I understand Diki thinks they will go the way of the home Organ but what is he basing that assumption on? An Arranger and the Home Organ are two completely different beasts that really don't intertwine in their complexities other than the fact that Arrangers are getting more and more expensive (opposite of computer technology prices in general by the way) while Home Organs were getting extremely expensive too upon their demise from the mainstream. >> Think Wersi..

But other than the fact of these astronomical prices we're starting to see for our beloved high-end arrangers will that be the "only" reason that will finally break the camel's back and cause arrangers to disappear from the mainstream of music making?? Maybe Diki can chime in here (like he won't, right? ) and explain to us again his reasoning for arrangers going the way of the home organ.

I just don't see it really, in my opinion. I mean if arrangers go away why wouldn't Workstations go away with them as well?? High End Workstations are expensive too right? Although I do agree that there is becoming a real disparity in price with each subsequent high end Arranger released to the market. In some cases you can get a fully blown workstation for "thousands less" than some of the high-end arrangers showing up. I won't mention any names though... Of course arrangers do have a limitation (that is currently trying to be corrected and/or amended as we speak) and that is the "looped", canned, and served on the same 'dull' platter - auto-accompaniment type approach. Which is very limiting if you ask me, or for that matter, ask any other arranger keyboardist on the planet, who will most likely agree along those same lines in my humble opinion. Ketron, on the other hand, went out on a limb to try and correct that anomaly and have improved upon the concept with the Audya in that there is more randomness placed into the equation and it's probably going to be one of the big draws for people getting an Audya i.e. less of the canned approach and more of the "random" or varied approach in the style auto-accompaniment.

I imagine Yamaha, Korg, and Roland are researching how to implement "randomness" into their arranger style equation and in fact I understand Yamaha has recently applied for a patent that will indeed do just that. Will it be implemented in the Tyros4?? Who knows, but I suspect it might. If it also has 76 keys I may just get it too..

Okay, back to the "demise" of arrangers. I don't think they'll go the way of the home organ for the simple reason that arrangers are actually very portable, whilst home organs weighed a ton and were very impractical in their overall design. Just think Wersi.. Sorry Bill, but it is a well known fact that Wersi's not only cost a king's ransom they also weigh a ton to boot. And therefore are not practical, in my opinion, for the majority of gigging musicians. And when I say "majority" I mean in the neighborhood of.. oh, roughly about 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999 percent of arranger keyboardists on the planet. No offense Bill but Wersi is "set it and forget it" all the while paying a king's ransom to own it. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/frown.gif[/img] That pig just won't fly for the majority of people, however much Wersi might will or want it to happen. But I'm sure Wersi has their rich clientele who don't mind those two obvious limitations of the Wersi i.e. the weight and the price. And I'm really surprised Wersi is still holding on through this major world financial storm. More power to them if they can indeed hang on to their purse strings through these rouge wave times. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/eek.gif[/img]

Back to the demise of "portable" arrangers.. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] Why?? What have they done to deserve such a prophecy of destruction and the elimination from musician's music making arsenals? Right, nothing. I really believe arrangers WILL survive and thrive through the 21st century and possibly beyond. The Piano has survived for hundreds of years right? [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img]

Arrangers are portable (you can carry them under one arm in many instances), convenient (band in a box type scenario), reliable (some Brands more than others of course [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/wink.gif[/img]), affordable (in most cases).. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img], and they are getting more complex in how they function and operate (better sounding, etc.), and more "natural" and random as opposed to stale and canned of yesteryear - that is the goal anyway for the future, and presently concerning the Audya. When you think about it, the only thing that "really" separates arrangers from workstations is that arrangers have style auto-accompaniment whereas 'most' workstations aren't noted for their arranger aspects and capabilities. Although ALL three of the Big Three's latest Workstations do indeed have a semblance of auto-accompaniment arranger type function(s) and features on them i.e. the Motif XS, Korg M3, and Roland Fantom G series. They are much more constrained in their approach and functionality, nevertheless they still incorporate some arranger type functions in them. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/cool.gif[/img] I actually think workstations will "grow" in their arranger type capabilities and eventually they might "meld" workstations and arrangers together into "one" machine. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/smile.gif[/img] There will most likely always be a need for "digital pianos" without arranger type features or functions, but the future may indeed bring 'workstations' and 'arrangers' together as one device under one title down the road. So if that's going to be the "real" demise of arrangers I think I can live with that. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/cool.gif[/img] OTOH, if arranger type functions and features (in a keyboard form) disappear from the face of the planet, Diki may then want to think about changing his identity and assuming an alias >> because people aren't going to take it lightly, if you know what I mean. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] Who are they going to blame?? >> Diki of course, because he was the originator who conjured up such a dastardly thought and idea in the first place. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img] Watch your back dude.. [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/mad.gif[/img] [img]http://www.synthzone.com/ubbs/biggrin.gif[/img]

All the best,
Mike


[This message has been edited by keybplayer (edited 02-26-2009).]

Arrangers will Always be around as long as Yamaha makes a CVP Clavinova. Arrangers took the place of the Home Organ. Home players who are not schooled and want to play out of EZ play books love them. Apparently there is an OMB market who love them as well.

Perhaps Roland is abandoning the Arranger market, But Yamaha still has a very profitable arranger division and the technology trickled all the way down tto the $300 413.....No Arrangers aren't going away. In fact quite the opposite. I run into people everyday who did not even KNOW THEY EXIST in the form of the 900 series.

I demoed one in December with 4 watching. ALL had no idea the technology was available. All were over 50 (which was the typical organ market. Every single person in that little crowd came back in January and bought one. I sold a Tyros to someone who has been lurking this board since November, He is sight impaired and they drove down from Virgina! I spent about four hours demoing the Tyros and he bought it and a P-85 to uses as a controller.
At the end of the deal he told me he came as a result of the forum! Imaging that. Someone actually likes my blunt opinion. If you are reading, Thanks Mike....Enjoy.

hahahahah thanx for the laugh.....Arrangers are here to stay....it's the real players that keep dropping off.

What, end up with Roland having the entire market to itself?

Hi Mike

Arrangers came from Home Organs, (The 1 finger chord systems added to organs probably also led to the collapse in the 80s. (Why buy an organ when you can do the same easy play with a single keyboard)

Organs however have made a comeback, (Just not on the scale they used too be) Hammonds and there clones are all over the place, Lowery, Bohm, Wersi Orla, Allan and Roland have introduced new models, Yamahas are being imported all over the world, and Kawai has recently re-started organ production.

It seems mainly the US users that have a problem with weight, as Roland Ateliers, (Heavier then Wersi) Wersi, Bohm, Hammond and for concerts even Lowery (Now that’s weight) are played by artists all over, and never a moan about weight. (Even the female artists (Who by there physical nature should theoretically be complaining) never seem to have problems)

BTW the Wersi Xenios portable organ only weighs about 5 pounds more then a G70, and Wersi prices tend to slip into the middle/upper of organ price scales.

Will arrangers die, as we know them today, probably, will they evolve, a good certainty.

Interesting topic

Regards

Bill

Indeed they will> Baby Boomers who want to stay home and entertain themselves love them. The adult "Rock Band" I see a booming market for Arrangers. I also see an "ignorant" public as to the fact that they exist. I rarely run into tanyone who is not agahst at the technology,

AS far as freestyle arrangements,,Kurzweil did that yeasr ago to some extent. We have a trade in on one and it actually shanges whats playing based on the CHORD, whether its a minor or major...intersting.

Good thread... and some good counter arguments...

You might not take me quite so literally, though. Home organs, as you point out, are not completely dead. But in comparison to their heyday, let's just say the hearse is drawing up to the cemetery

I don't have access to sales figures, but I think just from looking at how scarce in stores these things have become, and the rise of WS loop and arp sounds becoming the norm in pop music, that arranger sales are drooping. To a large extent, the market is driven by youth. And youth is NOT buying arrangers. They are buying MoXS's, FantomG's, M3's, etc.. All keyboards that, in most cases, are CONSIDERABLY less expensive than their arranger counterparts, to be honest, they sound on the whole a lot better, definitely more contemporary and capable of making today's music. And have capabilities in MOTL models that are rare even on TOTL arrangers.

The thing is, once the younger players stopped playing organs because they didn't keep up with the synth technology and sounds of the day, and cost a fortune compared to the synths that WERE becoming the norm, those players never went back. At least not in numbers sufficiently large enough to keep the industry healthy. All that is left of this once dominant market segment is boutique organs at boutique prices.

To be honest, I see this as the future of the arranger, in the long run. No-one, in the late sixties, early seventies would have agreed that that was going to happen, just as many here don't think the same fate could occur to the arranger. But if you take the long view, many of the same factors are in play.

Unless youth can be encouraged, by the manufacturers adding WS loop and arp capabilities and contemporary sounds (and not at a $5000 price tag! Ketron, WTF were they thinking ), to start to seriously consider the arranger as a viable instrument for making TODAY'S music on, where else can the arranger go but to the happy hunting ground of the 'home organ'?

"WTF was Ketron thinking ?"

Do you think the decline of the US Dollar could be a problem ??

Using metal vs. plastic ?
Made in Italy vs. China ?

What was Korg thinking when the Oaysis was priced at $8000 ?

Or Kurzweil having prices of $6500 for a fully blown out K2600XS ?

Do you think the US distributor wants a $5000 price tag ?

It's all about economic conditions... Which happen to be the worst we've seen since the great depression ... At least that's what is in the news ...



[This message has been edited by DanO1 (edited 02-26-2009).]

Sorry, Dan, but Y K & R's current TOTL offerings are a good grand LESS than the Audya. That's a HUGE spike up in price. Without much in the way of trickle down MOTL products, Ketron have bet the farm that arranger players are willing to fork out $1500 more than a T3 for the Audya.

Kind of reminds me of the demise of organs, to be honest. They went upscale, and priced themselves out of the game...

Oh, and you MIGHT have noticed that the Oasys and the K2600 (the 2600X was an 88 weighted version of the less expensive 2600 76 note version) have both been discontinued. Ketron are perhaps learning this lesson a little late.

A $2500 MotifXS or FantomG is pretty much capable of doing all the modern keyboardist really needs in a live situation, and software rules in the studio. Getting twice as much is a tough sell, even without the recession. Let's face it, even if the recession hadn't happened, when T3's are going for $3500, a $5000 Audya was going to be a tough sell...

The ROM nature of the Audya's audio loops (except for the drums) point towards this product as being hardly future-proofed. As soon as Ketron figure out how to reliably stream more than one audio stream at a time, you are going to have to sell it. Or simply be content with the ROM styles (if you want that audio sheen) for as long as you keep it. I'm sorry, but I see this as a transitional product, at best. And an astronomically high priced transitional product at that...

Without a product that offers these capabilities down in the $2500 range, Ketron have made a very costly gamble by not offshoring like most other manufacturers have, and recognizing that build quality doesn't seem to be much of a priority compared to features (look how much flack my G70 gets!). It's a tough world out there....