself wouldn't use it, but I could see it being a viable option for some people.


[This message has been edited by hellboy44 (edited 02-25-2009).]

Why not simply put a sequencer in with 32 tracks, or even unlimited tracks. Computers do this all the time. Although there is a 16 channel limit to MIDI I thought there is no limit to the tracks in a Type 1 SMF? Could be wrong, there, though...

It seems an awfully convoluted way to do things, when every sequencer program out there has no problem with 32 tracks and much more...

OTOH, who is doing full orchestral production on an arranger using the built in sequencer? Just about everyone that does that seriously has a computer DAW/sequencer...

There's also the fact that when you crossfade between songs you HAVE to have the capability to have 2 sequences going at the same time - naturally. Who knows when you want to crossfade songs and throw in a sample or three as well.

I'm very excited that the Audya has this, because, to my knowledge, no other arranger save the Korg PA1x/PA2x/800 has this ability. It really was a deal breaker/maker function for me.


All this power and multitasking ability makes the Audya a REAL contender in my eyes.